Cabinet Making Question

[Greatwhitewing]

I'll ask the quick question first then elaborate further down.

Can I use cheaper materials like pine (softwood) for hidden parts and hardwoods like red oak for visible parts? Pine for hidden sides, backs and top frame, kick panel etc.


Will the different wood species work well structurally?

I have no experience making finish grade cabinets previously and realize it would be a large undertaking but have made things using the techniques and precision of cabinets previously. I use Kreg pocket-hole joinery.
Cabinets would be simple face frame with a top frame, 3/4 thick sides and bottom, 1/4 backs. Not sure yet if I would stain or paint, probably paint.

Possible I may have the doors made by others. I feel I can handle the drawers and drawer fronts but the doors might be but a great excuse to get a good router table....

Probably have the countertops made and installed by experts

Kreg has a very nice booklet with lots of details that has me considering a project.

 

[acer66]

That is done all the time, better material for face frame, doors and exposed cabinet sides etc..

Really like pocket screws, I just build a cheap miters saw cabinet with additional storage cabinets
out of scrap particle boards and used 1x pine for the face frame all done with pocket screws for a buddies shop.

Not pretty but it is rock solid.

 

[Greatwhitewing]

That is done all the time, better material for face frame, doors and exposed cabinet sides etc..

Really like pocket screws, I just build a cheap miters saw cabinet with additional storage cabinets
out of scrap particle boards and used 1x pine for the face frame all done with pocket screws for a buddies shop.

Not pretty but it is rock solid.

The pocket screws are amazing, maybe too good having me think I can do more than I can..lol

I am very satisfied with several other tools in the Kreg lineup. The mobile work centers and saw guides are also very useful for me. I only have a small Bosh portable table saw so the accu-cut and rip-saw guides help be quite a bit.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Can I use cheaper materials like pine (softwood) for hidden parts and hardwoods like red oak for visible parts? Pine for hidden sides, backs and top frame, kick panel etc.

Why stop there? Particle board, MDF, melamine , etc,are very common in the box biz.

I like tempered panel, MDO, and the long MDF boards if you can get it. Plywood drawers bottoms make nice slides in a garage.

I have heard pocket screws have all but killed off biscuits, dowels, aND loose tenon.

 

[glentre]

High quality cabinets using different species of wood were made several hundred years ago and are still being made that way today. More often than not, expensive antique furniture will have different woods.

As a suggestion, remember that wood expands and contracts with humidity, not temperature as with metal. And, it expands/contracts perpendicular to the grain and little to none parallel to the grain. In other words, a board will shrink or expand along its width but not its length. Also, some woods move more than others. It's important to consider this when selecting woods, where in the cabinet they will be used and how they will be fastened.

Glen

 

[Greatwhitewing]

High quality cabinets using different species of wood were made several hundred years ago and are still being made that way today. More often than not, expensive antique furniture will have different woods.

As a suggestion, remember that wood expands and contracts with humidity, not temperature as with metal. And, it expands/contracts perpendicular to the grain and little to none parallel to the grain. In other words, a board will shrink or expand along its width but not its length. Also, some woods move more than others. It's important to consider this when selecting woods, where in the cabinet they will be used and how they will be fastened.

Glen

Good to know Glen, thanks

 

[glentre]

Here's an interesting article on the subject.

www.finewoodworking.com/2013/08/29/calculating-for-wood-movement

It addresses wood movement in furniture making and has reverences to other articles. You can also find numerous articles on the net regarding this subject.

When dealing with wood, there is one law regarding wood movement that should never be ignored. "Thou shalt not screw with mother nature". Wood WILL move and if you try to prevent it from doing so in your construction, serious damage to the piece will be likely. Doesn't mean you should shy away from mixing woods........just understand that some allowances need to be made to permit the movement to happen.

Glen

 

[Wolfman6]

Make all your cabinet interiors with pre finished maple ply. It will save you a bunch of time and effort and look professional. Finishing interiors of cabinets is never a job that anyone likes to do. You may have to go to a real lumber yard or plywood supplier to get it, but it is well worth the effort.

 

[niget2002]

If you plan on painting, look at using something cheaper than oak. The nicer/ more expensive woods are great if you plan on staining them, but a waste if you're going to be painting.

I agree with Wolfman about using pre-finished maple ply for the interiors of the boxes. Saves a lot of time and headache.

 

[ssdave]

Make all your cabinet interiors with pre finished maple ply. It will save you a bunch of time and effort and look professional. Finishing interiors of cabinets is never a job that anyone likes to do. You may have to go to a real lumber yard or plywood supplier to get it, but it is well worth the effort.

Or Melamine. I just had a fairly high end set of cabinets done for a house. I chose melamine over wood for the cabinet insides, as it's much more functional and easier to clean. The cabinet shop would do maple or melamine, my choice, for the same price. Realistically, I think it costs them a bit less to use the melamine.

 

[6768rogues]

If you look around online there are places that sell doors and drawer fronts in any size or species, stainable or paintable. Making nice doors and drawer fronts is a lot of work at home, but a shop equipped for it can turn them out by the dozens.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you look around online there are places that sell doors and drawer fronts in any size or species, stainable or paintable. Making nice doors and drawer fronts is a lot of work at home, but a shop equipped for it can turn them out by the dozens.

Excellent advice ! Assuming you can match the species of wood and finish (or can buy the material from the door supplier), you can get fantastic results. I hate cabinet interiors that are pressboard/OSB or other "man made" material. Spend the money and use AB or AC grade plywood.

Spend extra for the BEST hinges you can find. The good one make is very easy to adjust the doors.

 

[Camper]

I just finished making a bunch of cabinets...not perfect but good enough for me. Used Birch plywood for the sides and back and poplar for the frames. I cut all the pieces for the sides and backs and finished them before I assembled the cabinets.

 

[kbs2244]

Do you watch Antique Roadshow?
Your idea is not very new.
It is centuries old

 

[rburke65]

Yes....happens everyday and has been done for years. Good luck.

 

[glentre]

Speaking of hinges, you might want to look into the Euro type. If you're going with face frames, they have hinges for that which are adjustable in all directions and are hidden. A home shop does not have the capability to make cabinet boxes that are square so face frames are a good way to hide this.

i agree that melamine interiors are nice.....have them in my own home. But, melamine panels chip on the edges when cut on a standard table saw but your face frames will hide that. Commercial shops have panel saws with dual blades to prevent this or they cut their parts using a CNC router.

And, thinking about that, you could go to a commercial shop as most today are automated and can plan your boxes in any material you want on a computer and download the info to the shop machines which cut the parts to size and drill all the construction holes. Some even machine for the pocket screws at the same time. They can assemble the boxes or you can take the parts and assemble them at home. Then make and finish your own face frames and doors.

Sounds like you are on a fun project.

Glen

 

[Greatwhitewing]

Speaking of hinges, you might want to look into the Euro type. If you're going with face frames, they have hinges for that which are adjustable in all directions and are hidden. A home shop does not have the capability to make cabinet boxes that are square so face frames are a good way to hide this.

i agree that melamine interiors are nice.....have them in my own home. But, melamine panels chip on the edges when cut on a standard table saw but your face frames will hide that. Commercial shops have panel saws with dual blades to prevent this or they cut their parts using a CNC router.

And, thinking about that, you could go to a commercial shop as most today are automated and can plan your boxes in any material you want on a computer and download the info to the shop machines which cut the parts to size and drill all the construction holes. Some even machine for the pocket screws at the same time. They can assemble the boxes or you can take the parts and assemble them at home. Then make and finish your own face frames and doors.

Sounds like you are on a fun project.

Glen

I was planning on the 35mm euro hinges. Kregg makes a jig those and they sound awesome, easy and very adjustable

 

[Kaizen]

you see norm Abraham build a kitchen on new yankee workshop? he used plywood for the boxes. you can find it on youtube.
with the kreg screws.......make sure you use glue. the screws imo are more of a clamp until the glue dries. alone they are not good enough. my number one choice for face frames on cabinets.

 

[Zippercat]

I was planning on the 35mm euro hinges. Kregg makes a jig those and they sound awesome, easy and very adjustable

Absolutely get the Kreg hinge jig. Saves a ton of time and you’ll get great results. Watch a couple YouTube vids and tinker with some scrap to learn how to use it.

I recommend the Kreg jig for shelf holes too.

 

[Cooter Brown]

I'm a cabinetmaker, semi retired at this point.

This is the way most modern shops operate:

Make your face frames first. Use pocket screws and make the stiles 1 1/2". This makes sizing easier and hardware much easier to attach.

Make the carcasses (boxes) 1/16" wider inside dimension than the face frame. Assemble so that the the face frame overlaps the inside of the box by 1/32" on each side. This allows you to use frameless type hinges and to attach them and the drawer slides directly to the box and not have to block it out. This is for cabinets inside a run--you might have to handle end cabinets differently depending on how you handle the end panel, i.e. 1/4" or 3/4".

Once the face frames are made, everything else, carcasses, drawers, drawer fronts, doors, size off of them.

Pre finish everything--face frames, drawer fronts, doors, all before you cut the first piece of plywood for the carcasses. This saves a LOT of room in the shop. As others have said use prefinished plywood for the carcasses. My lumber yard carries it in birch and maple. Birch is fine.

Assemble the carcasses with screws--frankly glue is not needed on properly constructed wall cabinets with proper backs, spreaders/nailers and glued on face frames.

Attach the face frames to the carcasses with pocket screws and glue. Hide the pocket screws on end cabinets with applied panels. To protect the finish on the face frames during assembly, use something like the Bessey K body clamps to hold them to the carcasse (only use for that kind of clamp to me). Make the pocket holes for the face frames BEFORE you assemble the box/carcasse.

If you plan properly, on assembly day you'll have a stack of carcasse parts and drawers, doors, and face frames, all pre finished and your hardware laid out. You'll build each box, then apply the face frame, hardware, doors, drawers and any other hardware. Put the finished cabinet in a safe corner of the shop and never touch it again until you're ready for install. Build the next cabinet.

I hope that's reasonably clear.

 

[Greatwhitewing]

Cooter, great post, thanks

It is indeed reasonably clear

 

[Cooter Brown]

Hope it helps. One other thing--if you are using 1/4" backs use staples to attach. They are very strong and you can get a stapler for fairly short money--I've got a cheap Bostich that has lasted for years.

Any other questions feel free to send a PM if you want.

 

[Greatwhitewing]

Hope it helps. One other thing--if you are using 1/4" backs use staples to attach. They are very strong and you can get a stapler for fairly short money--I've got a cheap Bostich that has lasted for years.

Any other questions feel free to send a PM if you want.

I have a pretty decent pneumatic stapler which I use often enough

 

[acer66]

@Cooter Brown, would you not loose space if you would make the cabinet carcasses a 1/16” wider than the inside dimensions of the face frame or do I misunderstand your post?

 

[Cooter Brown]

@Cooter Brown, would you not loose space if you would make the cabinet carcasses a 1/16” wider than the inside dimensions of the face frame or do I misunderstand your post?

If I understand what you're saying the loss of cubic feet of storage space is negligible. You're going to overhang the face frame off each side of the box anyway, so that cabinets that are installed next to each other are only touching on the face frames, and cabinets that are against a wall are easier to scribe to the wall.

The main benefit of the method I suggested is that installation of the hinges and drawer slides is greatly simplified. They can be mounted (screwed) directly to the inside walls of the cabinet. Anything more than 1/32" or so requires mounting the hinge only to the face frame (very weak) unless you add a block out of some type. Block outs would also have to be made for drawer slides, unless a rear mount is used (more cost, another step). All of this adds complexity/time to the job for not a lot of gain.

The reason I use 1 1/2" stiles is that when a 3/4" end panel is used--like a raised panel--I still get the inside spacing I want (mostly). The only time I have to block out is if I use a 1/4" end panel. By "blocking out" I'm reffering to adding to the inside of the cabinet a separate piece of wood the same size as the inside overhang of the cabinet stile. This is to mount the hardware to. The hardware has to be in the same plane as the inside edge of the stile.

The drawers stay the same size, by the way.

I hope all this is clear--I've done it for so long and so much that I might be oversimplifying.

 

[tjpavlov]

Cooter..... What finish would you recommend for cabinet drawer boxes? I'm building my first drawers for a built in cabinet in my living room and am a little stumped.

 

[James-W]

I have made cabinets and I have made raised panel doors. If you aren't set up to make raised panel doors all the time, then it is NOT an easy job to make them. You can certainly do it, there is no reason why you can't, but it is time consuming and you will no doubt waste a lot of material before you get it right. My suggestion is to just buy some nice cabinets and move on.

 

[Cooter Brown]

Cooter..... What finish would you recommend for cabinet drawer boxes? I'm building my first drawers for a built in cabinet in my living room and am a little stumped.

Depends on the situation and materials used, usually the same lacquer I used for the rest of the finishing.

I have made cabinets and I have made raised panel doors. If you aren't set up to make raised panel doors all the time, then it is NOT an easy job to make them. You can certainly do it, there is no reason why you can't, but it is time consuming and you will no doubt waste a lot of material before you get it right. My suggestion is to just buy some nice cabinets and move on.

There's a lot to be said for that approach. I've got multiple shapers set up and door making is still time consuming. It's also my favorite part of the job. But there have been times when work was stacked up that I've outsourced the doors and drawer boxes. The dollars more than made sense.

Making your own cabinets as a homeowner is not really something you do because it always makes the most economic sense, but for personal satisfaction.

 

[ddawg16]

I just finished a 'redux' of my kitchen. I make all my cabinets except for the doors. I've done it...but it's just not worth my time. Easier to just buy them local manuf....they show up ready to stain....

Like Cotter stated....make the side panels about 1/16-1/8 inset from the face frame. When you are joining them together it makes for a much cleaner look since the face frames will be flush. I've also found another use for that gap....you can run wire down it to power LED strip lights.

I like to use Melamine for the bottom shelf and all shelves in the cabinet. They make Maple Melamine that looks just like the plywood. It holds up so much better than plywood when you have dishes on it. I also use it for the lower cabinet under the sink. So easy to clean....but the sides are Maple or Birch plywood.

This is one of my face frames....

 

[6768rogues]

We bought high quality cabinets for our kitchen. They were finished with lacquer primarily because in production it dries immediately so the cabinets can be boxed and shipped. That finish lasted about 5 years. I sanded them and put on urethane which has lasted 25 years so far and looks great.

 

[acer66]

If I understand what you're saying the loss of cubic feet of storage space is negligible. You're going to overhang the face frame off each side of the box anyway, so that cabinets that are installed next to each other are only touching on the face frames, and cabinets that are against a wall are easier to scribe to the wall.

The main benefit of the method I suggested is that installation of the hinges and drawer slides is greatly simplified. They can be mounted (screwed) directly to the inside walls of the cabinet. Anything more than 1/32" or so requires mounting the hinge only to the face frame (very weak) unless you add a block out of some type. Block outs would also have to be made for drawer slides, unless a rear mount is used (more cost, another step). All of this adds complexity/time to the job for not a lot of gain.

The reason I use 1 1/2" stiles is that when a 3/4" end panel is used--like a raised panel--I still get the inside spacing I want (mostly). The only time I have to block out is if I use a 1/4" end panel. By "blocking out" I'm reffering to adding to the inside of the cabinet a separate piece of wood the same size as the inside overhang of the cabinet stile. This is to mount the hardware to. The hardware has to be in the same plane as the inside edge of the stile.

The drawers stay the same size, by the way.

I hope all this is clear--I've done it for so long and so much that I might be oversimplifying.

No all clear, thank you.