Is it okay to run 120V and 240V in the same conduit?

[ScD]

I just finished installing a new Bend Pak 2 post lift and am getting ready to wire it. The lift runs on 240V single phase. I have a 2 pole 25A breaker in my panel and plan on running 10 gauge THHN wire to the lift in ¾ inch EMT.

I also have a spare single pole 20A breaker in the panel and was thinking it would be handy to have a 120V outlet mounted on the lift.

Would it be okay to run both circuits in the same conduit? If yes can both circuits share a common ground?

 

[vekster]

No problem at all as long as the ground needs to be sized for the larger load.

 

[ScD]

Thanks! I plan on using 10 gauge for the 240V circuit and 12 gauge for the 120V circuit.

So if I use 10 gauge for the common ground will I be good to go?

 

[Redwolf947]

I'm not going to say vekster is wrong but he is from Canada the codes are different than ours. I don't know the answer to this in the US. Just hope a GJ sparky form the US chimes in.

 

[larry_g]

If yes can both circuits share a common ground?

Just to be clear are you talking earth ground or neutral?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[sberry]

There is not really a neutral here but a grounded conductor for the 120V, yes you can use the same pipe or a 10 wire as a grounding conductor to both circuits, this is common.

 

[ScD]

Just to be clear are you talking earth ground or neutral?

I talking earth ground. Except for the common ground both circuits will be totally separate each with their own breaker. The 120V circuit will have a hot, neutral, and a ground. The 240V circuit will be 2 hot wires and a ground.

 

[sberry]

The 120 has an ungrounded conductor, a grounded conductor and a equipment grounding conductor. No neutral.

 

[Speedy Petey]

The 120 has an ungrounded conductor, a grounded conductor and a equipment grounding conductor. No neutral.

Come on, we all know that the term "neutral" is a common and widely accepted term for the grounded conductor.
Saying there is no neutral only serves to confuse lay people.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Come on, we all know that the term "neutral" is a common and widely accepted term for the grounded conductor.
Saying there is no neutral only serves to confuse lay people.

 

[malibu101]

Come on, we all know that the term "neutral" is a common and widely accepted term for the grounded conductor.
Saying there is no neutral only serves to confuse lay people.

I agree a widely accepted term is neutral but to be technical, like NEC.
A 120V circuit has an ungrounded conductor (hot), a grounded conductor (neutral), and a grounding conductor (green earth ground).
If a lay person does not know the difference between a neutral and a grounded conductor (the same) maybe that lay person shouldn't be playing with electricity.

 

[sberry]

We got code quoters over a cable clamp, how is it a problem to get right one of the most fundamental principles in modern wiring.
While some may recognize the term earth ground that is not really the proper for the egc either.

 

[theoldwizard1]

When running mixed voltage in the same conduit are their any code requirements for unique color codes ? Obviously you would use red as one of the "hots" for the 240v circuit, but does code require you to run something else, like blue instead of black, for the other "hot" ?

 

[Speedy Petey]

While some may recognize the term earth ground that is not really the proper for the egc either.

Apples and oranges.

Neutral = grounded conductor
"Earth ground" has NEVER = equipment grounding conductor

 

[Speedy Petey]

If a lay person does not know the difference between a neutral and a grounded conductor (the same) maybe that lay person shouldn't be playing with electricity.

I disagree.
In my normal life I NEVER use the term "grounded conductor". It's "neutral". Everyone I know is the same. Maybe it's a location thing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No problem at all as long as the ground needs to be sized for the larger load.

We have the same code here!

Just to be clear are you talking earth ground or neutral?

lg
no neat sig line

An earth ground is a different animal than an EGC/ground.

Dont confuse the 2! They serve different purposes!

Read this:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

There is not really a neutral here but a grounded conductor for the 120V, yes you can use the same pipe or a 10 wire as a grounding conductor to both circuits, this is common.

The 120 has an ungrounded conductor, a grounded conductor and a equipment grounding conductor. No neutral.

Huh? What are u talking about?

Neutral IS a grounded conductor...

 

[sberry]

It isn't a neutral on a 120V circuit Mr Edison.

 

[rodsnratfinks]

#semantics

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

#semantics

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Not really, if it was the same it would be worded that way in hundreds of lines of code. It isn't even listed in definitions. BTW, neither is sub panel.

 

[sberry]

I believe they use the term common neutral in feeders, Art 215 somewhere. Its in another place or 2 described as unbalanced load in service calcs. Art 220.22 It uses grounded conductor and general says that its only a neutral when its the difference between ungrounded conductors.
I believe they use the term some in grounding in 250

 

[Speedy Petey]

Not really, if it was the same it would be worded that way in hundreds of lines of code. It isn't even listed in definitions. BTW, neither is sub panel.

My point exactly!
BOTH neutral and sub-panel are widely accepted terms and perfectly fine to use.

When you cut yourself, do you reach for a Band-Aid, or an adhesive bandage???

I have a legitimate question for you: What is your actual problem with the term neutral? Why is it a bad term to use??
Some folks use the term "common", which in my opinion is wrong since there is already another use for the word making it confusing. In the world of AC building wiring if you say the word neutral EVERYONE knows what you mean.

 

[Cmreschke]

Black is fine for the other conductor. Color coding like your asking about is for mixed voltages from separate systems. Example of that is 208/120 and 480/277. What you have is 240/120. To get your 240 you need black and red, to get your 120 you need either black or red.

Hope that helps.

BTW sberry, great job on the hijack.

 

[sberry]

My point exactly!
BOTH neutral and sub-panel are widely accepted terms and perfectly fine to use.

When you cut yourself, do you reach for a Band-Aid, or an adhesive bandage???

I have a legitimate question for you: What is your actual problem with the term neutral? Why is it a bad term to use??
Some folks use the term "common", which in my opinion is wrong since there is already another use for the word making it confusing. In the world of AC building wiring if you say the word neutral EVERYONE knows what you mean.

I got no problem with it but whats yours with people learning the right way? I used the wrong minor term the other day and 2 or 3 masters here nearly had a stroke,, now you advocate it? We can go back at some point but there is no harm in some study. And really despite how well it is accepted its not a neutral till it is. That's not even my opinion, that's a fact.
BTW, I do call them tissues, also call an adjustable wrench what it is most of the time. And I believe the code actually calls a garage feed a service to a dettached structure from an existing service.

 

[sberry]

BOTH neutral and sub-panel are widely accepted terms and perfectly fine to use.

I will agree there is nothing basically wrong with calling them that but it isn't what they are. Neutral is used in the book but I cant recall sub anywhere?
Not even in the index let alone definitions.
Art 200 is ID of grounded conductors.

 

[bimmer1980]

With the quantity of wires, be sure to check your fill rates of the conduit... There is a code for the percentage of fill on the conduit.

Also, for convenience..... Depending on quantity of bends, you may want to be thoughtful on the size of conduit for pulling the wire..... Small conduit, lots of bends, and max fill percentage will be real "fun" to pull.....

how about a picture of the aforementioned lift?

 

[graeme.c.payne]

"Earth ground" has NEVER = equipment grounding conductor

Correct in the USA only. In the rest of the English-speaking world, "Earth" is in fact the correct term.


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

 

[Ji m]

In answer to the question,
the 120v and 240v conductors are actually the same voltage (to ground) anyway,
just measured against different points.

So yes they can be in the same conduit,
and labeling or coloring would only be importaint so you knew which two were landed on the 2-pole breaker and which one was on the single pole.

sberry,
are you saying the grounded conductor can be called a neutral when it's part of a multi-wire branch circuit?

Interesting,
I never really considered it's not "neutral" when it's run with just one ungrounded conductor (if thats what you're saying).

 

[Ji m]

^like in a debate.

With just 2 people, neither person could be considered "neutral".

But in a debate between two people (or a circuit with 2 ungrounded conductors),
a third "person" (or grounded conductor) can be Neutral to each (?)

That's either a very interesting point of view,
or I'm missing what was said completely

edit,
and I just noticed this was bumped from 2015

 

[sberry]

Yes, it was just a matter of discussion and understanding. There must have reason the code describes it the way it does, I know it's easier to fall back and just say,,, well everyone understands than to elaborate a little. There is a lot of code quotes here, this is good but often some fundamental principles are bypassed. There are areas I need work on. I really dont know anything about electricity which is different than wiring. Most wiring is mechanical, simply routing, hooking up the right size in the right place. I can manage that most of the time.
I was working on a house the other day where the owner was on the job as the general and carpenter. He had a bunch of labor he was passing jobs to so he could do design and layout.
We had a bunch of 3 way, a 4 way or 2 and after we pulled the wire I put my helper on the terminations so I could get back to work,,,, pulling wire and drilling. I pass off all the technical I can and speed it up by being prepared ahead for the next phase instead of trying to do hookups while pushing labor over my shoulder.
My helper is a lot smarter than I am, can read pages of schematics and does real tech so much better than I do. I spend a lot on prep he doesn't much care for,,, I get the car cleaned, parked shields and gauges off, all that stuff so he can walk up and put his finger on the problem.
I cost myself a days work a while back getting ahead of myself and missing a simple loose wire. Started on something I didn't troubleshoot well.

 

[Ji m]

Yes, it was just a matter of discussion and understanding. There must have reason the code describes it the way it does, I know it's easier to fall back and just say,,, well everyone understands than to elaborate a little. There is a lot of code quotes here, this is good but often some fundamental principles are bypassed. There are areas I need work on. I really dont know anything about electricity which is different than wiring. Most wiring is mechanical, simply routing, hooking up the right size in the right place. I can manage that most of the time.
I was working on a house the other day where the owner was on the job as the general and carpenter. He had a bunch of labor he was passing jobs to so he could do design and layout.
We had a bunch of 3 way, a 4 way or 2 and after we pulled the wire I put my helper on the terminations so I could get back to work,,,, pulling wire and drilling. I pass off all the technical I can and speed it up by being prepared ahead for the next phase instead of trying to do hookups while pushing labor over my shoulder.
My helper is a lot smarter than I am, can read pages of schematics and does real tech so much better than I do. I spend a lot on prep he doesn't much care for,,, I get the car cleaned, parked shields and gauges off, all that stuff so he can walk up and put his finger on the problem.
I cost myself a days work a while back getting ahead of myself and missing a simple loose wire. Started on something I didn't troubleshoot well.

were you hacked sbarry?

I have met electricians who can't wire 3 ways,
but I don't think you're one of them.

 

[Norcal]

Correct in the USA only. In the rest of the English-speaking world, "Earth" is in fact the correct term.


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

In the rest of the English-speaking world, "Earth" is in fact the term used.

Corrected

 

[LX-Markham]

back to the original question..... aren't electric stoves wired this way? They have both 120 and 240.

Couldn't you run a 4 wire (R, B, W, G) conductor to the lift, use 240 for the lift and 120 for the accessories?

 

[ripperd]

back to the original question..... aren't electric stoves wired this way? They have both 120 and 240.

Couldn't you run a 4 wire (R, B, W, G) conductor to the lift, use 240 for the lift and 120 for the accessories?

The lift likely requires a dedicated circuit to maintain its UL, NEC, (or similar) approval/compliance. Tapping the circuit for 120v would work at the electrical level, but probably violates the approved installation and could cause problems if you hook a high power draw to the 120v outlet and try to operate the lift.

 

[Toomanytools?]

You need to be careful when asking an electrical question on GJ...the answer can be shockingly hard to come by.

 

[apollo11]

sometimes a yes or no will suffice