Anyone ever built a garage in a flood zone?

[reader2580]

I have a three acre property with a good acre of open land perfect for building a garage. The problem is in 2015 FEMA revised the flood maps and now all of the open land on my property is in a flood zone. The city says building in a flood zone is not allowed. They would allow me to build a car port type structure.

Has anyone built a garage in a flood zone? The main concern with a building in a flood zone appears to be that the building it self would displace water and cause the flood water to rise that much higher.

I know there are designs for houses in flood zones where essentially they build a crawl space underneath that fills with water in a flood. My uncle lost his house in hurricane Sandy and it was rebuilt with a tall crawl space that fills with water in a flood. Maybe that could be done with a garage, but I think the foundation would cost more than the structure part of the garage. Right now it would be pretty much financially impossible to move. I’ve done a ton of work to this house that I wouldn’t want to do again on another house.

 

[GMCGarage]

Most garages would not be water tight, and thus would not displace that much water. Could you even get it insured, or the contents.

Dont do it. Just a headache.

 

[Firebrick43]

I don't want to pay to insure your structure just because you want to build something where nothing should be built. I and other tax payers are sick of getting "soaked" to pay for rebuilding structures time and time again.

 

[matt_i]

Can you just fill part of the low area to match the non flood-zone area of your property? It might take some time to acquire that much clean fill for a low-enough price and you'd risk building on disturbed soil if not carefully compacted. There are probably an entire set of rules on that as well but functionally it seems to make sense.

 

[stm317]

Most garages would not be water tight, and thus would not displace that much water.

The concern isn't just the building displacing water. It's the fact that the building is likely elevated above the surrounding ground, creates water runoff, and won't allow water to soak into the ground beneath it as easily.

Could you even get it insured, or the contents.

Maybe possible, but I wouldn't want to pay the premiums for it.

Dont do it. Just a headache.

I agree.

 

[Radix2]

What is your actual situation?

The city will not issue a building permit in a flood zone - is an alternative design even a possibility? Can you appeal the flood designation? Is the land actually low/along a river, has it flooded, is it lower than your other land?

Might consult with a surveyor to see what the actual elevation is.

 

[garagelogician]

I have a three acre property with a good acre of open land perfect for building a garage. The problem is in 2015 FEMA revised the flood maps and now all of the open land on my property is in a flood zone. The city says building in a flood zone is not allowed. They would allow me to build a car port type structure.

Has anyone built a garage in a flood zone? The main concern with a building in a flood zone appears to be that the building it self would displace water and cause the flood water to rise that much higher.

I know there are designs for houses in flood zones where essentially they build a crawl space underneath that fills with water in a flood. My uncle lost his house in hurricane Sandy and it was rebuilt with a tall crawl space that fills with water in a flood. Maybe that could be done with a garage, but I think the foundation would cost more than the structure part of the garage. Right now it would be pretty much financially impossible to move. I’ve done a ton of work to this house that I wouldn’t want to do again on another house.

Flood zone determinations are usually based on very approximate elevation data and tend to be very conservative. Are you close to a river or lake? How much lower is the open space on your property compared to where your house is located?

I would advise talking to a few land surveyors to get a topographic survey done so that you can request a final flood zone determination from FEMA. Surveyed elevation data could be quite a bit different than the elevations that FEMA is using.

 

[reader2580]

I guess I won't ever be building a garage then. The costs to move would be more than half the cost to build a garage. My house is not in the flood zone so at least I don't have to buy flood insurance for it.

FEMA apparently doesn't think the chances of flooding are really that great because they hand out LOMAs like they are candy. Just about every house in the neighborhood that is in the flood zone has a LOMA so they don't have to buy flood insurance.

I'm concerned if I could even rebuild my garage if it was destroyed and the house wasn't destroyed. My house value would probably drop by 20% without a garage. If both were destroyed I would rebuild the house in another location on the lot so the garage is not in a flood zone.

 

[Gerald O]

What about building an 'attached' garage? Often the rules are quite different when the building is an 'addition' to the existing dwelling -- in effect it is considered part of the dwelling. I had to do this to circumvent setback and size rules for accessory buildings.

 

[01-7700]

I guess I won't ever be building a garage then. The costs to move would be more than half the cost to build a garage. My house is not in the flood zone so at least I don't have to buy flood insurance for it.

FEMA apparently doesn't think the chances of flooding are really that great because they hand out LOMAs like they are candy. Just about every house in the neighborhood that is in the flood zone has a LOMA so they don't have to buy flood insurance.

I'm concerned if I could even rebuild my garage if it was destroyed and the house wasn't destroyed. My house value would probably drop by 20% without a garage. If both were destroyed I would rebuild the house in another location on the lot so the garage is not in a flood zone.

So what's stopping you from pursuing a LOMA ?

 

[jacks2000]

I was on the local planning/zoning commission for several years. Flood zones are a very inexact science. Check around for a good surveyor who understands the FEMA rules. Possibly fill material from your own land could build up the site and offset the raised area with a retention pond.

 

[reader2580]

What is your actual situation?

The city will not issue a building permit in a flood zone - is an alternative design even a possibility? Can you appeal the flood designation? Is the land actually low/along a river, has it flooded, is it lower than your other land?

Might consult with a surveyor to see what the actual elevation is.

My detached garage is in the flood zone and the house is not. The garage is floor is maybe a foot lower than the house floor. The part of the lot that is in the flood zone is maybe a few feet lower than the elevation of the basement floor. (I have a walkout basement.)

When I bought the house part of the reason I bought it is because it is high and dry with great drainage. I am not near a river, stream, or lake. I am about a quarter mile from a wildlife management area that has wetlands.

I could apply for a letter of map revision (LOMR) from FEMA, but I could spend a ton of money for nothing. I'm wondering if anyone here has had an alternative design approved for a flood zone.

 

[reader2580]

So what's stopping you from pursuing a LOMA ?

A LOMA is for an existing building, not a new building. I could apply for a LOMA for my current garage, but not for a new garage. I have not pursued a LOMA for my current garage as the cost would pay for a year or two of flood insurance.

 

[66Caprice]

Gump! Where is Gump!
Do like they said you could do. Build a carport with a gravel floor in it.
I personally think it's a bad idea either way. But hell up here in Washington state we still have people building in the flood plane of the Skagit river. Now they are on TV crying because the Skagit want's to take the land from them.....

 

[denis4x4]

What is your actual situation?

The city will not issue a building permit in a flood zone - is an alternative design even a possibility? Can you appeal the flood designation? Is the land actually low/along a river, has it flooded, is it lower than your other land?

Might consult with a surveyor to see what the actual elevation is.

Part of my property is deemed a FEMA flood zone. I have an Army Corps of Engineers certificate of elevation for the house showing that the first floor is above the flood zone....thus I'm able to buy over priced flood insurance with crappy coverage.

However, FEMA is cracking down on counties that are handing out LOMAs and with holding federal grants to these counties.

As I posted in a similar thread earlier today, it was your responsibility to know the rules and zoning when you bought the property.

 

[garagelogician]

My detached garage is in the flood zone and the house is not. The garage is floor is maybe a foot lower than the house floor. The part of the lot that is in the flood zone is maybe a few feet lower than the elevation of the basement floor. (I have a walkout basement.)

When I bought the house part of the reason I bought it is because it is high and dry with great drainage. I am not near a river, stream, or lake. I am about a quarter mile from a wildlife management area that has wetlands.

I could apply for a letter of map revision (LOMR) from FEMA, but I could spend a ton of money for nothing. I'm wondering if anyone here has had an alternative design approved for a flood zone.

I'd say you have a very good case for getting a LOMR with just a simple survey. Flood zone determinations are often based on 10-ft contours, and if the elevation change is minimal in the area, none of your property may even be in the flood zone.

If you really want to build a new garage and not move, I think spending a couple grand to get this done would be very worthwhile.

Here are a few companies to call in the area:
https://www.pioneereng.com/
http://www.sunde.com/
http://www.kurthsurveyinginc.com/index.html (probably a little cheaper, not as busy as the big companies, but they do good work).

 

[reader2580]

However, FEMA is cracking down on counties that are handing out LOMAs and with holding federal grants to these counties.

As I posted in a similar thread earlier today, it was your responsibility to know the rules and zoning when you bought the property.

The property was not in a flood zone when I bought the property. FEMA changed the flood maps in Dec 2015.

I did so much research before buying the property that I am pretty sure the city was sick of hearing from me. I spent hours reading city code to verify what I could build. I requested the building file with all of the permits and such over the years. I even verified with the city that I could build what I wanted in the location I wanted to build. I went to city hall multiple times to talk with them. The building/zoning department was telling me a garage is limited to the height of the house and they couldn't tell me what page in the code said that. I had to go to the city administrator who finally came back and said garages could be 45 feet tall. The building official even went out to the property several times to answer my questions.

 

[denis4x4]

reader2580, I'm aware that FEMA changes the boundries with little or no notice. We saw that here when the previous administration extended the 100 year flood plain boundries into areas that were never effected. I can't help but wonder if that didn't create additional premiums as FEMA was paying out way more than they were taking in.

 

[EOC_Jason]

There are different kinds of flood zones... Flood way, 100 yr, 500 yr, etc, etc..

Some places you just should not build, period. Others they will allow you to build provided two factors. One is that you build a high enough elevation that is above whatever the 100 year flood height is or more. Also you would have to build a detention pond to equal the area you are now making impervious.

A bigger issue is if you can get it insured. Would you be able to get flood insurance? Would your regular insurance even want to cover it in your homeowners policy (non-flood)???

It's really something you would have to talk about an engineer in your area about. They know the regulations and what is and is not possible.

While you might not be able to build a permanent structure, i.e. something with a slab. Most areas consider "sheds" (like a pre-built with a wood floor) as temporary structures and thus under a different set of guidelines.

 

[reader2580]

I talked to the city earlier in the week about building a yard shed. Not possible in the flood zone. I need a place to mount 12 solar panels and was thinking a shed would give me a roof for the solar and space to store my riding mower and yard tools.

I have been told that you can’t just mound up dirt to get a building above flood elevation. The worry is that a flood would wash away the dirt.

 

[01-7700]

The worry is that a flood would wash away the dirt.

The tax collectors have so many worries.

 

[misurveyor]

I talked to the city earlier in the week about building a yard shed. Not possible in the flood zone. I need a place to mount 12 solar panels and was thinking a shed would give me a roof for the solar and space to store my riding mower and yard tools.

I have been told that you can’t just mound up dirt to get a building above flood elevation. The worry is that a flood would wash away the dirt.

As a surveyor that does dozens of elevation certificates and LOMA'S every year I can tell you that there a lot of ways to legally construct in an area that FEMA thinks is in the 1% annual chance of flood.
The term 100 year flood isn't used anymore because people couldn't understand how they could be flooded more than once in their lifetime.
Many good ideas have been stated already.
First step is to verify that your are actually in the flood plain. FEMA maps are terrible.
If the area is out you can do a LOMA on the area you want removed. It does not have to have a structure. Once you remove an area you can do whatever you want.
If you are in the FP still have options. Moving dirt within the property as mentioned above is one. In MI you are allowed a small amount of fill so long as you get a permit.
A good surveyor will be able to help.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Lelandwelds]

An acquaintance had the map changed on his house. He hired a specialist surveyor who more accurately measured the actual elevation of his house by comparing it to a marker near his house. His place was like twelve feet above the build/no build line. The map had it something like 20 feet below.

Have you ever heard "close enough for government work"? The feds dont try very hard to be fair and accurate.

 

[mfs54729]

Are you sure your property is in a flood zone and not just the FEMA maps showing your property is in a flood zone.

I've owned my property for 27 years and it was never in the flood zone. A year ago the bank comes to me and says I have to get flood insurance because my property is in the flood zone. I found out that when the FEMA maps were redrawn they used a coarser elevation granularity so that showed many properties being in the flood zone that really weren't in the flood zone. I ended up getting an elevation survey that showed that my house was at an elevation of X and the flood zone was at an elevation of X-Y. This allowed FEMA to issue me a LOMA and now the bank is happy.

Mark

 

[Orionrising]

And there's no reason for it. We are now getting 1-2 foot or better lidar data. You can literally see stone wall and dirt roads on it

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[ard]

Are you sure your property is in a flood zone and not just the FEMA maps showing your property is in a flood zone.

I've owned my property for 27 years and it was never in the flood zone. A year ago the bank comes to me and says I have to get flood insurance because my property is in the flood zone. I found out that when the FEMA maps were redrawn they used a coarser elevation granularity so that showed many properties being in the flood zone that really weren't in the flood zone. I ended up getting an elevation survey that showed that my house was at an elevation of X and the flood zone was at an elevation of X-Y. This allowed FEMA to issue me a LOMA and now the bank is happy.

Mark

Same thing happened to my sister...got an LOMA and then got out of the mandatory insurance.

But then she had a 1000 year flood due to all the concrete, development and 'climate change', and her home got destroyed. Since she had no insurance, she is bankrupt after loosing $400k in equity.

Damn FEMA.

 

[reader2580]

I mentioned earlier that my uncle lost his house in hurricane Sandy. It took quite a while to even start rebuilding because of insurance companies. There was lot of arguing if it was a flood, hurricane, or tropical storm that destroyed his house. Somehow the insurance payouts were different if it was a hurricane or tropical storm. I think he had flood insurance, but not sure.

He ended up getting a $100,000 government grant to help rebuild his house. If government had to spend any money to help him they should have paid him not to rebuild right on the ocean. It is a virtual certainty the house will be damaged by weather again even though the house was elevated and is designed to flood four to six feet with no damage to the house.

 

[Thumper68]

Same thing happened to my sister...got an LOMA and then got out of the mandatory insurance.

But then she had a 1000 year flood due to all the concrete, development and 'climate change', and her home got destroyed. Since she had no insurance, she is bankrupt after loosing $400k in equity.

Damn FEMA.

How is that FEMA's fault? she requested the LOMA and didn't get the Ins so it is who's fault?

No offense to your sis I feel for her but....

 

[Mikeske]

Gump! Where is Gump!
Do like they said you could do. Build a carport with a gravel floor in it.
I personally think it's a bad idea either way. But hell up here in Washington state we still have people building in the flood plane of the Skagit river. Now they are on TV crying because the Skagit want's to take the land from them.....

http://komonews.com/news/local/home-teeter-on-edge-of-skagit-river

I have always had a issue with folks that build next to rivers and then expect the government to bail them out also. I feel sorry for the folks that lost the property but the river will take what it wants. I am guessing the properties will never be built again.

 

[reader2580]

How is that FEMA's fault? she requested the LOMA and didn't get the Ins so it is who's fault?

No offense to your sis I feel for her but....

I think the feeling is FEMA shouldn't have approved the LOMA if the property was still in danger of flooding.

Flood insurance is only mandatory if you have a mortgage. You can do whatever you wish if you own the house free and clear. Flood insurance is significantly cheaper if not in a flood zone. I have heard it is up to ten times less not in a flood zone. It makes sense if you if get a LOMA to still buy flood insurance.

Flood insurance maxes out at $250,000 coverage. If the sister lost $400,000 she still wouldn't have been full covered.

 

[reader2580]

Gump! Where is Gump!
Do like they said you could do. Build a carport with a gravel floor in it.

A carport does nothing except keep the rain and snow off my motorhome. It can't be heated or cooled. It can't used for storage. It can't be used for a shop either. I am thinking I could make roll up cloth walls to keep wind out.

 

[ard]

How is that FEMA's fault? she requested the LOMA and didn't get the Ins so it is who's fault?

No offense to your sis I feel for her but....

Oh totally agree. People think they are smart 'gettin round that government BS'...until it bites you

FEMA is just a great target no matter what ails you...

 

[raferguson]

In Florida, the standard solution is to build the building on stilts. Would it be too expensive to build a building on stilts that would be strong enough to support a car? Maybe. If you put in enough piers, it may not be crazy expensive to have a raised garage. I saw one reference that said that a garage needs to be able to support a 2000 pound tire load anywhere in the garage, not just where the tires would logically go. A 2000 pound point load does not sound that crazy to me. Imagine a series of steel beams carrying the load, preferably over a short span.

What about parking the vehicle under the shop? I am more interested in the shop than whether or not I can get a vehicle inside; a shop building on stilts with parking below would be just fine for my purposes. Perhaps you could enclose the space below after the final inspection; I am sure that has been done to get around the rules.

How about making part of the garage/shop strong enough to support a vehicle, with the rest of the shop lighter construction? The premise is a raised floor, whether a crawl space or stilts.

If they are worried about soil washing away, put your foundation well below grade, such that the concrete foundation protects the soil that supports the floor. Certainly people have altered the soil level around their buildings, perhaps lowering the grade level in some areas, while raising it for the building.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/07/building-flood-plain-drainage-architects

This might be a good time to talk to an engineer, who might help you sort out your options. This could be a structural engineer, or perhaps a civil engineer who could help you figure out what you might be able to do to make the land help you. An engineer's view could help you figure out which way to go.

Generally speaking, the government accepts drawings with the stamps of a professional engineer. The folks in the government office are not qualified to the level of a professional engineer, so it is hard for them to argue.

 

[HOTFR8]

You would never get a permit to build here. My question is if you know it is a flood zone why would you even consider building in that location.

 

[raferguson]

https://pilotonline.com/business/fl...cle_5f6229da-89ee-5455-a039-73c0c516d5b7.html - Flood vents.

Lots of good ideas in this article, such as raising any critical equipment, such as furnaces or air conditioning.

 

[raferguson]

One more item: The 100 year floodplain map may not be accurate. Extreme weather can and does cause flooding outside the 100 year floodplain area. The 100 year floodplain map is statistical, and makes certain assumptions, which may or may not be valid. In some places, property outside the 100 year flood plain has flooded repeatedly, demonstrating the weakness of the system. The real experts understand the weakness of their assumptions, and I have seem them admit them. Climate change/variation is another factor making the predictions less accurate.

Personally, I would aim to be out of the 500 year flood plain area.

I am more sensitive to this issue, having ripped out drywall from my basement after an unusually heavy rain. It was all clean water, seeping through the concrete. A big mess and a big hassle, and I only had 1 inch of clean water. This happened a few months after my hydrologist friend, with a PHD, assured me that flooding in our block was not possible..... But he did not say anything about seepage.

 

[slip knot]

I HAD a shop in a flood plain. we got flooded 4 times and each time it was a real PITA. we knew where the water levels would be and had all the electricals mounted 4ft off the floor. when the water would come up we opened the doors and let it flow thru. last time the river was predicted to get to 28ft, we would be ok. it wound up cresting at 32ft. we had a lot of work to do after that one.

I was never so happy to get rid of that place.

Never again.

 

[Roberts210]

Hint: It's called a Flood Zone for a reason.

 

[reader2580]

There are two other options I am thinking about, but they would both cost a good $20,000. I might be able to buy 1/2 acre or an acre from the neighbor as his lot is long and narrow. I am not sure if I could meet setbacks with my septic mound and the narrow width of the property. It would not be convenient as just walking 50 feet out the door. I might not use the building much in winter if I have to walk all the way around my property to get there.

Option two I might be able to build a new septic mound, but not sure on this as I probably can’t put that in a flood zone either. I could then build in backyard not in flood zone, but the backyard would get awful crowded. A future buyer is going to wonder why all they can see is a giant building out the back windows instead of the nice view now, especially when there is an acre plus of empty land.

In either case I would need a paved driveway by city code. If I could place the building off by existing driveway I could go with gravel to save costs.

 

[rnixon]

There is an exemption , but you have to research it yourself. My property is not only in a FEMA flood zone ,it is in a FEMA floodway and the site for my new garage was less than 100 ft. from the Connecticut River. I went through everything you're dealing with now. However in my case resolving the issue was quite simple, with no thanks to all those "helpful" Local, State and Federal agencies.
My distrust of government caused me to research the Statutes covering the enforcement of FEMA regulations. When the Town building inspector called to inform me , due to flood zone regulations, he could not issue my requested permit, I informed him of the results of my research.

Giving him the benefit of doubt, he was genuinely surprised, or at least he appeared to be, he stammered for a moment, then said ,he would check with the Town's Legal dept., and get back to me.

The inspector called me the next day ,he apologized for the "misunderstanding" said my permit would be in the mail and gave me verbal authorization to begin construction

FEMA regulations, are just that, regulations they are not duly enacted Laws of the United States and cannot be enforced ex post facto. My home was built prior to 1978, therefore, in my State, Massachusetts, my property is subject to the regulations in effect when I acquired the property in 1972. of course I had to find that out myself. I hope it's just as easy for you.

My garage went up in October, and now with the snow on the ground, my toys have a new home