How to fix staircase hole in floor

[tjdux]

Hey guys sorry this isn't in a garage, its on a building im working on renevating. But it will have a workshop of sorts in it one day. None the less i trust the opinions here much more than anywhere else on the Internet.

So this building used to be a church (then dance studio, then marshel arts studio) and at one point the church members cobbled together a stair case for the priest to go up directly to the alter. The alter, or stage, was raised up about 18 inches of the main floor. The staircase actually come up from the basement though.

Theres a couple issues. Main one is the the support beam they used to hold the floor joists is a creasote soaked 2x10. Now the framing looks solid enough, but i cannot fathom having a creasote soaked board is a good idea.

Now i imagine that stuff is flamible and i knw it stinks and is probably carcinogenic. I always joked around on the farm when we had railroad ties with that junkbon them that they "smelled like cancer"

If i dont remove it patching the floor is easy. Put some joist hangers and joists and then a subfloor. Done, cheap and easy. I really wanna go this route because its cheap and easy but it may pick at my brain knowing that board is there. This buikding isn't going to be used as a living space, not occupied full time but still...

If the general consensus is remove it that raises some fun questions. To remove it i will have to build a temp support wall to hold the joists up, which will entail demo of the bathroom wall that this staircase transcends. Then i have the option to put in a regular beam or could i skip the beam and just patch the joists?

Ive never patched joists or can recall seeing them in a building. I dont want to fill length sister them, but more like run 2 or 3 ft overlap and use several 1/2 inch through bolts. Also should note this is right on the side of the building and 1 side will sit on the foundation wall. The span is about 36 inches.

There is no inspection required for my personal work on this project and i cannot imagine the expense of an engineer really being needed.

Basically i want some opinions on leave the creosote(i am sure im spelling it wrong but its most commonly found on railroad ties) or remove it.

Thanks guys.

*edit. Did some more googling and discovered there are houses that have creosote on every floor joist in the place. Crazy. Made me want to note that there is only 1 board all of 4ft long here. It smells when you get your face close but not too bad. Not that thats ok but still.

Also i do know its linked to cancer especially by folks working in the factories getting large, daily exposures.

 

[willymakeit]

I would seal it and then a wrap and go on.
A lot of these things everyone wants to turn into a superfund site.

 

[tjdux]

I would seal it and then a wrap and go on.
A lot of these things everyone wants to turn into a superfund site.

Seal it with polyurethane i imagine but what to wrap with? Plastic sheeting?

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[NUTTSGT]

Trying to look at the pictures, is this beam only about 3 feet long ?

I'm not sure how much load it's carrying, the half painted vertical stud looks to hold up one end but it sits on a piece of blocking.

It appears they cut through the floor joists to put the stairway in. On the doorway side of the staircase, how far back is the supports for the floor above.

 

[tjdux]

Trying to look at the pictures, is this beam only about 3 feet long ?

I'm not sure how much load it's carrying, the half painted vertical stud looks to hold up one end but it sits on a piece of blocking.

It appears they cut through the floor joists to put the stairway in. On the doorway side of the staircase, how far back is the supports for the floor above.

Yeah its about 3ft or 4ft long. And yes the one end is sitting on that blocking and looked super bad but as I kept looking the next stud down is double 2x4 post and the end with blocking is probably strong enough to handle that cantilevered load.

I will fix it anyways if i leave the beam. Run another post at the end.

As far as load theres at least 3 floor joists hung off that beam, maybe 4. So more than should be left free hanging from nothing.

 

[bczygan]

Paint with oil based Kilz.

Done.

Let the next guy do the superfund site.

Bill

 

[tjdux]

Paint with oil based Kilz.

Done.

Let the next guy do the superfund site.

Bill

Lol superfund may be overkill being its only 1 4ft board. Still cant beleive they made whole houses out that stuff. Nasty.

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[manwithtools]

No need to worry about that little bit of creosoted wood. use normal construction methods and worry more about the structural soundness. Cover it with drywall or other wall material and move on.....

 

[tjdux]

No need to worry about that little bit of creosoted wood. use normal construction methods and worry more about the structural soundness. Cover it with drywall or other wall material and move on.....

Right on, thanks. That's what i was hoping to do.

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[lakeroadster]

Rustic or Dangerous? Why Keeping Treated Wood Materials Indoors Can be a Bad Idea

I'd replace it. It will never be easier to replace it than it is right now.

"There are no government-approved uses of creosote to treat wood for indoor, residential purposes."

Here's more >>>>>> Rustic or Dangerous? Why Keeping Treated Wood Materials Indoors Can be a Bad Idea

That's the thing about asking a question of this type on a forum. Opinions vary, and none of us have any skin in the game.

 

[The Cobbler]

most I would do is seal with oil base paint or sealer and move on.do at least a few coats .the first few coats may bleed into the paint.
if there is creosote on other wood in the building, you would end up demoing to get it all out.
Our world is full of nasty stuff, asbestos, lead paint, and on & on

 

[fordtoy#1]

give me a break are you guys kidding me!!!!

 

[DieselNut88]

That joist does not look like it is bearing any weight from the pictures. Do you have pictures higher up?

 

[NUTTSGT]

Since you have it all open, I'd probably replace it now. It would be easier now than it will later.

Are you tearing out the stage ? If so, you might some lumber to use to replace it from that demo work.

 

[tjdux]

most I would do is seal with oil base paint or sealer and move on.do at least a few coats .the first few coats may bleed into the paint.
if there is creosote on other wood in the building, you would end up demoing to get it all out.
Our world is full of nasty stuff, asbestos, lead paint, and on & on

This is the only peice in the while building and its a small peice at that.

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[tjdux]

Since you have it all open, I'd probably replace it now. It would be easier now than it will later.

Are you tearing out the stage ? If so, you might some lumber to use to replace it from that demo work.

I did tear out the stage already and I agree this would be the time to do it. Only issue is to support the joists its holding will require demoing a basement wall that didnt originally need to come out in order to support the joists.

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[tjdux]

Re: Rustic or Dangerous? Why Keeping Treated Wood Materials Indoors Can be a Bad Idea

I'd replace it. It will never be easier to replace it than it is right now.

"There are no government-approved uses of creosote to treat wood for indoor, residential purposes."

Here's more >>>>>> Rustic or Dangerous? Why Keeping Treated Wood Materials Indoors Can be a Bad Idea

That's the thing about asking a question of this type on a forum. Opinions vary, and none of us have any skin in the game.

Yeah i read that exact article too. I know it would be better to replace and never worry.

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[tjdux]

That joist does not look like it is bearing any weight from the pictures. Do you have pictures higher up?

I will get some later today. It's holding a few floor joists. Granted they are nailed together and no hangers because thats how it was done back then

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[tjdux]

That joist does not look like it is bearing any weight from the pictures. Do you have pictures higher up?

Hey got new pics up.

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[tjdux]

Ok got a few better pics to show the load bearing.

Im going to sister the joists with 2x10s. Thw one side will set on the sill plate so it's no concern but the other side is what worries me.

I can easily enough slide 6 ft sister boards in which gives 30 inches or so of overlap. Then I figured 6 half inch through bolts staggered to hold it together.

Will that be enough to remove the support from the bottom? Or do you guys think that may leave it weak/bouncy?

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[mcbane]

Sistering of joists wont work unless you can put in full length sister joists that extend all the way to the supports. Joists are only lapped for a splice when the lap will be over a support. Never splice mid-span because nails and cant reliably transfer flexural loads. Through bolts are even worse than nails and will only serve to provide sufficient prying force to split the joist lengthwise.

Your most cost effective option is to encapsulate. Google for creosote encapsulation and you will find products recommended for that purpose.

If you just want the creosote gone, resupport the joists and replace the creosote laden piece. You dont need to take down any ceilings to resupport. Just get a temporary wall with a header perpendicular to and pressed up tight under the affected joists. You will probably have a few dimples or scratches in the sheet rock to repair.

 

[tjdux]

Sistering of joists wont work unless you can put in full length sister joists that extend all the way to the supports. Joists are only lapped for a splice when the lap will be over a support. Never splice mid-span because nails and cant reliably transfer flexural loads. Through bolts are even worse than nails and will only serve to provide sufficient prying force to split the joist lengthwise.

Your most cost effective option is to encapsulate. Google for creosote encapsulation and you will find products recommended for that purpose.

If you just want the creosote gone, resupport the joists and replace the creosote laden piece. You dont need to take down any ceilings to resupport. Just get a temporary wall with a header perpendicular to and pressed up tight under the affected joists. You will probably have a few dimples or scratches in the sheet rock to repair.

Easy enough. I got some poor info before on sistering joists and thats why i ask questions.

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[lakeroadster]

You could replace the post with a steel jack post. That would give you some adjustability...

Tiger Brand Super S Series 8 ft. 4 in. Jack Post

 

[dfiler2]

IMO, it would be better to seal it with Kilz, as mentioned before. It would probably end up in a landfill somewhere. Leaving it alone is probably the best environmentally.

 

[James-W]

It shouldn't be a big deal to support the floor joists with a small wall while you remove that creosote piece. If you replace it now it should be relatively painless as compared with trying to replace it later on down the road. Over the years i have helped friends and other family members work on projects. From those experiences I have learned that doing things right in the beginning is far better than trying to remedy something later on that should have been fixed initially.

 

[tjdux]

You could replace the post with a steel jack post. That would give you some adjustability...

Tiger Brand Super S Series 8 ft. 4 in. Jack Post

Nothing sags or is out of level curenntly. I don't know if i can even get something like that locally.

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[manwithtools]

How old is the building? If it's as old as I suspect it might be, that little bit of creosoted wood is the least of your worries from an environmental standpoint. If that piece has been there for 20 years or more, any outgassing is long over with.

If you really want it gone, build a temporary wall to support the joists and then replace that piece with new wood. You may have to build up a header to match the dimensions of that piece, new lumber may not be the same size.

 

[tjdux]

How old is the building? If it's as old as I suspect it might be, that little bit of creosoted wood is the least of your worries from an environmental standpoint. If that piece has been there for 20 years or more, any outgassing is long over with.

If you really want it gone, build a temporary wall to support the joists and then replace that piece with new wood. You may have to build up a header to match the dimensions of that piece, new lumber may not be the same size.

Its likely from the 20s or 30s. That creosote board is from a remodel likely 50s ~70s. It is still off gassing. Its pretty strong smelling anywhere 10ish feet away every direction.

Yeah im gonna sister the joists and replace the beam. The old one is 11.5 inchesx 3 so double 2x12 will work fine

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[RVDan]

Sister the joints with construction adhesive. After it's dry knock that creosoted chunk of wood out and replace it with a shiny new piece of wood. The sistered joists will hold it for that short period of time with nobody jumping up and down on it. Those joists are not holding the building up, only holding the stage up right?

 

[tjdux]

Sister the joints with construction adhesive. After it's dry knock that creosoted chunk of wood out and replace it with a shiny new piece of wood. The sistered joists will hold it for that short period of time with nobody jumping up and down on it. Those joists are not holding the building up, only holding the stage up right?

Stage is gone, they are holding the regular floor up. Actually only half the floor. It flollows what i would describe as standard old house/building design with a load bearing wall down the center of the basment and half length joists.

Sounds like a good plan

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[RaGiN Z]

If it isn't in the way, I'd leave it. Too much work for not enough payback. Choose your battles.

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[plumbing101mike]

No need to worry about that little bit of creosoted wood. use normal construction methods and worry more about the structural soundness. Cover it with drywall or other wall material and move on.....

Agreed

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