Feeder Between Main & Sub-panel => Copper vs Aluminum

[7th Kahuna]

Back in January I asked for help in locating an unusual gauge SE cable to run from the main panel to a new sub-panel in the garage. I was pretty definite that I wanted it to be copper rather than aluminum. My dad wanted cooper for safety. He has heard the stories about aluminum wire causing fires. I wasn't so worried about that. We know what we need to do to prevent or at least significantly reduce the risk of fire. No, I wanted copper because of the route I was going to need to pull the cable through. I thought, though heavier, it would give more easily around the bends.

By the time I got the wire, there were so many other things in the walls I almost gave up before I started and just surface routed it. Couldn't do that. In the end it went much smoother than expected.

So why use aluminum over copper? Simple, cost. But I wanted to post this for another reason. After the inspector had signed off the panel and in fact was already back in his truck, he stopped and asked me if I had used aluminum, he had seen the anti oxidant paste under the lugs. I said no copper. Why the paste, he asked. Because the lugs were aluminum. You over thought it, he said and laughed. And then he shared something I thought was important to share with you all:

Per this building inspector, aluminum feeders are allowed for the main panel but aluminum is no longer allowed between a main panel and a sub panel. Why? Fire.

Perhaps others have covered that here, but no one mentioned it in my previous thread. He didn't give me the impression he would have made me tear it out, especially given that he had just signed it off, but now I'm doubly glad I used copper. I need to get my hands on a current copy of the code.

The other question that came up in that thread was whether or not I actually could run 1-1-1-3 SE cable into my main panel. I needed 1-1-1-3 Copper SE cable to support a 125 amp sub panel. Turned out the answer was no. I'm very thankful someone asked. The largest I could use in this panel was 2-2-2-4 (which by the way can very easily be ordered from Lowes and may qualified for free shipping). Anyhow, 2-2-2-4 will support up to 110 amps. Hopefully I can find a 110 amp Square-D breaker. So far no luck. 90 amps yes, 110 no. Seems odd to me.

 

[sberry]

Use 100 breaker, they are common. But what kind of inspector is this? Alum wire is used all the time.

 

[bigb56]

Per this building inspector, aluminum feeders are allowed for the main panel but aluminum is no longer allowed between a main panel and a sub panel. Why? Fire.
.

Maybe a local code or maybe the inspector is mis-informed but there is nothing that says that in the NEC.

As far as fires, aluminum branch circuit wiring with small gauge (10 & 12) solid wire was the culprit back in the 1970's. In fact, only the very early versions had the problems, later versions had better alloys and were safer, but by then the fires had happened and aluminum wiring was condemned by all.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Use 100 breaker, they are common. But what kind of inspector is this? Alum wire is used all the time.

He is a 'small town / multi trade' building inspector here in Los Angeles County. He is old enough to know his stuff and was specific that it was a change in the code.

Maybe a local code or maybe the inspector is mis-informed but there is nothing that says that in the NEC.

As far as fires, aluminum branch circuit wiring with small gauge (10 & 12) solid wire was the culprit back in the 1970's. In fact, only the very early versions had the problems, later versions had better alloys and were safer, but by then the fires had happened and aluminum wiring was condemned by all.

Yeah, that was what I thought. In all honesty his suggestion that it was fires was really just that, his suggestion. I'll ask him more about it the next time we see him, he was literally driving away. In fact if I'm over at the building dept, maybe I'll ask to see the code and blame it on you guys.

 

[Norcal]

It's still code compliant to 10 & 12 AWG AL for branch circuit wiring, but no one manufactures AL in those sizes anymore. There is no restriction on AL feeders either.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Some coastal cities have prohibitions against AL because of the salt laden air, which are allowed.
The California Electrical Code, however, is the simply the 2014 NEC (verbatim) + the California Energy Code.
The Power Companies are exempt from the NEC and local Codes (so that could be the reason why AL service conductors are acceptable)

 

[sberry]

As i have heard, there is federal law, state law and California law.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Not as far as the Electrical Code is concerned though, and it's illegal in CA for unlicensed people to do electrical work on others properties.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Back in January I asked for help in locating an unusual gauge SE cable to run from the main panel to a new sub-panel in the garage. I was pretty definite that I wanted it to be copper rather than aluminum. My dad wanted cooper for safety. He has heard the stories about aluminum wire causing fires. I wasn't so worried about that. We know what we need to do to prevent or at least significantly reduce the risk of fire. No, I wanted copper because of the route I was going to need to pull the cable through. I thought, though heavier, it would give more easily around the bends.

By the time I got the wire, there were so many other things in the walls I almost gave up before I started and just surface routed it. Couldn't do that. In the end it went much smoother than expected.

So why use aluminum over copper? Simple, cost. But I wanted to post this for another reason. After the inspector had signed off the panel and in fact was already back in his truck, he stopped and asked me if I had used aluminum, he had seen the anti oxidant paste under the lugs. I said no copper. Why the paste, he asked. Because the lugs were aluminum. You over thought it, he said and laughed. And then he shared something I thought was important to share with you all:

Per this building inspector, aluminum feeders are allowed for the main panel but aluminum is no longer allowed between a main panel and a sub panel. Why? Fire.

Perhaps others have covered that here, but no one mentioned it in my previous thread. He didn't give me the impression he would have made me tear it out, especially given that he had just signed it off, but now I'm doubly glad I used copper. I need to get my hands on a current copy of the code.

The other question that came up in that thread was whether or not I actually could run 1-1-1-3 SE cable into my main panel. I needed 1-1-1-3 Copper SE cable to support a 125 amp sub panel. Turned out the answer was no. I'm very thankful someone asked. The largest I could use in this panel was 2-2-2-4 (which by the way can very easily be ordered from Lowes and may qualified for free shipping). Anyhow, 2-2-2-4 will support up to 110 amps. Hopefully I can find a 110 amp Square-D breaker. So far no luck. 90 amps yes, 110 no. Seems odd to me.

That is either a local WRITTEN code amendment or he is making it up. Ask him for the reference. Inspector CANNOT make up code as they go. The AHJ is the only authority that can make WRITTEN amendments.

And no one mentioned it in your thread because its not an NEC CODE.

Furthermore, the aluminum wire alloys of today are not the same as the problem prone ones of the 60s and 70s.

Properly terminated aluminum wire has the same fire risk as copper.

And improperly terminated copper can be just as dangerous.

So this inspector is blowing smoke up your ****.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not as far as the Electrical Code is concerned though, and it's illegal in CA for unlicensed people to do electrical work on others properties.

There is no law Im aware of that forbids unlicensed people from doing specifically electrical work.

There is a law forbidding unlicensed people from doing any kind of work for over $500.

 

[alfredeneuman]

There is a law forbidding unlicensed people from doing any kind of work for over $500.

Is the business that you run licensed?

 

[7th Kahuna]

That is either a local WRITTEN code amendment or he is making it up. Ask him for the reference. Inspector CANNOT make up code as they go. The AHJ is the only authority that can make WRITTEN amendments.

As I noted above, I'll ask him about it the next time I see him and post the results here. He wasn't being a hard ****. I challenged him on another of his concerns and he readily acknowledged my point. I know rules for some things are different along the coast, but this project is well inland.

On a side note, some years ago I learned there is actually one inspector who can make up (ok, interpret) the code as he goes, who can effectively tear up your permit, make you tear out your work and redraw a plan, and for the most part I'll error on his side. That would be the fire inspector. I once had a fill-in fire inspector make me tear out a bunch of fire sprinklers that had been already been approved and signed off by his vacationing counterpart. Fortunately we hadn't started drywall. I went to my boss at the time and he told me, 'just do it. There's no recourse.' The delay would have been ridiculous anyway.

 

[7th Kahuna]

This structure we are calling a shop, but from the city's standpoint it is a residential garage with a 3/4 bath. This has led to some interesting conflicts. The city wanted vents in the walls for instance, as a garage would have. We split the difference and gave them two vents but stuck them in the compressor closet. We wanted a flat floor they wanted a slope, they got a very minimal slope. Now they have asked about GFI and AFCI. I reminded them it was a garage and we eliminated any further discussion of AFCI protection, but of course as a garage we are stuck with GFI. Now I have no problem with GFI for general use outlets, we've protected the bathroom, the kitchenette, the exterior receptacles. But what is the current experience with GFI protection on equipment circuits.

I will GFI protect for inspection and can pull it out later if need be. Are 'modern' GFI breakers cool protecting 'vintage' Metal Working and Woodworking equipment. Another question occurs to me, is there even GFI protection for 240 volt systems. Didn't see those at Lowes.

 

[alfredeneuman]

.

Another question occurs to me, is there even GFI protection for 240 volt systems.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electri...Breakers/GFCI/20/N-5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0mh9uZ1z0u3fe

 

[alfredeneuman]

The California Building Codes are subject to amendments only if they are more stringent than the California Codes and are reasonable because of "local climatic, geological, or topographical conditions."

 

[7th Kahuna]

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electri...Breakers/GFCI/20/N-5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0mh9uZ1z0u3fe

Ah, yes. But the question remains. Will a 3HP table saw get along with a 'consumer grade' GFI protector? I remember as a kid, framers complaining that even their SkilSaws were tripping the GFI circuits. I guess we'll find out.

Anyway, this has been a slow project. It's nice to finally be closing up the walls. Eventually I'll publish the details into a thread.

 

[Norcal]

240V GFCI's are not required for residential garages at this time.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Thanks Norcal, good to know.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is the business that you run licensed?

Thats a loaded question.

I work for someone else as a subcontractor and am in the process of getting my license.

Regardless, you havent refuted whatbi said earlier. Just changed the subject.

 

[alfredeneuman]

There is nothing to refute. I agreed with you fully.
Subcontractors are required to be licensed too if total work+materials exceed $500

 

[bigb56]

The laws vary from region to region. Here it is illegal to contract without a license but you can work for others hourly. We also have a general repair licence category for handyman types where they can contract jobs up to $800. (that figure may be higher now, I am going from memory when the special license first became available about 10 years ago). Regardless though you are forbidden to do any work on someones property if that work requires a trade license like plumbing/electrical etc unless you hold that license or work for a holder of that license. Homeowners are allowed to do whatever they want on their own residence so long as it is permitted and passes inspection. So the gray area here is that a home owner can hire an unlicensed person to do plumbing and electrical for them and treat it as if they are doing the work themselves.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

There is nothing to refute. I agreed with you fully.
Subcontractors are required to be licensed too if total work+materials exceed $500

You said it is illegal for an unlicensed person to do electrical on others property.

What i was pointing out earlier is that there is a threshold.

And i dont buy the materials, he does. I work for him.

 

[sberry]

Here you need to sign up for apprentice, in 4 years can take a journeyman test and another year experience to take masters. You can be a contractor with a master on the payroll.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here you need to sign up for apprentice, in 4 years can take a journeyman test and another year experience to take masters. You can be a contractor with a master on the payroll.

Cali doesnt have a masters test.

And the CSLB is ok with the situation as my work experience was acceptable for the license requirements...

 

[alfredeneuman]

"And i dont buy the materials, he does. I work for him."

It sounds like the classic employer/employee relationship, not a subcontractor's.

 

[mm08822]

There is nothing to refute. I agreed with you fully.
Subcontractors are required to be licensed too if total work+materials exceed $500

Depends upon location for specific details. Sub-contracting generally means the licensed entity is not the prime contractor but the work is farmed out to them and they are not in contract with the primary customer. The contractor/gc, etc is the sub's customer.

The laws vary from region to region. Here it is illegal to contract without a license but you can work for others hourly. We also have a general repair licence category for handyman types where they can contract jobs up to $800. (that figure may be higher now, I am going from memory when the special license first became available about 10 years ago). Regardless though you are forbidden to do any work on someones property if that work requires a trade license like plumbing/electrical etc unless you hold that license or work for a holder of that license. Homeowners are allowed to do whatever they want on their own residence so long as it is permitted and passes inspection.
So the gray area here is that a home owner can hire an unlicensed person to do plumbing and electrical for them and treat it as if they are doing the work themselves.

NJ sounds very similar to AZ. However, any contractor job over $500 requires a contract by law. Either a specialty license or Home Improvement contractor license is required. The license means at a minimum you have insurance and are registered with the state for tax collection. Plumbers and Electricians must also be bonded.
A homeowner can only perform work on his own single family dwelling that he resides in. But not in a 2 family home or a home he rents out. All work needs to be permitted and inspected.

The only grey area is that the homeowner is lying about himself doing the work on the permitting forms. In doing so, he takes on the burden of getting the inspection passed. The unlicensed guy doing the work is virtually exonerated from any liability in that regard.

"And i dont buy the materials, he does. I work for him."

It sounds like the classic employer/employee relationship, not a subcontractor's.

That all depends upon his business formation and contractual status with the prime contractor....and what the IRS thinks. He may technically need to be issued 1099's if not incorporated. A Corp and LLC is NJ is required to have liability insurance and workers comp if there are employees.
......

 

[alfredeneuman]

From the California State Licensing Board
"In California, anyone who contracts to perform work on a project that is valued at $500 or more for labor and materials must hold a current, valid license from the CSLB"

It doesn't matter who bought the materials. If the prime contractor buys materials that total $499 and the subcontractor charged $2 to install them, then he would be subject to this.

 

[7th Kahuna]

I'm not sure how this argument got started in my thread, and while interesting, that line from the CSLB is anything but definitive. You may be right about their intent, but it is open to interpretation. There must be a more detailed description.

Imagine a customer has $325 worth of stone left over from a landscape project. They contract with me to build a dry stack waterfall. I charge $200. What is the 'value' of the work?

My contract: $200
The cost to the client: $525
The value in the landscape: $850

The value to me is $200. That is clear. The value to the client is $525 or maybe $850, unless the client happens to be a general contractor in which case the value is whatever the general contractor charged their client, maybe $600, or is it their cost, or ??? Wait, who paid for the stone? Of course the general is almost never going to tell the subcontractor how much they are getting paid, or paid out. I can think of a dozen different ways that could go.

What if the client was going to have to pay $300 to have the excess stone hauled away? Paying me $200 actually saved them $100 and thus the cost to the client was actually a net savings. The 'value' in this case, maybe $300, the cost of disposal. The only number I can logically determine to be the 'value' for CSLB purposes is the amount I receive. That is the value of the work to my company. Incidentally, that is also the value of the work to the Franchise Tax Board, minus any expenses I can provide evidence of.

As I said, you may be right about intent. And a general contractor who buys materials in order to get around a $500 licensing requirement is no doubt bending the rules. But really, $500 worth of labor is nothing. Use the old 3x rule of thumb, that's $250 worth of materials, a $750 dollar job.