The price of imported tool boxes...

[Stuey]

I wrote a longer post about this over at ToolGuyd (http://toolguyd.com/what-will-happe...hests-cabinets-combos-and-mobile-workbenches/), but here's the gist of things:

It looks like tool cabinets and chests imported from China might soon skyrocket in price.

I don't have any background in international trade or tariff matters, and so I could be wrong, but the way I understand it, this will happen unless Waterloo (now SBD) withdraws their petition, or the USITC imposes countervailing and anti-dumping duties substantially lower than expected.

Were you looking to buy a Milwaukee tool box? Husky? Kobalt? Dewalt? It seems that these and other brands' products might increase in price by a LOT.

Can someone better versed with these things double check? Final Report

As of now, the countervailing duty is 14.39% for most manufacturers (14.03 for Geelong), and anti-dumping duties 145.99% for most (168.93% for Geelong).

In other words, IF this all happens, import prices will go up by ~160% for most manufacturers and ~183% for Geelong, unless SBD withdraws the petition or the final anti-dumping duties imposed by the USITC are drastically different than previously published figures.

Boxes with ~18 gauge construction or thicker, and more than 21" deep, and above a certain weight to size ratio will be excluded. Service carts and portable boxes are also excluded.

Based on this, it looks like Harbor Freight's 44" US General box might also be included.

Again, I'm no expert in international trade. Can someone please verify that my understanding isn't flawed?

 

[Druder]

So basically it's written so that SO, Mac, and Matco can still import their boxes but the HF, Husky etc will all have to get deeper drawers to be price competitive?

 

[MWEric]

So basically it's written so that SO, Mac, and Matco can still import their boxes but the HF, Husky etc will all have to get deeper drawers to be price competitive?

My 2 Snap On boxes were imported from Iowa. Unless I’m wrong I think Iowa is exempt.

 

[reader2580]

Does the government not understand that instead of buying a more expensive USA made tool box a lot of people will either do without or buy a used box?

 

[xin]

Good news - more USA manufacturing here instead of CHINA.

 

[ocloc24]

My 2 Snap On boxes were imported from Iowa. Unless I’m wrong I think Iowa is exempt.

[emoji23] i was thinking the same thing, but I like the way you put it. Snap on doesn't import boxes

 

[PassnThru]

This could get interesting.......

 

[xin]

Does the government not understand that instead of buying a more expensive USA made tool box a lot of people will either do without or buy a used box?

Question - What did the USA do before all of this FREE trade that ran all the jobs off?

It is about time someone started looking out for Americans. Don't care about China nor do I worry about them charging more for stuff (that is bankrupting the USA).

 

[anndel]

My 2 Snap On boxes were imported from Iowa. Unless I’m wrong I think Iowa is exempt.

Algona, Iowa to be exact

 

[xin]

I wrote a longer post about this over at ToolGuyd (http://toolguyd.com/what-will-happe...hests-cabinets-combos-and-mobile-workbenches/), but here's the gist of things:

It looks like tool cabinets and chests imported from China might soon skyrocket in price.

I don't have any background in international trade or tariff matters, and so I could be wrong, but the way I understand it, this will happen unless Waterloo (now SBD) withdraws their petition, or the USITC imposes countervailing and anti-dumping duties substantially lower than expected.

Were you looking to buy a Milwaukee tool box? Husky? Kobalt? Dewalt? It seems that these and other brands' products might increase in price by a LOT.

Can someone better versed with these things double check? Final Report

As of now, the countervailing duty is 14.39% for most manufacturers (14.03 for Geelong), and anti-dumping duties 145.99% for most (168.93% for Geelong).

In other words, IF this all happens, import prices will go up by ~160% for most manufacturers and ~183% for Geelong, unless SBD withdraws the petition or the final anti-dumping duties imposed by the USITC are drastically different than previously published figures.

Boxes with ~18 gauge construction or thicker, and more than 21" deep, and above a certain weight to size ratio will be excluded. Service carts and portable boxes are also excluded.

Based on this, it looks like Harbor Freight's 44" US General box might also be included.

Again, I'm no expert in international trade. Can someone please verify that my understanding isn't flawed?

So you oppose manufacturing in the USA (from what you wrote here).

My HOPE is they do and USA companies start up building boxes like Craftsman ect...

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

 

[Lelandwelds]

My 2 Snap On boxes were imported from Algona, Iowa. Unless I’m wrong I think Iowa is exempt.

Iowa is USA. It's Washington DC that's part of China.

 

[reader2580]

Question - What did the USA do before all of this FREE trade that ran all the jobs off?

People in the past didn't have as much stuff as today because goods often cost more. In some cases workers had more money because they were factory workers at a decent wage so they could afford USA made goods.

Mini storage is exploding because Americans have so much stuff.

 

[xin]

People in the past didn't have as much stuff as today because goods often cost more. In some cases workers had more money because they were factory workers at a decent wage so they could afford USA made goods.

Mini storage is exploding because Americans have so much stuff.

Sure hope they are not buying steel from China (whole new thread off that)...

 

[reader2580]

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

Apparently you have no problem with massive inflation when prices of consumer goods go through the roof. The problem is other nations quit buying from the USA when we impose tariffs. The USA exports over $2.2 trillion to the rest of the world.

I am a huge advocate of buying USA made goods, but I also understand that damage that tariffs do.

That Garage Journal guy who was going to spend $1,000 on a Masterforce tool box probably isn't going to spend over $3,000 on a Waterloo Professional HD box or a Snap-On. The low end Waterloo stuff isn't much better than some of the junk from overseas.

 

[Lelandwelds]

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

I disagree. Many of the Chinese factories are shockingly labor intensive. I am sure a more productive US factory could compete. Maybe domestic governments will remove zoning, tax, environmental, and other artificial barriers for business. The Chinese government heavily subsidizes nearly every industry. Our governments actively dream up ways to stymie business.

The trade laws by design are to favor a US group. Maybe the petitioner can dominate the big box market but is tired of multiple little boxes as an option for the consumer. The cost of Chinese labor will not go up. They will produce cheap larger/heavier boxes. If you want a cheap Chinese little box, dont buy anything for a few years. The tariff will expire or some politician will be bought.

I would welcome a price competive large box or a series of quality "too small for punitive tariff" boxes in a style not produced today.

 

[rsanter]

sorry but I am not really seeing this as a bad thing.

upside
potentially more things made here in the USA
china boxes will now be made with thicker metal
china boxes will now be 21 1/8'' deep
HF top boxes will now be called portable tool boxes
HF bottom boxes will now be called service carts
perhaps they will make sub assemblies in china and final assembly here

who knows but they will find a way around it verses let their share of the market go

 

[Parrothead]

That Garage Journal guy who was going to spend $1,000 on a Masterforce tool box probably isn't going to spend over $3,000 on a Waterloo Professional HD box or a Snap-On. The low end Waterloo stuff isn't much better than some of the junk from overseas.

Interesting you bring up Masterforce as they just redesigned all their boxes to be 24” deep. I wonder if they decided to make the change based on this news.

 

[xin]

Apparently you have no problem with massive inflation when prices of consumer goods go through the roof. The problem is other nations quit buying from the USA when we impose tariffs. The USA exports over $2.2 trillion to the rest of the world.

I am a huge advocate of buying USA made goods, but I also understand that damage that tariffs do.

That Garage Journal guy who was going to spend $1,000 on a Masterforce tool box probably isn't going to spend over $3,000 on a Waterloo Professional HD box or a Snap-On. The low end Waterloo stuff isn't much better than some of the junk from overseas.

So you are telling me that unless we import from China we cannot exist?

I fail to see the logic here, if this is the 'best' America can do today we are done for. There is nothing 'fair' about the FREE trade (only sucking sound was the factories leaving)...

Anyways, agree to disagree with the logic where WE have to buy imported items from China.

Our own country is on life support (the ONLY reason why China) is built up is USA money. The trillions of dollars leaving the USA like throwing money down a rat hole.

-- Like everything else (just because someone wrote an article on it means nothing to me).

 

[Druder]

My 2 Snap On boxes were imported from Iowa. Unless I’m wrong I think Iowa is exempt.

Assembled in Iowa from globally sourced components? I guess my point was that the exemption seems tailored to the the brands I mentioned. Why would they have any exemptions unless they were influenced by someone? You only need to make 5%? of your products here to write made in USA on the packaging...

 

[Keelhauled]

So you oppose manufacturing in the USA (from what you wrote here).

My HOPE is they do and USA companies start up building boxes like Craftsman ect...

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

USA companies (Waterloo) already made boxes for Craftsman. By all accounts they were **** compared to the Chinese ones, but instead of trying to compete by matching or bettering the quality they went crying to the government for help. Now we'll have the same options, but we'll get to pay more to subsidize an uncompetitive company. Wonderful.

Edit: let's do some math. As of 2015 there were 350 employees at Waterloo (http://wcfcourier.com/business/loca...cle_5fde752c-2815-5005-8126-e5d5785ab0ef.html). They make a whole lot more than just smaller boxes of the kind the ITC decision applies to, so not all of them would be affected by it, but let's be generous and ignore that. How many toolboxes of the size in question do you think are sold a year? Who knows, let's say 50,000 (the ITC document appears to redact most market data). The Toolguyd link says "most of these new imported tool boxes and workbenches are at $500+ price points." Let's be generous again and say the average is $500. How many boxes are US made vs imported? Considering the state of Sears, and that they are the only mass market seller of US made boxes, I think it's safe to the vast majority are imported. Let's say 75% (although I expect it's higher in reality). So 75% of 50,000...let's make it 40,000 sold annually...75% of 40,000 is 30,000 boxes, which is $15 million in value. Let's use OP's value of a tariff that yields 160% of the previous cost. That $15 million becomes $24 million, or $9 million in tariffs that consumers pay with no value gained. This is for 350 jobs! That's more than $25,000 per job, and half of those are probably going to get automated out of existence anyway, if they haven't already. Hell, maybe if robots weld the things they might actually hold up as well as the HF boxes. And that's with probably absurdly generous numbers in favor of Waterloo. Protectionist trade policies screw the consumer, every single time.

 

[Skin]

Assembled in Iowa from globally sourced components? I guess my point was that the exemption seems tailored to the the brands I mentioned. Why would they have any exemptions unless they were influenced by someone? You only need to make 5%? of your products here to write made in USA on the packaging...

Made in USA requires 95% or something. Its "with global components" that's ambiguous.

 

[Fedwrench]

The only thing raising the price of imported tool boxes will do will be to force many people to buy used

As with most things, it's not the suits that will suffer but, the person trying to make a living as a tech that needs a tool box.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Made in USA requires 95% or something. Its "with global components" that's ambiguous.

"Made in America" laws are a joke. A former employer had an item they bought from china. They only sell it in the "optional extra deluxe" version. They open the package, install three made in China parts, and label it as a "made in America" assembly.

 

[Druder]

"Made in America" laws are a joke. A former employer had an item they bought from china. They only sell it in the "optional extra deluxe" version. They open the package, install three made in China parts, and label it as a "made in America" assembly.

The best part is the organization that regulates these things doesn't do any research unless a member of the public alerts them to a wrongdoing, so you basically have to be a whistle blower. And if you make the packaging in the US customs only gets COO info on the raw product. Many many loopholes that I've learned about over the years.

 

[MaverickDMD]

American jobs in steel production are gone. Taiwan and China are where tools are going to be made from now on. I'm sad too but it's the reality of it. US is a quarter of the size of China and of India. Best to accept that they copy American designs and practices because we can't compete forever.

 

[Stuey]

So you oppose manufacturing in the USA (from what you wrote here).

My HOPE is they do and USA companies start up building boxes like Craftsman ect...

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

Not at all! I am all for USA industry, and purchase USA-made whenever I can.

 

[Stuey]

USA companies (Waterloo) already made boxes for Craftsman. By all accounts they were **** compared to the Chinese ones, but instead of trying to compete by matching or bettering the quality they went crying to the government for help. Now we'll have the same options, but we'll get to pay more to subsidize an uncompetitive company. Wonderful.

Edit: let's do some math. As of 2015 there were 350 employees at Waterloo (http://wcfcourier.com/business/loca...cle_5fde752c-2815-5005-8126-e5d5785ab0ef.html). They make a whole lot more than just smaller boxes of the kind the ITC decision applies to, so not all of them would be affected by it, but let's be generous and ignore that. How many toolboxes of the size in question do you think are sold a year? Who knows, let's say 50,000 (the ITC document appears to redact most market data). The Toolguyd link says "most of these new imported tool boxes and workbenches are at $500+ price points." Let's be generous again and say the average is $500. How many boxes are US made vs imported? Considering the state of Sears, and that they are the only mass market seller of US made boxes, I think it's safe to the vast majority are imported. Let's say 75% (although I expect it's higher in reality). So 75% of 50,000...let's make it 40,000 sold annually...75% of 40,000 is 30,000 boxes, which is $15 million in value. Let's use OP's value of a tariff that yields 160% of the previous cost. That $15 million becomes $24 million, or $9 million in tariffs that consumers pay with no value gained. This is for 350 jobs! That's more than $25,000 per job, and half of those are probably going to get automated out of existence anyway, if they haven't already. Hell, maybe if robots weld the things they might actually hold up as well as the HF boxes. And that's with probably absurdly generous numbers in favor of Waterloo. Protectionist trade policies screw the consumer, every single time.

I was a little narrow-focused in mentioning a $500+ price point, thinking of all the new 42"+ boxes that have been heavily promoted by retailers and favored by customers in recent years.

But this would also affect the $200-$500 units, possibly doubling their prices if the preliminary duties remain.

Aside from import tool box prices, I'm worried about whether Waterloo will or even could produce competitive, appealing, and good quality tool boxes to fill the product holes these duties might create. If they don't, consumers end up really screwed.

 

[lincwelder225]

Question - What did the USA do before all of this FREE trade that ran all the jobs off?

It is about time someone started looking out for Americans. Don't care about China nor do I worry about them charging more for stuff (that is bankrupting the USA).

Agreed!!!!

 

[Parrothead]

“Today, it is generally recognized that the American steel industry is sick because it has failed to modernize. Imported steel is a symptom - not the disease. The competition of European steel companies may be ''unfair,'' in the sense that there are heavy government subsidies, but this is not true of Japan. Japanese steelmakers can undersell American steelmakers in the American market because they have installed modern equipment that dramatically reduces the cost of making a ton of steel.

Every mill closed in Youngstown made steel in antiquated open hearths. An open-hearth furnace takes hours to make a ''heat,'' or batch of steel, that a basic oxygen-process shop, which is standard in Japan, can make in 45 minutes. And not one of the mills closed in Youngstown had a continuous caster to semi-finish the raw steel as it came from the furnace.”

Written in 1981 !!!

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/01/o...eel-has-offered-6.3-billion-for-marathon.html

 

[PelicanPines]

The only thing raising the price of imported tool boxes will do will be to force many people to buy used

As with most things, it's not the suits that will suffer but, the person trying to make a living as a tech that needs a tool box.

^^^ this...

And not one company will startup in the USA to manufacture boxes... there will be no magic...

 

[Parrothead]

The only thing raising the price of imported tool boxes will do will be to force many people to buy used

As with most things, it's not the suits that will suffer but, the person trying to make a living as a tech that needs a tool box.

^^^ this...

And not one company will startup in the USA to manufacture boxes... there will be no magic...

Yep, I can say that’s fairly accurate at least from the people I know. I also know I’m not spending more on a tool box than I did on my car...so there’s that.

 

[Lelandwelds]

In 1985, Honda sold the VF700 in response to the 750 cc tariffs. Harley need the crutch to overcome bad management and poor engine design. (Which they still suffer from.)

I think the VF700 is a better bike than the 750 before it.

I hope that cheap, subsidized Chinese labor produces a higher quality box or invents a new size that fills a need. My buy date is probably 2025 anyway.

 

[WittHay]

The Chinese economy is one big government subsidy, this thread is about consumer grade tool boxes but it could be for vises, jacks, welders just about any shop equipment made in China.

For most mechanics that I know, the price of a HF tool box is irrelevant. I can see a price increase helping Snap-on, Proto/Mac, Matco, Homak/Kennedy/Cornwall and SPG more than Waterloo. as in why would a tech buy a import box for 600 to 800 when you can get US made for 1000 to 1200

For the home market, Waterloo still has to make a product that consumers want, regardless of price. if the $600 HF 44" is better than the $600 Waterloo 44" people will still buy the HF

 

[zendriver]

Does the government not understand that instead of buying a more expensive USA made tool box a lot of people will either do without or buy a used box?

They don't care.

The ones that will lose out, are the American consumer Who is forced to fix his own **** and those who like to brag about the great tool boxes they they got for cheap off craigslist.

Imported goods is the only reason peopke haven't started a revolution years ago.

We'll see how this all plays out we will start in 25-30% more for everything, while their wages don't keep up.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[maico]

Our own country is on life support (the ONLY reason why China) is built up is USA money. The trillions of dollars leaving the USA like throwing money down a rat hole.

-- Like everything else (just because someone wrote an article on it means nothing to me).

Not true, only 18% of Chinese exports go to the US.

Chinese imports are 21.4% of the US total followed by the EU at 18.9%

 

[PelicanPines]

Not true, only 18% of Chinese exports go to the US.

Chinese imports are 21.4% of the US total followed by the EU at 18.9%

Yep...

 

[kythri]

So you oppose manufacturing in the USA (from what you wrote here).

Wow, is your name Cathy Newman? How in the world do you interpret his statement as THAT?

 

[ptgarcia]

Tariffs are rarely a good thing. Those of you that think this is good need to do some research and broaden your understanding to the entire impact, not just on how it might affect the tool box manufacturing.

 

[visionguru]

So you oppose manufacturing in the USA (from what you wrote here).

My HOPE is they do and USA companies start up building boxes like Craftsman ect...

They should put tariffs on it, no way a USA company can compete with people working for 10 cents an hour in China.

10 cents an hour? Do you actually know?
Chinese factory workers earns about $4/hour on average, and on the rise year by year. No income tax and low living cost. Their living standards are no worse than people who make $15~$20/hour in the U.S.

Putting tariff on cheaper goods is equivalent to asking donation/tax to help those jobs who cannot compete in the global market. Lower income people are the ones who get hurt the most. Ironically, the tariff is supposed to help them.

 

[Gmonkee]

Cool! Now deeper drawer cabinets are going to be cheaper than the 18'' nobody really prefers. And with thicker metals.

All this does is improve the imports. Thank you!