4” x 4” studs found in strange wall

[branimal]

I have this weird “L”-shaped wall in a bedroom I’ve alway wanted to get rid of. It blocks a decent amount of the 8 foot windows. I started ripping the sheet off and found 3 4”x4”’s behind the sheetrock. My guess is that is some type of structural support for the joists above it. I’m going to poke around the other leg of the “L” and see if there are support joists in there as well.

I could cut around the ceiling to find out what is being supported.

Is there anything I can replace the 4”x4”s with that are less ugly?

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[Kev442]

Considering one 4x4 can support a ton or two easily across a 4' span, there is something really screwy there. My question is what are the 4x4's resting on below?

 

[Stuart in MN]

You need to find out for sure if they are actually supporting something, or if someone just used them because they had them on hand.

 

[ckucia]

With the view out the window, it looks like you're remodeling in an apartment building.

If that's the case, I'd use extreme caution before removing parts of walls.

 

[NUTTSGT]

With the view out the window, it looks like you're remodeling in an apartment building.

If that's the case, I'd use extreme caution before removing parts of walls.

My thoughts as well.


What you might be removing maybe needed in the general support of the entire structure. use caution.

 

[driftpin]

You might want to knock on the door of your upstairs neighbor and introduce yourself, and see what may be above you.

I kinda think the poured floor above you would be supporting any dead/live load, and that for some reason the prior tenant who had that done, was just using what material they had on-hand. It kinda looks like a closet, but it's awfully-shallow. Have you seen similar construction in the apartments of any of your neighbors?

A visit to the building superintendent might get you access to the building plans. Sometimes the ceiling in your apartment is the pour for the floor above, sometimes there is a utilities space above your ceiling.

 

[branimal]

* Not sure what the 4x4’s are resting on below… I was guessing on the subfloor. I live on both the floor in question and the floor below it. And the 4x4’s aren’t in the floor below.
* I will check with the neighbor upstairs
* Its not a closet for sure.
* The floors are not poured. All are 5/8 plywood subfloor then shims (tons of shims) then 3/4” hardwood.


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[firebirdparts]

Whoever built that, if they were smart, they thought that wall held the whole building up.

 

[climb.on]

If I were you I'd buy another 4x4 and fill in that gap. That's a four 4x4 wall if I ever seen one.

 

[climb.on]

Come to think of it, I tore out an interior bathroom wall at our old condo out in Colorado...it was one of those walls that separate the toilet & shower from the sink, like in some hotels. It was definitely not load bearing. The door in that wall had a solid 1 piece 4x10 header. Never seen anything like it...well until your wall there. lol

Definitely do some investigation, but it might not be a bearing wall. Sometimes people just do weird ****.

 

[wssix99]

Buildings like that typically have covenants that don't allow you to move ANY walls without engineering approval.

Is there anything I can replace the 4”x4”s with that are less ugly?

Typically, yes. (For a price.) High rises will have an engineering review process and procedure to have a licensed company make structural changes (on your dime), if required. (They are not going to let you make any changes that could impact the safety or stability of another unit.)

 

[ard]

With the view out the window, it looks like you're remodeling in an apartment building.

If that's the case, I'd use extreme caution before removing parts of walls.

Buildings like that typically have covenants that don't allow you to move ANY walls without engineering approval


Typically, yes. (For a price.) High rises will have an engineering review process and procedure to have a licensed company make structural changes (on your dime), if required. (They are not going to let you make any changes that could impact the safety or stability of another unit.)

Sometimes engineers here get all uppity about giving people advice that might get a poster in trouble- loads, spans, mezzanines...etc

THIS CASE is one where nobody should be encouraging anything.

IMO

 

[Sawdustmaker]

PO of my house did a nice room addition. In the process they used a 4x4 to support a 4x10 header. When I did a small remodel of the dining room I left the 4x4 alone and framed around it. Leave it be. Redo your drywall and don't mess with it. They are more than likely holding some significant weight.

 

[RWorth]

I very rarely side with the engineers here,, however a good general rule of mine is NEVER remove a wall without knowing for sure what it may be supporting. Just as a general observation, I see no reason to put a wall there except to support something above.

 

[TRWham]

Whatever the reason may be, that wall was put there for a purpose. Until you know why it was ever there, you are not free to remove it. Google "Chesterton's fence" for more information.

 

[dave_dj1]

My guess is that whoever built the wall had some 4x4's lying around so they used them. If the wall is not supported below then it can't really be supporting anything above. You should be able to tell if they are supporting any weight just by tapping on them with your fist. Just my armchair .02

 

[CoogarXR]

Is that an identical building across the way? Can you see through their windows if they have that wall too?

 

[branimal]

1. I’m going to check the return wall and see if thats built with 4x4’s. Opening that wall up would at least let more light in. Though it could look odd.
2. I’ve take apart my share of walls in this condo unit and almost all are metal studs of varying sizes. The only other place I’ve seen 4x4’s is under the staircase. So my gut says that this isn’t some scrap wood laying around. But I’m not contractor or architect. So i don’t really know.
3. Dave_dj1 : could the 4x4’s be resting on the joists below it?




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[GMCGarage]

I have this weird “L”-shaped wall in a bedroom I’ve alway wanted to get rid of. It blocks a decent amount of the 8 foot windows. I started ripping the sheet off and found 3 4”x4”’s behind the sheetrock. My guess is that is some type of structural support for the joists above it. I’m going to poke around the other leg of the “L” and see if there are support joists in there as well.

I could cut around the ceiling to find out what is being supported.

Is there anything I can replace the 4”x4”s with that are less ugly?

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You need to expose the ceiling and see what it might be supporting, and then also see what is above that is being supported. Then you can decide if you can rip them out. Might not be able to.

No reason to get an engineer involved until you know what you have.

 

[orangeblood]

Whatever the reason may be, that wall was put there for a purpose. Until you know why it was ever there, you are not free to remove it. Google "Chesterton's fence" for more information.

One of the many things I like about this forum is the mix of horse sense, engineering input, professional opinion, common man science, jackassery and sharp but erudite opinions.

The reference to "Chesterton's fence" is classic.

Thank you sir TRWham.

 

[TRWham]

...

The reference to "Chesterton's fence" is classic.

Thank you sir TRWham.

And thank you for the kind words!

 

[branimal]

There is a closet in the same bedroom as the weird wall. The closet doesn’t sit in a corner but rather 60” off of a wall. See diagram. It’s laid out so theres a void in that corner. I decided to rip that closet out and relocate it to the upper left corner. While I’m ripping the sheet off I find….. more 4x4s. And the 4x4s sit 42” off the back wall. Exactly in line with the weird wall. I cut open the ceiling as many of you suggested and sure enough the 4x4s are providing support to a beam.

Not sure whats going on up there, but someone way more knowledgable than me put that up and I’m not messing with it. My guess is the joists aren’t long enough to reach the edge of the building.

Now Im considering building the closet from the 4x4 marked “B” to the wall. 85” wide x 42” deep.

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[Viper98912]

Apartment/condo building? No freakin way I'm touching anything even remotely structural or anything hidden behind any existing walls.

 

[thickhead]

Off topic.
Are all of those joists in the hangers fire charred?

 

[BillK]

Off topic.
Are all of those joists in the hangers fire charred?

Sure look that way !

 

[branimal]

Off topic.

Are all of those joists in the hangers fire charred?

Could be... building was put up in 1908 as a light manufacturing space.

I’ve seen some charred joists elsewhere.


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[branimal]

Apartment/condo building? No freakin way I'm touching anything even remotely structural or anything hidden behind any existing walls.

Yeah I’m gonna eat it and put the sheet back up.

And extend that closet to the adjacent wall.





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[wssix99]

Wow. Those joists are charred but the truss/beam they go into isn't!

So... those burned joists were specifically replaced in those positions. I can't imagine any scenario or municipality where that would be legal or meet code...

 

[Kev442]

They have one floor supporting another and you guys are worried about the charred timbers. I can't believe the ceiling downstairs isn't bowing under the weight of two stories above it.

 

[mikegt4]

Charred beams and studs are not uncommon in 110 year old buildings, especially old commercial buildings. My guess, and it is a guess, is that the charred beams where cut off to make way for the new support beam (note the joist hangers that were not made in 1908) during the conversion from a commercial building to a condo/apartment.