Had my first LED bulb failure

[reader2580]

I installed Cree LED light bulbs in a bedroom used as my office three and a half years ago. I had noticed flickering for a time and wasn't sure if it was a bulb or my power. Yesterday I noticed one of the bulbs would go out completely for a seconds at a time.

I am not sure if I take the bulb back to Home Depot or what to do. I think these had 10 year warranties. These are the older model still assembled in the USA.

The bulbs are in an enclosed fixture. but they are supposed to work in enclosed fixtures. I have some of the Cree 4Flow bulbs without heat sinks that I might put in there instead. The other fixture is open.

 

[b-boy]

I went LED with all my lights about 2 years ago. I've had a few failures. I had 2 45W-equivalant floods burn out after a year and I've had a few bulbs go as well. There are probably just a certain percentage that are going to fail early.

I added some LED fixtures to my kitchen. They had the LEDs integrated into the fixture. When the bulb goes, the entire fixture is scrap. I bought several extras just in case one fails. My concern is whether I'll even be able to get a replacement in 5-10 years. I know how quickly Lowes turns over their stock. I had problems finding matching porcelain tiles after only 6 months.

Since then, I've been buying regular fixtures and just using LED bulbs. No more integrated fixtures for me. I'd rather replace a $5 bulb than a $30 fixture.

 

[Mr_fixit]

I've had about 6 failures, not too different from amount of fluorescent light failures. It's dissapointing when I paid amost 5 bucks a bulb for some candelabra base bulbs, but it's now something I expect from overseas products. Good luck with the warranties.

 

[purplezr2]

I had one or two fail. I called customer service, they sent new ones out. Real easy

 

[LaneRover]

I have friends who have had excellent results when they contacted Cree because of a failure.

 

[Falcon67]

I have been using Utilitech LED 3500Ks in the bath fixtures - lost maybe 4 in the last year or so. I may start replacing with another brand, but with low cost bulbs I'm not surprised about fails. Same deal with the older twisty flo bulbs - not unusual to have one **** out. Except one - had one of the very early circular flo units, about 1980 or so, that lasted 4 years of continuous 24 hour service. It was under a garage eve with a pie pan shield and one day a hail stone finally got it. Bummer.

 

[ddawg16]

I'm going on 6-7 years on most of my LED bulbs....0 failures so far..

I will add, FL and LED's have sure changed how we do bulbs.

Who remembers keeping a stock of spare incandescent bulbs in a cabinet? Now, I have one LED bulb, a couple of fluorescents and one incandescent (for the oven). The LED bulb is there because it was a 4-pak and I used 3 of them. The FL's, because I took them out to put in LED's.

 

[reader2580]

I called Cree and they are sending out two of the 4Flow bulbs to replace my bad bulb. They quit selling the 4Flow bulbs, but they have a bunch in the warehouse they are sending out for warranty replacements for enclosed fixtures. (Bulb I had was supposed to work in enclosed fixtures.)

I have no issues with the 4Flow bulbs and have six I bought right after they came out. I decided to move the 4Flow bulbs I have in an open fixture to my enclosed fixture.

I burned out so many CFLs in my previous house I lost track. I was taking about a dozen CFLs per year to get recycled. This is why I went LED in everything in my current house when I moved in late 2014.

 

[checkthisout]

I think the ballasts in them fail. I have had one drop out of the 20 or so I have. It was this fancy looking edison bulb thing and I had in outside fixture..I think it was only rated for indoor use.

In my opinion, future houses should have a central ballast with 12V (or whatever voltage is most efficient) run for all lighting circuits.

This would eliminate the need to have ballast at each fixture. Maybe I'll start a thread on this....

 

[kwschumm]

I bought ten PAR30 floods of different brands for evaluation, which were installed in our great room ceiling cans about a year ago. Of those three have failed. Really not impressed with their quality in general. I have to wonder if the tens of thousands of hours these are rated at are just for the LEDs themselves. I'm sure the LEDs of those that failed still would work, it's the rest of the electronics that fail. Anyway, I'll continue to use LEDs but have taken to saving all purchase information for them for warranty claims and to write a date and vendor on the bulbs before installation. A small PIA for $20 bulbs but it adds up.

 

[checkthisout]

I bought ten PAR30 floods of different brands for evaluation, which were installed in our great room ceiling cans about a year ago. Of those three have failed. Really not impressed with their quality in general. I have to wonder if the tens of thousands of hours these are rated at are just for the LEDs themselves. I'm sure the LEDs of those that failed still would work, it's the rest of the electronics that fail. Anyway, I'll continue to use LEDs but have taken to saving all purchase information for them for warranty claims and to write a date and vendor on the bulbs before installation. A small PIA for $20 bulbs but it adds up.

Last week costco had those on sale for $1.97 for a box of 2.

 

[kwschumm]

Last week costco had those on sale for $1.97 for a box of 2.

Yeah, but I wanted to buy the best ones I could for the test. Huge heat sinks, heavy bulbs, these seemed to be built like tanks and were from $20 to $50 bulbs. It was like 18 months ago too.

 

[cybrdyke]

I have to wonder if the tens of thousands of hours these are rated at are just for the LEDs themselves. I'm sure the LEDs of those that failed still would work, it's the rest of the electronics that fail.

The most common failures are in the driver, but there are alot of other components in them that can fail, including diodes. The hour ratings are for the whole lamp, not just the diodes.

Yeah, but I wanted to buy the best ones I could for the test. Huge heat sinks, heavy bulbs, these seemed to be built like tanks and were from $20 to $50 bulbs. It was like 18 months ago too.

These days, huge heat sinks are a sign of bad design. Well designed lamps dont get hot enough to need them anymore.

CD

 

[marineman]

I think the ballasts in them fail. I have had one drop out of the 20 or so I have. It was this fancy looking edison bulb thing and I had in outside fixture..I think it was only rated for indoor use.

In my opinion, future houses should have a central ballast with 12V (or whatever voltage is most efficient) run for all lighting circuits.

This would eliminate the need to have ballast at each fixture. Maybe I'll start a thread on this....

Not a bad idea, I never really thought of it but surprised it hasn't caught on more. Low voltage outdoor lights have been doing that for a while now, depending on the length of run and how many fixtures 1 or 2 central transformers then everything else in the system is 12 volt direct.

 

[American Locomotive]

I can't believe the Cree 4-flow bulbs are already discontinued. They've only been out for a few years!

These days, huge heat sinks are a sign of bad design. Well designed lamps dont get hot enough to need them anymore.

Sorry that's just completely wrong. Even a 170 lumen/watt LED is only 25% efficient - meaning 75% of the power it consumes gets turned directly into heat.

Modern LED bulbs actually run significantly hotter internally than older ones. The difference now is manufacturers just don't care. The older bulbs with large cast aluminum heatsinks and bodies cost too much to manufacture given the pricing pressures of the LED bulb market. So instead, they just use cheap plastic housings with crappy thin aluminum-substrate PCBs and say "**** it" when the LED dies hit temperatures over 90°C.

The result is a bulb that's internally boiling all of its electrolytic capacitors, damage it's LED die, and causing accelerated wear of its switching components. But hey, at least the plastic housing is only "warm" to the touch, and they don't have the unsightly finned aluminum body anymore!

There's a reason why a lot of low-wattage commercial LED lighting products have finned aluminum heatsinks. That's why your average consumer LED bulb is usually rated for 25,000 hours or less when a commercial fixture is usually rated for near 100,000.

 

[kwschumm]

I can't believe the Cree 4-flow bulbs are already discontinued. They've only been out for a few years!


Sorry that's just completely wrong. Even a 170 lumen/watt LED is only 25% efficient - meaning 75% of the power it consumes gets turned directly into heat.

Modern LED bulbs actually run significantly hotter internally than older ones. The difference now is manufacturers just don't care. The older bulbs with large cast aluminum heatsinks and bodies cost too much to manufacture given the pricing pressures of the LED bulb market. So instead, they just use cheap plastic housings with crappy thin aluminum-substrate PCBs and say "**** it" when the LED dies hit temperatures over 90°C.

The result is a bulb that's internally boiling all of its electrolytic capacitors, damage it's LED die, and causing accelerated wear of its switching components. But hey, at least the plastic housing is only "warm" to the touch, and they don't have the unsightly finned aluminum body anymore!

There's a reason why a lot of low-wattage commercial LED lighting products have finned aluminum heatsinks. That's why your average consumer LED bulb is usually rated for 25,000 hours or less when a commercial fixture is usually rated for near 100,000.

This. Very well said.

 

[cybrdyke]

I can't believe the Cree 4-flow bulbs are already discontinued. They've only been out for a few years!


Sorry that's just completely wrong. Even a 170 lumen/watt LED is only 25% efficient - meaning 75% of the power it consumes gets turned directly into heat.

Modern LED bulbs actually run significantly hotter internally than older ones. The difference now is manufacturers just don't care. The older bulbs with large cast aluminum heatsinks and bodies cost too much to manufacture given the pricing pressures of the LED bulb market. So instead, they just use cheap plastic housings with crappy thin aluminum-substrate PCBs and say "**** it" when the LED dies hit temperatures over 90°C.

The result is a bulb that's internally boiling all of its electrolytic capacitors, damage it's LED die, and causing accelerated wear of its switching components. But hey, at least the plastic housing is only "warm" to the touch, and they don't have the unsightly finned aluminum body anymore!

There's a reason why a lot of low-wattage commercial LED lighting products have finned aluminum heatsinks. That's why your average consumer LED bulb is usually rated for 25,000 hours or less when a commercial fixture is usually rated for near 100,000.

Amazing post. Almost zero accuracy in the whole thing. I dont even know where to start. I guess a good place would be the accusation that good companies have just said **** it...lets make garbage and sell it. That comment alone disqualifies it as an intelligent post .
Newer bulbs run considerably cooler than older bulbs because driver and diode technology has improved dramatically in the last couple of years. Diodes arent pushed to their limits anymore. Instead, they're run far below their max which means they and their driver are both working less hard, resulting in lower operating temperatures. This, in turn, eliminates the need for large heat sinks and also allows for the use of other materials that wouldn't normally be used with LED, like glass.
It's almost impossible at this point to find a finned commercial light bulb or tube from a decent manufacturer. Those with fins are an indication that the manufacturer hasn't moved ahead with technology and still is pushing diodes hard, creating too much heat. Fins are only on lamps because they're necessary. Good lamps dont need them.
You'll see fins on fixtures that are used in cans, in plenums, in highbays, and in high power outdoor fixtures. You need them there because the diodes are being driven harder and because those are high heat environments.
Your comments on life indicate that you dont understand what those figures mean and how they are determined. You're really trying to make the case that an LED light bulb with no heat fins only lasts 25,000 hours but if it had heat fins it would last alot longer? That is NOT why a consumer bulb is listed at 25,000 hours and a commercial fixture is listed at 100,000+.

 

[kwschumm]

Amazing post. Almost zero accuracy in the whole thing. I dont even know where to start. I guess a good place would be the accusation that good companies have just said **** it...lets make garbage and sell it. That comment alone disqualifies it as an intelligent post .

I can't speak to the rest of your post but I quoted the text I disagree with. Have you ever worked for a Fortune 500 company? They ship products with major known defects all the time. I've worked for two BIG tech companies and both of them knew all about defects before shipment. They said "**** it" and shipped. Just like that. Their favorite motto is, "The time comes when you shoot the engineers and ship the product".

 

[American Locomotive]

.lets make garbage and sell it.

Companies make garbage all the time and sell it. The warranty department will calculate thousands of variables, including the price point of the bulbs, expected failure rate, expected warranty-return rate of failed bulbs, etc... As long as it all works out to a profit in the end, they will happily ship garbage.

Newer bulbs run considerably cooler than older bulbs because driver and diode technology has improved dramatically in the last couple of years.
.....................
This, in turn, eliminates the need for large heat sinks and also allows for the use of other materials that wouldn't normally be used with LED, like glass.

Have you ever actually took one of those "newer technology" bulbs apart? Measured the internal temperatures as they run? I have. It doesn't matter how efficient the driver, etc, whatever is. The very best LED diodes are only around 25% efficient. This means an 11 watt "75 Watt Equivalent" LED is dissipating over 8 watts of heat.

8 watts is a massive amount of heat to dissipate through a plastic or glass housing. I've seen modern, heatsink-less name-brand bulbs run over 110°C at the LED die.

Your comments on life indicate that you dont understand what those figures mean and how they are determined. You're really trying to make the case that an LED light bulb with no heat fins only lasts 25,000 hours but if it had heat fins it would last alot longer? That is NOT why a consumer bulb is listed at 25,000 hours and a commercial fixture is listed at 100,000+.

Yes, it would literally last longer. Semiconductor and capacitor life decrease exponentially as temperature rises. A 10°C temperature increase will HALVE the life of an electrolytic capacitor. Likewise a junction temperature of 95°C and 105°C is the difference between an LED die lasting 20,000 hours and 10,000 hours. I've attached some images taken directly from LED and capacitor datasheets provided by the manufacturers.

A bulb with a heatsink will dissipate heat more efficiently, resulting in lower LED junction temperature, lower capacitor temperature and overall longer life. Modern plastic/glass LED bulbs have short 15,000-25,000 design lives because they run so hot internally.

Commercial/Industrial LED fixtures almost always have heatsinks, or substantial metal structures to conduct heat away from the LED dies. This is because they have to keep the junction temperature down to hit those 100,000 hour design lives. Some commercial products like the drop-in LED replacement tubes for fluorescent lights can get away without heatsinks because they're dissipating the heat over a very large surface area. Residential screw-in bulbs do not get the luxury of having a large surface area.

 

[reader2580]

Why is it a problem that consumer LED bulbs only last 25,000 hours instead of 100,000 hours? A 25,000 hour bulb will still last 10 to 20 years depending on how many hours per day it is used.

 

[American Locomotive]

That's the "design life". Most of these consumer LED bulbs will die well short of their "rated" 25,000 hours because of the ultra high temperatures they run at.

 

[Dragfluid]

The most common failures are in the driver, but there are alot of other components in them that can fail, including diodes. The hour ratings are for the whole lamp, not just the diodes.


These days, huge heat sinks are a sign of bad design. Well designed lamps dont get hot enough to need them anymore.

CD

CD, aren't we still sort of in our infancy with LED's? Yes, I know they been around for a few years, but things keep changing,,,,,,,,,,, hopefully for the better and not just the cheaper. Do you think that the better is still to come?

 

[yeldogt]

I went LED with all my lights about 2 years ago. I've had a few failures. I had 2 45W-equivalant floods burn out after a year and I've had a few bulbs go as well. There are probably just a certain percentage that are going to fail early.

I added some LED fixtures to my kitchen. They had the LEDs integrated into the fixture. When the bulb goes, the entire fixture is scrap. I bought several extras just in case one fails. My concern is whether I'll even be able to get a replacement in 5-10 years. I know how quickly Lowes turns over their stock. I had problems finding matching porcelain tiles after only 6 months.

Since then, I've been buying regular fixtures and just using LED bulbs. No more integrated fixtures for me. I'd rather replace a $5 bulb than a $30 fixture.

My reason for not going with proprietary LED in my new build -- the high quality pin point recessed fixtures are extremely expensive and I was really worried about having 6 or 8 in a room and one failing .. I just know getting a replacement or having it match will be a problem no mater what the manufacturer says. Went with conventional MR16 bulbs.

 

[cybrdyke]

CD, aren't we still sort of in our infancy with LED's? Yes, I know they been around for a few years, but things keep changing,,,,,,,,,,, hopefully for the better and not just the cheaper. Do you think that the better is still to come?

In the grand scheme of things, yes, LED is still in it's infancy.
When LED lamps first became legit, we were only getting about 20 lumens per watt. At that low rate, we had to overdrive the diodes to get enough light to make them useful, which made them run very hot and hurt their longevity.
But today, just a few short years later, there are diodes in the lab that are acheiving well over 200 lumens per watt, 10 times better. Using these diodes, we dont need to run them at max output. We can run them at half or less and they run very cool and last quite a lot longer.
There will still be some improvement in efficacy in the next few years, but we're at a point where we're wondering if it's worth it. I mean, a lamp that was 100 watts is now only a 10 watt lamp. We saved 90%. But now, if you want to increase it's performance by 50%, you'll only save 5 watts. Is 5 watts worth the R&D cost? That's the dilemma.
What you are going to see is controllability features and other cool things combined with LED technology. We already have motion sensor lamps, radio lamps, video lamps, wifi lamps, color changing lamps. Soon, you'll have IoT lighting products and other amazing technologies.
Are you interested in the future? Check out this video.....

CD

 

[cybrdyke]

That's the "design life".

No it's not.

 

[American Locomotive]

In the grand scheme of things, yes, LED is still in it's infancy.
Using these diodes, we dont need to run them at max output. We can run them at half or less and they run very cool and last quite a lot longer.
CD

The efficiency of LED diodes is still abysmal in the grand scheme of things. The very best LED lamps (~170 lumens/watts ) have diodes that are 25% efficient. "Lesser" LEDs around 100 lumens/watt are around 15% efficient. Watts are watts. An 11 watt bulb running at 25% efficiency is dissipating 8.25 watts of heat, and 11 watt bulb running at 15% efficiency is dissipating 9.35 watts of heat. Essentially the same amount of thermal energy as far as a cooling solution is concerned.

Compere these three bulbs:
- Cree SA19-11027MDFD-12DE26-1-1: No heatsink, 11.2 watts, 1130 lumens: 9.56 Watts Heat Dissipation.

- Euri Lighting EA19-4002cec: No heatsink, 12 watts, 1100 lumens: 10.4 Watts Heat Dissipation.

- Green Creative 16176: "Badly Designed" with heatsink, 12 watts, 1150 lumens: 10.32 Watts Heat Dissipation

So these "modern" "cool running" LED bulbs without finned heatsinks are still dissipating just as much heat energy as that "poorly designed" one with a heatsink. The difference is instead of the trying to get the heat out of the bulb, they're just letting the internals of the bulbs cook themselves to death.

The numbers don't lie.

 

[Aaron_W]

I've been replacing bulbs with LEDs since 2012, I probably replaced about 25% the first year, and have done a few more each year since. I'm close to 100% LED now.

The oldest are going on 6 years old and I haven't had to replace any so far. Kind of a mixed bag of brands, I was fussier in the beginning but the past two years I'll just grab a 4 pack of whatever 60w and 100w Home Depot has on sale to replace non-LEDs as they fail.

 

[kwschumm]

Some of mine died with the "flicker of death". It's a horrible failure mode, it's like a slow erratically flashing strobe. After a minute or two I'd go nuts and have to immediately get that bulb out of the socket.

 

[bjcouche]

I've been using LED bulbs in 10 CAN lights in my kitchen and they get a LOT of hours per day. I've been writing the installation dates on them to watch the failure rate. I bought $10-$20 Cree PAR30 bulbs and not cheaper ones. What I found out is that the LED bulbs were lasting FEWER hours than the halogen bulbs on the same switch. On average they lasted about 1 year. I switched to a newer style of cree bulb (older style no longer available) and had the same results. Then I REMOVED the dimmer switch (I always had it on 100% anyway). Now the failures have completely vanished, and the LED's have way outlasted the halogens. I can't vouch for "LED compatible" dimmers but if you are having failures, first remove the dimmer.
Another thought, It's my understanding that the hour test for bulbs is for a bulb in a porcelain base, with the base pointing down (opposite that of most installations) with the bulb in free air. Thus if you place a LED bulb base up, put a lampshade around it, put a fixture around it, mount it in a can light,etc. The electronic driver will get hotter and you will get premature failures as "test conditions" don't approximate real life use.
Brian

 

[reader2580]

I remember when Mythbusters tested the effects of turning on/off various types of light bulbs back in 2006. The incandescent and CFL bulbs died fairly quickly. The LED bulb was still working after six weeks of being cycled every two minutes. I recall it had been cycled something like 25,000 times. The LED bulb of the day looked very different from what we buy today.