Metal building with exposed closed cell spray foam

[madala]

I am building a new metal 26x36 shop and plan on installing 3” spray applied closed cell foam with no drywall or cladding. I will use spray applied intumescent paint(DC315) for the required thermal/ignition barrier.

I am curious if others have done this and any comments or photos.

Thanks in advance..

 

[nelstomlinson]

I'm sitting in a spray foamed metal building right now. The spray foam is great, the metal quonset I probably won't do again.

 

[lakeroadster]

Interesting... Thanks for posting. DC315 Intumescent Coating

 

[850xpeps]

Provides a 15-20 min fire barrier. Is that enough? Up here 45 min is the minimum I believe. More if it’s attached garage or shop.

 

[madala]

This link explains
https://www.painttoprotect.com/ay-126.pdf

Not a fire barrier but a thermal barrier. Roughly equal to 1/2 drywall

 

[madala]

Is the foam protected with a thermal barrier? Do you have a pic?

Thx

 

[nelstomlinson]

I didn't use a thermal barrier. The foam is available in a fire proof version, but I'm just being very careful.

 

[madala]

Thx.


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[Jbullfrog]

It's worth it to do the inside walls, even if they aren't required for code. The convenience of mounting things is worth it.

 

[MrSurly]

I have closed-cell on the lower 7’, open cell from there up. I have not added any barrier at this time.





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[readhead]

Please do some research on spray foam on metal. A lot of problems are showing up.

 

[MrSurly]

Please do some research on spray foam on metal. A lot of problems are showing up.

Please back that up with a link or two?
I have “done some research” over several months, chasing links, trying to find “a lot of problems” but so far I haven’t found the stories about these problems. I find people speculating about a story they heard fourth-hand but I would seriously like to get actual info. I’ve found claims of foam problems promoted by fiberglas sellers and bubble-wrap salesmen (competitors) but please inform me of the source for the “lot of problems”.


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[readhead]

I sell and erect metal buildings. I have first hand knowledge with rust through of sheeting and secondary components. We write into our contracts that all warranties are void if spray foam is applied. Doing repair or remodeling work on spray foamed buildings is a nightmare.
This is a problem that has only surfaced in the last couple of years. It has taken years for the damage to be noticed. Many metal component companies are voiding warranties if spray foam is applied. This is being compared to the synthetic stucco mess that surfaced several years ago.
Spray foam is a great product and it does it's job very well but there may be problems down the road.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

Closed cell blocks moisture. Open cell does not. Tyvec would absolutely act as a slip sheet and a barrier between the exterior metal and the foam, making future maintenance possible.

Everything in building is about the details.

 

[lakeroadster]

I have closed-cell on the lower 7’, open cell from there up. I have not added any barrier at this time.

That's a fire looking for a place to happen.

"The International Residential Code (IRC) and Internation Building Code (IBC) both include requirements for thermal barriers (and ignition barriers, too; see below)."

https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog...Insulation-Need-a-Thermal-or-Ignition-Barrier

"What if your local doesn't require anything? Well, it sure is tempting to keep your costs low and omit ignition barriers in attics and crawl spaces. But what if that house burns, and the insurance company refuses to pay because there was no ignition barrier? It doesn't take a genius to know who the homeowners are going to come after."

 

[mike93lx]

That's a fire looking for a place to happen.

"The International Residential Code (IRC) and Internation Building Code (IBC) both include requirements for thermal barriers (and ignition barriers, too; see below)."

https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog...Insulation-Need-a-Thermal-or-Ignition-Barrier

plus it looks like **** with that uneven, yellowing foam, not to mention the amount of dust and dirt the will accumulate on the surface.

 

[astrohip]

I am building a new metal 26x36 shop and plan on installing 3” spray applied closed cell foam with no drywall or cladding. I will use spray applied intumescent paint(DC315) for the required thermal/ignition barrier.

I am curious if others have done this and any comments or photos.

Thanks in advance..

I have a metal building, about two years old, 50x50. I sprayed the entire interior with 3" closed cell foam--ceiling & walls. No other spray/film/paint applied.

I'm in Texas, and it gets HOT in the summer. This building is amazingly comfortable year round. I would not be able to work in it during summers without this insulation. I have a steel roll-up door (10x12) on the west side, and if its been down and I touch it, you can burn yourself. Yet put your hand on the wall right next to the door (foamed), and it's cool to the touch.

I talked to the builder about foam. He's seen no problems at all. He told me about 1/3 of his customers spray closed-cell, 1/3 open cell (to save money), and about a third do nothing at all (saves the most!). He has no concerns, and the foam doesn't affect his warranty.

I'm sure there are some people who have had issues, for whatever reasons. But (and this is anecdotal, of course), I don't know anyone who has had a problem. And down here, you either insulate or sweat.

PS: Great in the cold too. We're having a cold spell now, down in the 30s , and I was working in it yesterday quite comfortably. No heat.

 

[astrohip]

Here's a few pics before I moved in...

 

[finn]

The metal roof of my enclosed lean to has several leaks at the purlin screw holes.

I will eventually insulate the lean to, but not until I am confident the leaks are permanently repaired.

Closed cell on the ceiling would certainly lead to rotting and corrosion of the underside of the steel sheets, so I can understand why application of the foam is not the best procedure.

I suspect that with direct application, it would leak and I would never know it.

When we foamed the addition to the house, the builder and foam insulation company both recommended building an air gap and using vented soffits and a ridge vent rather than spraying directly to the underside of the roof decking.

 

[readhead]

To those who say that they have had no problems, you are lucky. Or, how do you know if you have a problem? The damage I have seen is in buildings that are five to ten years old. It usually starts with some bubbling on the exterior of a sheet and seems kind of minor. Once we get inside I have seen holes rusted right through girts and purlins. We live in a pretty dry climate and I think most of the problem comes from parking wet vehicles inside during the winter.

What puzzles me is that it is much less expensive to insulate with blanket insulation and get the same result. Most of the people I talk to that have foam did it because they were trying to put the building up in a budget and thought they were saving money by not insulating.

 

[madala]

Thanks for all the responses and photos. Here are some bullets from my research:
Not all foams are created equal.
Installation skill and attention to humidity during application are important
I read anecdotal material online about manufactures not warrantying foam installations but the ones I spoke with had no problem, and the manufacturer i chose actually recommended it over other methods
The fire risk can be both be underestimated and overstated.
A corner fire of decent magnitude will flashover within a couple of minutes much faster than most other insulation material, however such a fire would be extremely unlikely in an occupied shop. (I will post a video if i can find it, that NFPA did some time ago on different insulation materials using a corner fire). NOTE: other code compliant materials will also flashover given enough time.
The stuff is not like polystyrene. You cant light it with a match - it takes a hot fire in a corner to get it to burn and fire of that size would also ignite studs/plywood/osb etc. if they weren’t extinguished quickly.

 

[lakeroadster]

Go to 2:54 here;

Keep watching.. also discussed thermal barriers and ignition barriers.. and at 12:09 the intumescent coating is shown.

 

[Dragfluid]

Go to 2:54 here;

Keep watching.. also discussed thermal barriers and ignition barriers.. and at 12:09 the intumescent coating is shown.

Good vid.
I like this one, also. One of the reasons that I went the way that I did.

 

[850xpeps]

Thanks for all the responses and photos. Here are some bullets from my research:

Not all foams are created equal.

Installation skill and attention to humidity during application are important

I read anecdotal material online about manufactures not warrantying foam installations but the ones I spoke with had no problem, and the manufacturer i chose actually recommended it over other methods

The fire risk can be both be underestimated and overstated.

A corner fire of decent magnitude will flashover within a couple of minutes much faster than most other insulation material, however such a fire would be extremely unlikely in an occupied shop. (I will post a video if i can find it, that NFPA did some time ago on different insulation materials using a corner fire). NOTE: other code compliant materials will also flashover given enough time.

The stuff is not like polystyrene. You cant light it with a match - it takes a hot fire in a corner to get it to burn and fire of that size would also ignite studs/plywood/osb etc. if they weren’t extinguished quickly.

It doesn’t matter weather or not it’s likely to burn. There’s fire codes to protect
People from not covering this sh!t up. If it happens to catch fire the gassed it gives off will kill you dead. Not to mention it looks like **** uncovered.

 

[MrSurly]

It’s almost like a political topic, every time it comes up. It seems most folks either have the stuff and like it or don’t have it and need more info, some don’t think it’s the best option and would prefer another material; but then there are the Anti-Foamers. These people scream about how horrible/awful/terrible/flammable/corrosive/hideous the stuff is; make claims about whole industries denying warranties (I’ve been emailing mfrs asking for examples of these warranty exceptions, none yet) make up stories about denied insurance claims (never happened) and seem so exercised over the awfulness of foam that you gotta wonder their motivation.
Of course in some of their cases (RedHead) it seems that it’s their business... they sell competing products. Makes you wonder how objective some opinions can be.
The video provided where the torch was trained on various materials was very interesting. The foam could be burned, but didn’t support its own burn. It did better at that than I expected!
But one of the “barriers” I’ve had people tell me to use (to make my Shop safe) is 1/2” OSB. I would really have liked to see the video include training the torch on OSB. I can assure you it would have performed *worse* than the foam. It certainly would not self-extinguish. It would survive minor ignition sources (sparks etc) and arguably provide a better appearance but a torch or adjacent actual fire would light it up!

I intend to add drywall in the areas of welding etc and I would LOVE to line the entire interior and build it into a garage mahal, but I work with what I have.




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[Dragfluid]

It’s almost like a political topic, every time it comes up. It seems most folks either have the stuff and like it or don’t have it and need more info, some don’t think it’s the best option and would prefer another material; but then there are the Anti-Foamers. These people scream about how horrible/awful/terrible/flammable/corrosive/hideous the stuff is; make claims about whole industries denying warranties (I’ve been emailing mfrs asking for examples of these warranty exceptions, none yet) make up stories about denied insurance claims (never happened) and seem so exercised over the awfulness of foam that you gotta wonder their motivation.
Of course in some of their cases (RedHead) it seems that it’s their business... they sell competing products. Makes you wonder how objective some opinions can be.
The video provided where the torch was trained on various materials was very interesting. The foam could be burned, but didn’t support its own burn. It did better at that than I expected!
But one of the “barriers” I’ve had people tell me to use (to make my Shop safe) is 1/2” OSB. I would really have liked to see the video include training the torch on OSB. I can assure you it would have performed *worse* than the foam. It certainly would not self-extinguish. It would survive minor ignition sources (sparks etc) and arguably provide a better appearance but a torch or adjacent actual fire would light it up!

I intend to add drywall in the areas of welding etc and I would LOVE to line the entire interior and build it into a garage mahal, but I work with what I have.

I'm not sure if anyone is really "anti-foam". Like you said, just different preferences. I myself have 1" polyiso over the top of my dense packed cellulose for a thermal break. And have that covered by drywall.
Foam is certainly a good insulation. Just more costly. For sealing up a rim joist, I can't think of anything better. But it shouldn't be left exposed for safety reasons.

Different strokes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. I like gasoline for running my truck, but I don't have a 5 gal pail of it sitting on the passenger seat.

 

[MrSurly]

I appreciate your point but of course your analogy is flawed by false equivalence. The”ingniteability” of foam isn’t remotely similar to gasoline as you no doubt know. You likely wouldn’t place an open pail of gas *anywhere* .
I plan to cover it at some point, but it’s crazy that some folks act as if the stuff can spontaneously combust and we should all run for the hills until it gets drywalled. The more virulent in opposition resort to “corrosive”, “unrepairable”,”uninsurable” “no warranties” etc. I’m here to learn and share.
Logical examination of the pros and cons is truly helpful.



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[lakeroadster]

.... The more virulent in opposition resort to “corrosive”, “unrepairable”,”uninsurable” “no warranties” etc. I’m here to learn and share.
Logical examination of the pros and cons is truly helpful.

But when a member here has 1st hand knowledge and he erects buildings for a living, he is a pro, using logical examination.

I sell and erect metal buildings. I have first hand knowledge with rust through of sheeting and secondary components. We write into our contracts that all warranties are void if spray foam is applied. Doing repair or remodeling work on spray foamed buildings is a nightmare.
This is a problem that has only surfaced in the last couple of years. It has taken years for the damage to be noticed. Many metal component companies are voiding warranties if spray foam is applied. This is being compared to the synthetic stucco mess that surfaced several years ago.
Spray foam is a great product and it does it's job very well but there may be problems down the road.

 

[readhead]

Thanks John. At some point I just have to stand back, be quiet and watch.

Andy

 

[Dragfluid]

I appreciate your point but of course your analogy is flawed by false equivalence. The”ingniteability” of foam isn’t remotely similar to gasoline as you no doubt know. You likely wouldn’t place an open pail of gas *anywhere* .
I plan to cover it at some point, but it’s crazy that some folks act as if the stuff can spontaneously combust and we should all run for the hills until it gets drywalled. The more virulent in opposition resort to “corrosive”, “unrepairable”,”uninsurable” “no warranties” etc. I’m here to learn and share.
Logical examination of the pros and cons is truly helpful.

Silly carbon unit.
There was no analogy intended, nor was I trying to imply that there was any equivalence of the igniteability of foam and gasoline.
Sorry that you took it to be implied that way.

Sometimes my abstraction goes a little far.

 

[Firebrick43]

Manufactures write their warrentees in ways that pretty much exclude spray foam without "specifically" excluding spray foam.

For example MBCI I believe is the biggest or at least close to the top in the metal panel market.

Picked one product, a galvalume panel warrantee which has the highest market share of panels now days.

http://www.mbci.com/documents/finish-warranties/galvalume---galvalume-plus-warranty/

Please read line I (as in the letter i) specifically.

Polyurethane close cell foams will absorb some water if there is a leak in the roof. A roof not detailed correctly or that uses exposed fasteners will leak some where, guaranteed. Now you have "damp insulation" against the panel and the warrentee is null and void. Also PU foam is water resistant enough that you probably won't see the leak below, only see it after its corroded through the panel.

Don't believe me on water absorption of PU closed cell foam? Google water logged boat floatation foam.

 

[skippydoo]

If you put down bubble wrap under the metal and spray foam to the wrap, you should be ok,correct? How about Tyvek for walls, is this good enough?

 

[d300]

MrSurly makes some good points.

Spray foam has benefits that cannot be duplicated by other products. Foam seals every nook and cranny, stops air infiltration, and actually adds to structural rigidity. Try that with rock-wool or pink.


...as soon as folks stop using exposed fasteners in a roof then leaks will pretty much go away. Problem solved. Yes, hidden fasteners could also develop issues but only when the sheets are improperly installed.... but the surface is still not full of holes. The biggest problem with any metal roof is that the builder/erector uses extremely long sheets that have huge thermal expansion changes and fail to use proper attaching methods to mitigate the movement.

Seriously, why would you/anyone, poke holes in a roof that you expect to keep the building contents dry...? Uninhabitable space for your tractor is not quite like your bardominium project.

 

[fthomasr]

Here's a few pics before I moved in...

Looking at your pics in this post:
garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6913740&postcount=18

That's a great looking foam job. How did you avoid spraying all of the red iron? Every other time I've see a red iron spray they coat EVERYTHING and it looks terrible.

Thanks!

 

[astrohip]

Looking at your pics in this post:
garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6913740&postcount=18

That's a great looking foam job. How did you avoid spraying all of the red iron? Every other time I've see a red iron spray they coat EVERYTHING and it looks terrible.

Thanks!

It's going to be totally dependent on who does the job. I remember when the person who did mine was selling me on it, he made a point of telling me how he would cover all the beams before spraying.

They used a plastic wrap, and did a good job with it. Very little overspray.

 

[a_whale]

<deleted>

 

[astrohip]

Spray foam the roof is exactly what I needed. A metal roof under a Texas sun? Might as well put a radiant heater over my barn.

I've been in metal barns that were so hot in the summer you couldn't work in them. Mine stays remarkably cool. Put your hand on a sun-facing roll-up door (the only things not foamed), and you'll burn it. Put it on the wall right next to the door, it's not even warm.

I'm not going to foil-cover, between stringers, foam, cover with metal again, blow insulation, yada yada. It's a barn, not a house. My barn is dry, temperature stable, cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

YMMV.

 

[a_whale]

<deleted>

 

[karoc]

By no means am I pro spray foam, I have been searching for reasons not to be. What did they do before spray foam? But I also can't argue with positive comments such as astrohip
and MrSurly saying what a difference spray foam makes.
On other hand spray foam applied directly to metal roof I would think would hinder the expansion/contraction metal. Which I would think make foam come loose on some of the roof panels. I have seen few Youtubes where they installed house wrap for roof then apply spray foam on wrap. So its all dang if you do & dang if you don't

 

[astrohip]

On other hand spray foam applied directly to metal roof I would think would hinder the expansion/contraction metal.

I can't say what the long-term effects might be. I've had it about 5 years or so, with no issues. Could it cause a problem in 10, or 20, or more? Maybe, but in the meantime, I have a barn I can work in.

I'm not saying sacrifice tomorrow for today, just that sometimes you gotta do something.