Challenger socket set date?

[Oldtuleguy]

I have been watching this set languish on ebay for a while now, and finally had to buy it as it looked interesting, even has original paper tag. I am guessing it is 50s? Here are some pics

 

[twertsy]

I have a couple sets of these, and consider them to be from the late 50's to early 60's.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Seems like info on the challenger stuff is somewhat limited

 

[Private Lugnutz]

How are the ratchet and other handles marked, Otg? Are there any markings (i.e., OEM) other than the brand? Do the sockets and the female drive bells on the extensions have the * mark where the detent balls on the male drive studs should be positioned?

If you mean catalogs, info is limited, and somewhat confusing (challenger as solo brand, challenger as sub-brand of Fleet, PENENS, Proto, and PTII, etc)for the later production.

The whole history of the Challenger line is strange.

It first shows up in 1940, on page 24 of Plomb Tools Catalog #19, for Challenger socket drive sets 4700X & Y, 5200 X & Y, and 5400 X & Y. Don (d42jeep) and Carla have some fabulous examples of these early sets. But it doesn't show up again in any 1940's Plomb or Plomb/Proto catalog. After a proud and bold introduction, it was immediately dropped.

In fact, the next time we see it show up again in public domain literature is a 1950-51 Woodbury Hardware Store catalog that four.cycle posted, linked here.

Scroll down. Your set looks like a newer version of Set No. 301, with a steel handle instead of a leather handle. Otherwise, similar if not identical style of tools, and the same exact number (17) and types of pieces.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Yes I suspect it is that set but with steel handle. Paint is green krinkle. I will look at it some more for markings.

 

[d42jeep]

If you are missing anything I have these Challenger flea finds sitting in my Proto box.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Thanks I will check my challenger collection to see if I need any of that!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Here are some pics for lugs. Holes on female ends of extensions. No detent in sockets, just straight square holes. Sockets have typical roll of metal at the bottom of broachings, so hot broached.

 

[3baygarage]

I think it’s now safe to say some of the unmarked Penens style tools are Challenger. Is the speeder branded? I’ve seen a bunch unbranded.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

The speeder is marked, but sliding t is not

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here are some pics for lugs. Holes on female ends of extensions. No detent in sockets, just straight square holes. Sockets have typical roll of metal at the bottom of broachings, so hot broached.

Thanks.

Interesting that the extension is marked 'MADE IN U.S.A.' but the ratchet is marked 'MFD USA'. Since the leather handled set in the 1950-1951 Woodbury Hardware catalog probably places your set later than that, I wouldn't've expected to see any 'MADE IN U.S.A.' markings.

So just to confirm, no detent in the inner wall of the sockets and no * mark on the outer wall of the sockets? That's interesting. That makes me wonder when that started, and which of the latter day factories within the Pendleton (nee Plomb) Empire started it. All of the socket drive tools with female openings, whether PENENS, Fleet, Proto Challenger, Challenger, etc, had it. (Except for 1/4-inch drive stuff, which ostensibly didn't need it.)

I think it’s now safe to say some of the unmarked Penens style tools are Challenger.

If you're saying that because the tools have PENENS model numbers, that's an incisive observation, 3bay. EDIT: To qualify, those are more specifically PENENS Fleet Quality Brand model numbers. PENENS proper (no sub-brand) 1/2-inch drive pcs are 16xx model numbers.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Sockets say made in usa as well. No mention of penens on anything.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That's very interesting. One piece is an anomaly. Many pieces is not. This is now something that now challenges, pun intended, the rationale we just used. I have no explanation for a steel-handled Challenger set case pre-dating a leather-handled Challenger set case (dated to 1950 vis-à-vis the Woodbury catalog), but there are any number of possibilities that would be easier to accept, logically, for me, than the concept of PENENS (or some arm of the Plomb Empire) routinely marking Challenger tools 'MADE IN U.S.A.' after 1947.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

No mention of penens on anything.

But those are PENENS Fleet model numbers, Otg, right out of the 1950 PENENS Fleet Quality Brand catalog. They match the pieces in that catalog exactly.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

For a buy described almost like an afterthought 'mercy' purchase, this is turning out to be quite an acquisition.

Unless we're willing to question the MADE-to-MFD. cutover, we'd have to consider the 'MADE in U.S.A.' pieces as pre-1947. And if those pieces are original to each other and the case as a set, it would make it one of the earliest sets to have pieces actually marked Challenger. (The pieces in the 1939/1940 Challenger sets are not - they stuck a Challenger decal under the lid.) That leaves the MFD. USA and R-10 marked ratchet in limbo, but it could've been added later. Or it's an early 1948 set put together with mostly MADE and some MFD pieces.

What made you think 50's? The logo under the lid?

I think Todd needs to dig his sets out.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Looks like typical early 50s penens. Seems like some unusual differences though as you noted. The set is basically unused and as noted still has paper tag, so I don't think anything has been added. I would guess 46 to 53 on date based on current info.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

There is a penens ad from 1959 on ebay that shows a very similar set on page 2. There is also a 1951 fleet ad that shows what looks like the exact set

 

[DadsTools]

Yet another episode in the continuing series of the Plomb/Proto Empire Lottery. Definitely leaves you scratching your head at times.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Looks like any thing goes after 1950. Fleet, challenger proto etc same tools different brands

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Looks like any thing goes after 1950. Fleet, challenger proto etc same tools different brands

And different part numbers. I still think your set (except for the MFD. USA ratchet) is pre-1948, and probably one of the earliest sets actually marked Challenger, as opposed to just being called that in a catalog (as in 1940). Regardless of the brand in the 'anything goes' era, any tool with a female drive opening has the little * mark over the detent location in common. You have a unique set.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Well I am not an expert on 50ish penens stuff but am curious now. If anyone else has some of this stuff maybe they could chime in and post some pics!

 

[Jaydb07]

And different part numbers. I still think your set (except for the MFD. USA ratchet) is pre-1948, and probably one of the earliest sets actually marked Challenger, as opposed to just being called that in a catalog (as in 1940). Regardless of the brand in the 'anything goes' era, any tool with a female drive opening has the little * mark over the detent location in common. You have a unique set.

Hey I just picked up this Fleet Chicago ratchet



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[Oldtuleguy]

Nice. Looks like an early one. Here is a pat pending r12 challenger ratchet

 

[Jaydb07]

Nice. Looks like an early one. Here is a pat pending r12 challenger ratchet

I want one.


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[Oldtuleguy]

Picked up this early challenger 3/8 nut spinner set to go with the 1/2 drive set

 

[bmwrd0]

So, a few years ago I was in an antique mall and found this box

It was filled with a mix of cheapo and Challenger metrics. But it is a dead ringer for the Proto box for the 5200C set, including the color, with no Proto label. It is now filled with overflow Proto LA

Well, a few days ago I was in the Restore and I found this sitting on a shelf.

I have since put those Challenger metrics in there

These boxes exactly match the catalog listing in the Proto catalogs, neither has a label, the colors are Challenger and Proto colors from the periods. I don't know what the No. 2400 refers too. What are they?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

From the 1951 challenger tools catalog. I suspect yours are later versions. Challenger used red on some later sets, as well as that greenish color.Also pennens, fleet, etc used red. Vlchek, etc... all pendleton.

 

[bmwrd0]

Well, it would make some sense with the Challenger sockets I found in it, but why do neither set have labels? There isn't even any trace of glue or Decals. Nothing.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That is curious. Rarely does anyone take the time to clean off decals.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I have seen a few with just a paper insert, like this one on ebay

 

[d42jeep]

That is curious. Rarely does anyone take the time to clean off decals.

Since Indestro was making so many contract tools perhaps there never was a manufacturers label on whatever set came in that box.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Here is one with a decal, but is stuck to the plastic tray, no label on outside.

 

[bmwrd0]

Interesting, I hadn't thought of checking photos on eBay. So, now that I have, it seems when they bother to show the lid, they all have a sticker on it, with one exception, and on that, you can see the residue where the sticker was. Also, the later red cases are a different red (brighter) and don't have rounded corners.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Stanley used red. Az game and fish?