Detailers Garage Lighting - Layout/Lumens help

[Freefallin2000]

Garage Specs: Single car - 35 L x 12.5 W x 8.2 H
Use: Professional Detailing
Needs/Goals: No shadows anywhere, ability to see better into interior and on side of cars.

I am a professional detailer and work out of this garage from my home. I do paint correction and ceramic coatings, and everything in between, so having no shadows and the ability to see as much as possible on the interior and sides of car is important. If you look closely at the photos, I have a florescent work light up on the headliner which puts out a good amount of light but doesn't throw over the entire interior.

I currently have (3) basic two-tube 4ft Lithonia Florescent fixtures with electronic ballasts. You will notice a hole in the ceiling where a small round light used to be. There are no studs to mount a tube fixture there unfortunately. I tried some studless mounts but it didnt work out. Any suggestions there would be great.

I am running Feit Electric 4100k 14W LED Tubes @ 1700 Lumens a piece x 6. One is buzzing and the 4100k light color is not proper temperature for a detailer. I need 5k hence the reason to go out with the old and in with the new.

I ordered 4 of the Diva LED Ready Fixtures and (8) of the Diva 2200 Lumen 5K LED 18w LED tubes for $6.99 from Bees, but have since canceled my order because I feel like I jumped the gun somewhat without consulting first. I keep reading the Maxlite fixture is a better option for the couple dollar difference per unit so I will go with those as long as its a still a solid recommendation.

I have included some photos for you to get an idea of the layout. I am going to paint the drywall semi-glass white and probably either paint the concrete wall white or cover with white plastic sheeting to help with the brightness factor and dust control.

Was really hoping someone can help guide me in the right direction regarding ceiling lighting and also wall lighting for the sides of the car/interior view. The track lighting system you see are 5k Phillips bulbs @ 900 or so lumens a piece. These are specifically for correcting swirls and scratches in paint but also double to point to the interior/wheels/tires.

The light stand to the left of the car are Par38 5k LEDs @ 1200 lumens each and it for paint correction as well. It also works well to point into the interior to see what I am doing.

The LED fixture hung temporarily at the 90* where the wall and ceiling meet to the right is a Commercial Electric 4000k rated at 3200 lumens from HD. I just had the thought to place it there to help spread light on the inside of the car for an interior job I had yesterday. Problem is I just don't know how to mount light for that purpose, how many I should have and where I should mount them. I wonder if they will throw enough light inside the car for interior work, if they should be lower or if that idea should even stay.

Sorry for such a long, drawn out post, but I would be super appreciative if someone might be able to recommend total lumens and placement to correct issues. As a professional detailer I have incredible OCD and this kind of thing makes me lose sleep at night.

Here is my plan right now for the 4 existing tube locations on the ceiling. Would like to run the same lights if more is needed if possible. Thanks in advance guys.

4 - https://beeslighting.com/maxlite-led-t8-lamp-ready/p/LSS2XT8USE4803

8 - https://www.lightup.com/t8-4ft-led-tube-22w-ballast-bypass-50w-equiv-2640-lumens-lumegen.html

Sean

 

[Platonic Solid]

Need to find 90+ CRI bulbs and/or fixtures for your application. Find something that's in your budget and we can work from there. Here's what I've found so far:

http://www.3nled.com/139.html

http://ledt8bulb.com/keystone-90-cri-led-t8-tube-kt-led15t8-48gc-950-d-5000k-15w-ballast-bypass.html

Cree LS8-80L-50K (link to Beeslighting)

CREE FP14-50L (link to shineretrofits)

 

[Freefallin2000]

Thanks Platonic. SO 90+ CRI for more accuracy is what you are saying? Can I run say the Keystone bulbs on the Maxlight fixtures?

How many lumens are you thinking I want?

How about the wall lighting idea...what are your thoughts here?

Would like to order everything ASAP, as my Racedeck floor and cabinets are on their way.

Sean

 

[Platonic Solid]

100fc at 30" workplane minimum. I'm only recommending 90+ CRI as best practice for paint correction. If that's not in the budget then the budget 80+ CRI will have to do. I don't know what kind of budget you have. No point looking at fixtures that are out of reach. For wall lighting I'd go with 1x4 LED edge lit - again 90+ CRI if financially feasible 80+ CRI if not. This really all comes down to budget.

 

[Freefallin2000]

I would say for the entire lighting project I would like to keep it under $500 if possible. That is with replacing the 4 on the ceiling plus adding whatever else I need in. I would like to spend as little as possible.

One important thing I forgot to mention is that I never have the ceiling lights on for paint correction, just my concentrated BR30 5k track Par38 5k stand lighting. I the only reason I thought about doing lights on the sides of the walls is to see the interiors and side of the cars better for wiping off ceramic coatings and for rinseless washing inside, etc.

These peak my interest and have a CRI of 80+. Thoughts? https://www.samsclub.com/sams/2pack-led-shop-light-sh445505b299/prod21228695.ip?xid=plp:product:1:2

 

[Platonic Solid]

FYI, as far as getting the most coverage from a fixture is concerned, the 45° mounted fixture you mounted is good. If you had a continuous line like that on both sides you would eliminate most shadows and I'd expect you to have fairly decent lighting inside the vehicles.

 

[Freefallin2000]

FYI, as far as getting the most coverage from a fixture is concerned, the 45° mounted fixture you mounted is good. If you had a continuous line like that on both sides you would eliminate most shadows and I'd expect you to have fairly decent lighting inside the vehicles.

I was thinking of doing 3 or 4 on each side of the car pointing down at a 45* like I have it now. Glad you agree on that method for mounting, I like how they are way up there and out of the way.

Since the Honeywell light I linked up has clear lenses, are these going to blind me? I like how you can link them and also they are 5k and put out healthy lumens.

 

[Platonic Solid]

OK $500- budget = better stick with 80 CRI and no LED edge lit panels. With your low ceiling you can get away with shop lights like you linked to or 4ft strip lights. You don't want high lumen fixtures as that will just blind you. Lots of medium lumen fixtures to eliminate shadows.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I was thinking of doing 3 or 4 on each side of the car pointing down at a 45* like I have it now. Glad you agree on that method for mounting, I like how they are way up there and out of the way.

Since the Honeywell light I linked up has clear lenses, are these going to blind me? I like how you can link them and also they are 5k and put out healthy lumens.

Clear lens is not acceptable. find something else.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Many guys on the forum here seem to like the Costco Feit deal: https://www.costco.com/Feit-Electri...ith-Pull-Chain,-2-pack.product.100284402.html. It has a frosted lens. Not very efficient, but at that price you can't have everything and you could do quite a few at both corners.

 

[Freefallin2000]

How many lumens per fixture would you suggest? Too bad the light I have mounted at the 90* is the incorrect color temp. Its linkable for a frosted lens. Maxlight fixtures with tubes from Bees? Would I be better off running 3-4 single tub fixtures at the 90* versus dual tube 4ft fixtures?

 

[Platonic Solid]

Fixture placement and quantity are more important at lower ceiling heights. I'll do a test at 3700 lumens. hang on.

 

[Freefallin2000]

OK thanks man I seriously appreciate the help. I like t he Costco lights as well but they are 4k. I have 4k now and its totally fine for general stuff. Guess I just wanted 5k everywhere unless its not going to make a big difference.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Can't you have 4K everywhere instead of 5K?

You need a total of 74000 lumens, thus you'd need 8 fixtures @ 45° on 2 side walls and 2 on each end (which would be ceiling mounted since you can't very well corner mount fixtures over the garage door.

 

[Freefallin2000]

Also wondering what spread pattern I would want?

Was thinking 3 of these at the 90*:
https://beeslighting.com/maxlite-led-t8-lamp-ready/p/LSS1XT8USE4802

4 of these on the ceiling:
https://beeslighting.com/maxlite-led-t8-lamp-ready/p/LSS2XT8USE4803

With these tubes for everything:
https://beeslighting.com/diva-light-led-t8-lamp/p/T8R-22L-50K-DM

 

[Freefallin2000]

Can't you have 4K everywhere instead of 5K?

You need a total of 74000 lumens, thus you'd need 8 fixtures @ 45° on 2 side walls and 2 on each end (which would be ceiling mounted since you can't very well corner mount fixtures over the garage door.

When you say 2 lights at each end, where are you referring to?

And 4k everywhere wouldn't really bother me I suppose. I just prefer 5k I guess.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Also wondering what spread pattern I would want?

Was thinking 3 of these at the 90*:
https://beeslighting.com/maxlite-led-t8-lamp-ready/p/LSS1XT8USE4802

4 of these on the ceiling:
https://beeslighting.com/maxlite-led-t8-lamp-ready/p/LSS2XT8USE4803

With these tubes for everything:
https://beeslighting.com/diva-light-led-t8-lamp/p/T8R-22L-50K-DM

If you have reflectors like the shop light mounted at 45° then I wouldn't worry about beam spread. If you're dealing with retrofit lamps in 4ft strip fixtures mounted like you're talking above then the 180° beam spread of the lamp you linked to is good for your ceiling height. Not sure what you're getting at above as that totals 24,200 lumens, which is 50,000 lumens short of what I told you.

 

[Platonic Solid]

When you say 2 lights at each end, where are you referring to?

20 fixtures: 8 per side/length @ 45°, 2 per end/width @45° or ceiling mounted.

 

[Freefallin2000]

If you have reflectors like the shop light mounted at 45° then I wouldn't worry about beam spread. If you're dealing with retrofit lamps in 4ft strip fixtures mounted like you're talking above then the 180° beam spread of the lamp you linked to is good for your ceiling height. Not sure what you're getting at above as that totals 24,200 lumens, which is 50,000 lumens short of what I told you.

20 fixtures: 8 per side/length @ 45°, 2 per end/width @45° or ceiling mounted.

"2 per end" meaning what/how exactly? I am going to have 4 on the ceiling spaced evenly apart. Are you saying I am putting 2 additional lights on each end of the garage (front and back) to make a total of 8 lights on the ceiling?

I am looking at going with the Bees Bulbs and Maxlight fixtures with will give me 3600 lumens/fixture of 5k. If you want 8 on each side @ the 45*, it would make sense to keep just the 4 on my ceiling + 1 more fixture to achieve the total end number of recommended lumens you are wanting me to get to. This would get me to 75,600 which is slightly more.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Where did 4 fixtures come from? I only see 2 in the pictures. Make a dimensioned sketch of your plan and I'll review it.

 

[Freefallin2000]

Where did 4 fixtures come from? I only see 2 in the pictures. Make a dimensioned sketch of your plan and I'll review it.

I am not good with that kind of thing but I will see what I can do when I have some free time. I currently have 3 lights on the ceiling like I mentioned. There will be a 4th going where the hole in the ceiling is directly over the hood of the car.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Pencil, paper and tape measure is all that's required.

 

[Freefallin2000]

Here are some 90 CRI bulbs but they are a 240* beam throw...


https://www.prolighting.com/led-lig...llast-bypass-lamps/kt-led15t8-48gc-950-d.html

 

[Olariu]

Platonic Solid, may I jump in here with a similar question as to lighting layout? I have a 3-bay garage and am going to build one wall to create a detailing bay which will be 23.5 ft. x 12 ft. Since I am in central PA I want it insulated and heated. I am pretty well set on the basics but my head is spinning as to lighting. I am assuming all LED but after lurking here on the forum, I am still befuddled as to where to start. I want lighting on the walls and ceiling but how do you ensure even lighting to minimize shadows?

I have a full time job and only do detailing on the side. Nevertheless, I want to do it right with a bit of "wow" factor. I think I read on one of your posts that you do lighting design. I would be happy to pay for that!

Attached is a scaled plan of the garage. It was drawn at 1/4 inch to 1 foot. I was trying to make it fit an 8.5 x 11 sheet.

Jeff

 

[Platonic Solid]

Olariu - You're missing ceiling height. I don't bother with windows and doors for basic general lighting layouts except to try to avoid ceiling obstacles like garage door openers and garage track supports. All light will create shadows somewhere. The key is to try to cancel out or reduce the shadows created from 1 fixture with another fixture. The fewer fixtures you use, the harder this is to achieve.

I design and manufacture light fixtures. Doing layouts is just something I picked up along the way. Try playing with the options posted here (link)

 

[Olariu]

PS - Thanks. I will check out. BTW,. the ceiling height is 8' 6".

JS

 

[Platonic Solid]

Olariu - At 8'6" the best bang for your buck will be 4ft LED strip lights or some of the budget LED shop lights.

 

[Olariu]

PS - can you ballpark the number of 4 ft. strips for the ceiling and on the walls? I just ran the program from your supplied link. It only call for three 4 ft. strip lights (5500 lumens per strip I think) right down the middle of the long side of the garage bay. I thought is would call for more. I am inclined to run some down the ceiling along the edges too. Although the wall lights would take care of most of that.

Is this overkill? See:

Jeff

 

[Olariu]

PS - UPDATE. In the Visual Interior Tool program the default lighting fc recommendation is based on only 30 footcandles. The recommendations for body shops I found on-line are 80-120. So, using say 100 fc, the ceiling plan goes up to eight 4 ft. LED strips (5344 lumens, which seems to be on the higher side of the spectrum compare to other fixtures). I could not find a way to input wall light (obviously, a specialty application). Long story short, your links give me a good starting point. Thank you.

Jeff

 

[Platonic Solid]

Olariu - Interesting video. I strongly disagree with the clear lensed LED lamps shown in that video as that would make detailing a potentially eye damaging and certainly an unnecessarily painful experience. It's pretty obvious that neither of the people in the video are lighting designers.

Note that I did state: "Insert 100fc or your desired level at workplane in the illuminance criteria box." in the instructions for the Visual tool, but that is for mechanical work. Detailing will end up higher. What you don't want is a few high output fixtures. What you do want is many medium output fixtures. The video did get me laughing when he states low output light will not reach the car - this is just plain wrong. The Visual tool is not the right tool for this application.

Another important consideration for this application is heat. All lighting wattage used will be turned into heat (BTU). Input Watts x 3.4 = BTU. Need to know what climate zone you are in and whether the space has AC.

If this is a "how cheap can I get" goal, I lose interest pretty quickly. (In other words - start talking Cosco shop lights and I throw in the towel) For a professional detailing shop - I would opt for continuous rows of 1x4 edge lit flat panels (link) on dimmers. To take this to the next level, the CCT changing option would be very interesting in such an application.

 

[Olariu]

PS - great comments. And I DID miss your instructions on the 100 fc...oops. .

I am in central PA. No A/C in the garage just winter heat.

Jeff

 

[Olariu]

PS - those flat panel LEDs look really good. You recommend many medium lumen output fixtures. That would be the 3250 ones or 4400? I assume the 5000 and 5200 ones are too bright for my application.

Jeff

 

[Platonic Solid]

Olariu - I think this is an ideal application for using the dimming feature, thus you can opt for the higher output and turn down to your preference.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Something like this:

images linked to larger image












​

Here's the Dialux PDF Report (link)

Cabinet door will hit wall mounted light fixture.
Desk makes lighting lower front of car difficult. Same with garage door.
Fixture spec used: 1ft x 4ft Flat Panel LED - 40 Watts - Dimmable - DLC 4.2 Premium Approved - 5,000 Lumens (link)
$40 ea x 22 fixtures = $880
Recommend 2 separate dimming circuits: 1 for ceiling and 1 for wall lights.
I would relocate back mounted drivers from wall mounted fixtures to reduce fixture protrusion.

Edit:
Recommend Flat White Ceiling paint, White Eggshell walls, anything to improve floor reflectance will help with lower front and rear deficiency.

 

[Olariu]

PS - WOW! Thank you Sir! This is fantastic. You nailed an incredible light plan. I will go with what you recommend. I assume the illustrations depict contours of lumens on the surface? Looks like even the lower front of the car will have 75-80 which is good.

As to your painting recommendation. That combination is what I had planned on doing. LOL.

Jeff

BTW - I sent you a PM.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Yes, illustrations depict footcandle contours.

You'll need the LumeGen 1x4 LED Panel Surface Mount kit (or similar) for the ceiling fixtures $24. You'll have to get creative with the wall mount panels, but should be fairly simple - still just need to figure out where to put the relocated drivers.

 

[thickhead]

I cant get over the freakin’ work Platonic Solid does for this forum!
The time spent and knowledge shared blows my mind seeing the info just in this thread.
Amazing. Bravo and thank you!

 

[Olariu]

PS, I assume the surface mount kits could be used for the walls too? In fact, the description at the LightUp site does mention wall applications. I did check out the video at LightUp. The driver is not large; perhaps attach to stud behind the fixture. A near flush placement would look great, BUT how would you attach the light fixture to the wall? I am noob so the solution may be obvious, to you anyway!

Let me echo thickhead's post above. Your sharing of expertise here on the board is extraordinary. I have been researching garage lighting for DAYS, and your knowledge is exceptional. Lighting technology is evolving so quickly it is hard for a 'layman' to know what to do other than get some LED shoplights. The cost of materials according to your design is pretty modest for what would be a knockout result.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Olariu - I have no personal experience with the surface mount kit, but you're right - it does state wall mount also. That's certainly the easiest method. Might even be a handy mini shelf.

To mount flush to the wall you'd need to make a bracket with 1/2" x 1/2" notch. This could be made of wood, if you have a router. Might be able to locate some pre-existing aluminum extrusion. The down side is finding a future accessible location for the drivers.

Edit - The surface mount frame is only 2.5" deep. Any bracket you make from wood would end up being 1" deep. Not sure it's worth the hassle to make custom mounting brackets and relocate the drivers for 1.5" benefit.

 

[Olariu]

PS - Sounds like I will take the easy route and use the mounting kits all around. Thanks for pointing out the need for the kits. I will post a before and after photo here. The contractor I have said he can do the project this winter between some other jobs. I am curious what my electrician will say when I show him the lighting plan! LOL

Jeff