Knipex needlenose- twisty, mushy, bendy

[Davefr]

LOL. It amazes me how far people will go to try to justify to themselves SO's latest pricing increase.

Knipex and Stahlwille or any of the German pliers can be shipped to you from amazon.de for ~$25. $55 for needle nose pliers is highway robbery.

Yes, most of SO's pricing is too high unless you need the services of a local dealer. And most of the time you can find products that are equivalent quality/performance at lower prices.

However the SO Talon Grip needle nose pliers are an exception. They are well worth the price. Klein Journeyman's come next. Knipex is towards the bottom.

 

[tonyciambrone]

Whilst we are beating this horse...

I have said for a long time the Needle Nose is the worst Knipex product there is. As others have said, I probably neglected to buy the mechanics design, or maybe a flat nose plier, but I will never buy a Knipex needle nose design (or NWS but that's a different story) again.

Channellock 738 and 317 are good options, and cheaper. I'm sure the Snap-On's are good too.

 

[Itsjustdirt]

UPDATES

I just bought both the Klein J203-8N and the Knipex 38 11 200 pliers. I've learned a lot in this thread, thanks.

1. These can't be compared. Its like comparing a 100lb sledge to a finish carpenters hammer. I've learned that one needle nose plier dose not fit all jobs.

2. Interesting finding (and maybe validation for the flexy, bendy feel of Knipex). I tested the two (and a pair of old channel locks) on an old round screwdriver. The Klein and Channel locks did not flex much at all but they did have a tendency to "push" the round screwdriver out of their grips. Its natural....Angled clamping force on a round object. Then, when I would attempt to twist the screwdriver it would immediately pop out of the pliers.

Here's the fun part- Try that with the knipex 38 11 200- It doesn't pop out. I can literally spin the screwdriver (with force) while gripped and it doesn't move/fall out of the pliers grip. Although the Kleins likely give a much higher clamping pressure with less flex and more material, the Knipex actually holds the screwdriver better! I'm sure it would be a different story on a square/flat object though.

Thanks for all the replies.

Question for the snap on guys- There are many different versions of the Talon pliers. A couple different versions have already been posted. Are the long reach, needle nose with cutters (talon version) strong, mechanics pliers as well, or something in between. Should I stick with the shorter 6" ones if I want something that will be indestructible?

As mentioned by a GJ user above, these are NOT the same pliers as the other knipex I posted. Notice the cross hatch pattern on these? Love it! I wonder why most of the other knipex needlenose have the crappy straight pattern? Is that better for fine stuff? I can imagine it is in any way. Now I'm bummed I wasted money on like 6 pairs of the "standard" knipex needlenose!

This pic is the original knipex needlenose next to the 38 11 200 knipex I just bought. Notice the difference in gripping area.

Klein vs Knipex opening width.

 

[PugetDude]

This is where this thread should have stopped. All these experts on this forum and only a few people will read a tool's description. Somehow they think Knipex makes soo many variations for the hell of it, read the damn catalog...it's posted on several sites.

Don't know about you, but I don't have time to stop and consult a catalog or visit a website every time I grab a pair of needle-nose pliers to pull a cotter pin, bend a tab, or snip a wire. Sorry, but I don't want to have to own their complete product line to complete everyday mechanical tasks. (and before you get even more pissy, I understand the differences between various types of pliers, own quite a few styles and brands, and use them regularly.)

All in all, I've been underwhelmed by Knipex. their Alligator jaw pliers and diagonal pliers are OK, (not great), but their needlenose ****, IMO.
YMMV

OP, I hope you're happy with your purchase.

 

[Spacey_G]

So OP, now that you've tried the 26 and 38 series needle nose, would you say there's a difference in the way they're heat treated, or do they both seem to have the spring temper that's advertised on the 26 series?

BMack37 keeps driving the point home that we just need to read the catalogue to see there's a difference in heat treating, but I'm not convinced that tells us anything useful. What's your first-hand experience?

 

[M6erfan]

So OP, now that you've tried the 26 and 38 series needle nose, would you say there's a difference in the way they're heat treated, or do they both seem to have the spring temper that's advertised on the 26 series?

BMack37 keeps driving the point home that we just need to read the catalogue to see there's a difference in heat treating, but I'm not convinced that tells us anything useful. What's your first-hand experience?

So wait...you want a determination about the heat treat by simply using the pliers? By looking at them? How would one test 'spring temper', with any accuracy? Just curious...

 

[Spacey_G]

So wait...you want a determination about the heat treat by simply using the pliers? By looking at them? How would one test 'spring temper', with any accuracy? Just curious...

The assertion is that the 26 series have the flexy, bendy jaws that OP originally did not like while the 38 series, being "mechanics pliers" have stiffer, less flexible jaws. Presumably if there really is a difference, OP would be able to tell by using them.

 

[M6erfan]

The assertion is that the 26 series have the flexy, bendy jaws that OP originally did not like while the 38 series, being "mechanics pliers" have stiffer, less flexible jaws. Presumably if there really is a difference, OP would be able to tell by using them.

Which may or may not be attributed to their 'heat treat'. There are many factors that may lead to differences in behavior of the pliers.. Point is, I hate conjecture and guessing, it's ignorant.

 

[BMack37]

So we should be assholes to each other over a plier catalog then? Yeah that seems reasonable. Alright man have a good one.

If you responded with "I have both pliers and I disagree despite the catalog's description" my response would have been different. Do you expect me to be nice to you when you quote me with a snide question that would have been addressed if you read the catalog, which was the whole point of my post? Which you lied about when you claimed you did read the catalog and outright told me that I was wrong about what was in the catalog...and you were wrong. No, I'm not going to be nice to you.

 

[BMack37]

Don't know about you, but I don't have time to stop and consult a catalog or visit a website every time I grab a pair of needle-nose pliers to pull a cotter pin, bend a tab, or snip a wire. Sorry, but I don't want to have to own their complete product line to complete everyday mechanical tasks. (and before you get even more pissy, I understand the differences between various types of pliers, own quite a few styles and brands, and use them regularly.)

All in all, I've been underwhelmed by Knipex. their Alligator jaw pliers and diagonal pliers are OK, (not great), but their needlenose ****, IMO.
YMMV

OP, I hope you're happy with your purchase.

That's a really poor take on what I said. You should make the time to read a product description when you buy, that's being an informed customer. If anyone just buys whatever and hope it works they're being an ignorant consumer, in which case they shouldn't be giving anyone advice on a site people use as a reference.

 

[Itsjustdirt]

Honestly, from my unscientific, side by side "research", I would GUESS they are the exact same material. These pliers are still flexible but may be slightly more rigid d/t the lack of cutters. They certainly still flex WAY more than my channel locks.

Even the knipex description is vague and sounds like an advertising way of twisting the product description to exactly meet the desire of the consumer. Again, I'm not a scientist or metallurgist, just a dude with a bunch of new pliers in front of him.

The one thing I've learned from this thread.... not all needle nose pliers are meant for the same job. I'd say the original knipex i posted about are light to moderate duty pliers. The 38 11 20 are more medium duty and the kleins are HEAVY duty. Pick the right one for the right job, or just buy the heavy duty ones and hope they fit where you need them.


Edit- of interesting note- Both are machined well with tight tolerances but the Kleins actually have a way smoother action out of the box and the machining is more even and precise on the KLEIN. It just seems like more care was given to the Klein which actually surprises me.

 

[M6erfan]

Honestly, from my unscientific, side by side "research", I would GUESS they are the exact same material. These pliers are still flexible but may be slightly more rigid d/t the lack of cutters.

Even the knipex description is vague and sounds like an advertising way of twisting the product description to exactly meet the desire of the consumer.

The one thing I've learned from this thread.... not all needle nose pliers are meant for the same job. I'd say the original knipex i posted about are light to moderate duty pliers. The 38 11 20 are more medium duty and the kleins are HEAVY duty. Pick the right one for the right job, or just buy the heavy duty ones and hope they fit where you need them.

Why 'guess' at all??? Have you emailed Knipex with the simple question? You may get an answer that puts any doubt of differences to bed. Yeah, the simple solution is usually the best...

Or, you'all can continue to guess and post senseless useless info for another 5 pages...

 

[Spacey_G]

Which may or may not be attributed to their 'heat treat'. There are many factors that may lead to differences in behavior of the pliers.. Point is, I hate conjecture and guessing, it's ignorant.

Technically you're correct, but if one pair of pliers has a higher elastic limit and lower stiffness while a similar pair has a higher stiffness and lower elastic limit, that's more likely than not because of differences in the way they're heat treated.

Whether or not differences in mechanical properties are attributed to heat treating is beside the point anyway. OP complained that his 26 series were too flexible. Some people chimed in and said he'd be happier with the 38 series. So I'm asking if he finds the 38 series noticeably stiffer.

 

[M6erfan]

Technically you're correct, but if one pair of pliers has a higher elastic limit and lower stiffness while a similar pair has a higher stiffness and lower elastic limit, that's more likely than not because of differences in the way they're heat treated.

Whether or not differences in mechanical properties are attributed to heat treating is beside the point anyway. OP complained that his 26 series were too flexible. Some people chimed in and said he'd be happier with the 38 series. So I'm asking if he finds the 38 series noticeably stiffer.

Not to belabor the point but you asked specifically..."So OP, now that you've tried the 26 and 38 series needle nose, would you say there's a difference in the way they're heat treated"

Look, whatever, if you are that curious why not just go to the source and find out for sure?
And then post the response back here where it would qualify as one of the few useful posts in this thread.

For mechanics use I find the S-O Talon Grips superior to the Knipex needle nose that I have. However, I would not conclude from that (and post here) anything about their metallurgy or heat treatment. Why? Because I DONT KNOW for sure.

 

[Spacey_G]

Not to belabor the point but you asked specifically..."So OP, now that you've tried the 26 and 38 series needle nose, would you say there's a difference in the way they're heat treated"

Great, you caught me on a technicality. Making steel is complicated and there could be differences elsewhere in the process.

Now that that's out of the way, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute, or do you just want to express your dissatisfaction with the discussion?

 

[M6erfan]

Great, you caught me on a technicality. Making steel is complicated and there could be differences elsewhere in the process.

Now that that's out of the way, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute, or do you just want to express your dissatisfaction with the discussion?

I have nothing to add to the discussion regarding heat treatment or spring temper, that would be silly. Because I don't know the facts...

 

[Spacey_G]

I have nothing to add to the discussion regarding heat treatment or alloys used, that would be silly. Because I don't know the facts...

Anything to add to the broader discussion about needle nose pliers and the strength of their jaws?

 

[M6erfan]

Anything to add to the broader discussion about needle nose pliers and the strength of their jaws?

I put my $.02 in about S-O Talon Grips already...

 

[Spacey_G]

I put my $.02 in about S-O Talon Grips already...

Right, I see that post now. Thanks for the input.

Interesting that in that same post, you make an assumption about the composition of the steel in Knipex pliers, which you're now saying would be silly because you don't have the facts. Or at least you were saying before an edit to replace "alloy" with "spring temper".

 

[PugetDude]

This thread has become more convoluted than Knipex needle nose jaws...

 

[Itsjustdirt]

Why 'guess' at all??? Have you emailed Knipex with the simple question? You may get an answer that puts any doubt of differences to bed. Yeah, the simple solution is usually the best...

Or, you'all can continue to guess and post senseless useless info for another 5 pages...

Not sure how buying multiple pairs of "good" pliers and comparing them side by side is "senseless and useless", but the last 5 posts you have made certainly ARE senseless and useless.

If you are ignorant enough to blindly follow what a manufacturer TELLS YOU, then that's your choice. Personally, I give WAY MORE VALUE to side by side comparisons from people who actually use the tools. Who gives a flying F' if the tool has a DESCRIPTION of the most elaborate, awesome hardening process in the world if it doesn't make the tool better than another sitting next to it? I don't give a damn about the process, I just care about how they work, in my hands.

A wise comparison would be to read the description AND evaluate side by side. Not sure how this became so complicated.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed and offered suggestions on different pliers to try.

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

I'm just avoiding the whole problem by not buying any more Knipex needle nose and just buying Klein or SO. The ones I got apparently are "elastic" rather than "******* useless".

Better brush up on my marketing speak before my next purchase.

 

[M6erfan]

Right, I see that post now. Thanks for the input.

Interesting that in that same post, you make an assumption about the composition of the steel in Knipex pliers, which you're now saying would be silly because you don't have the facts. Or at least you were saying before an edit to replace "alloy" with "spring temper".

Not sure how buying multiple pairs of "good" pliers and comparing them side by side is "senseless and useless", but the last 5 posts you have made certainly ARE senseless and useless.

If you are ignorant enough to blindly follow what a manufacturer TELLS YOU, then that's your choice. Personally, I give WAY MORE VALUE to side by side comparisons from people who actually use the tools. Who gives a flying F' if the tool has a DESCRIPTION of the most elaborate, awesome hardening process in the world if it doesn't make the tool better than another sitting next to it? I don't give a damn about the process, I just care about how they work, in my hands.

A wise comparison would be to read the description AND evaluate side by side. Not sure how this became so complicated.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed and offered suggestions on different pliers to try.

Hey, your the one who asked about a determination of heat treatment and spring temper by comparing them side by side. I maintain that that is a silly (to be nice) question. My post were to that point and that point only.

I edited "alloy" to "spring temper" as it was a typo, I wanted to use your exact words. Nothing nefarious there.

Yes, I "assume" there may be a difference in alloys between the two models of Knipex pliers. Again, I won't determine that as fact by looking at them side by side or using them side by side.

So blindly following specs from a manufacturer is "ignorant" in your mind. Interesting...

"oil hardened" is marketing speak and useless, "hardened to 59 HRC" is a spec.

 

[mr.lemons]

just a dude with a bunch of new pliers in front of him.

That should be enough to make this a good day

 

[kythri]

KFor heavier tasks, snap on needle and duckbill pliers are hard to beat, plus the talon grips provide superior comfort when cranking down on your work.

I'm confused now - I thought the "Talon Grip" feature was the teeth of the pliers, not the handles.

The couple pairs of Talon Grip pliers that I've got have red rubber handles that, while not uncomfortable, aren't anything special.

What am I missing?

 

[Spacey_G]

M6erfan - it's pretty clear now that you're not participating in this discussion in good faith. Good luck with whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Itsjustdirt - How does the 38 series compare with the 26 series in regard to jaw stiffness/flex? Do you have the same complaints with the 38 series that you do with the 26?

 

[redwrench60]

If you responded with "I have both pliers and I disagree despite the catalog's description" my response would have been different. Do you expect me to be nice to you when you quote me with a snide question that would have been addressed if you read the catalog, which was the whole point of my post? Which you lied about when you claimed you did read the catalog and outright told me that I was wrong about what was in the catalog...and you were wrong. No, I'm not going to be nice to you.

Lol that’s fine man. I hope your dog gets better or whatever has you so grumpy gets resolved soon. Rude and pissy over pliers

 

[Jeremy77]

I often wonder if people are as rude in real life as they are on here (and the internet in general). There’s a wealth of knowledge on this site but a lot of petty bitching as well. This thread is a prime example. While I don’t own any Knipex needle nose, I have several pairs of their diagonals and Alligators and really enjoy using them. I do have a pliers wrench that I’ve just never fell in love with even though they get positive reviews mostly. My favorite needle nose are the NWS made Irwin’s. Got the 8” and the bent 6” and can’t say enough good things about them.

 

[M6erfan]

M6erfan - it's pretty clear now that you're not participating in this discussion in good faith. Good luck with whatever point it is you're trying to make.

My point is that there is no way to tell what the heat treatment or spring temper is between two similar looking tools unless you have those specs from the manufacturer. Simple. I'm sorry if you still can't grasp that.

No bad faith intended.

 

[Itsjustdirt]

M6erfan - it's pretty clear now that you're not participating in this discussion in good faith. Good luck with whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Itsjustdirt - How does the 38 series compare with the 26 series in regard to jaw stiffness/flex? Do you have the same complaints with the 38 series that you do with the 26?

I just went back to the shop and played with both for 5 minutes or so. The 26 series (same length) have cutters and the 38 does not, so keep that in mind.

I like the 38 better because of the tip-grip pattern that prevents slipping in all directions, vs the 26 which is just a bunch of horizontal lines.

The 38 does flex a little less, but that could very well be because of the lack of cutter and different grip. They are CERTAINLY still bendy, flexy, mushy compared to channel-locks and kleins. If the 26 flexes 8/10 then the 38 flexes 6-7/10 and the channel locks are 2/10 with kleins being 0/10. Again, this isn't science, just my opinion.


Certainly don't use EITHER knipex for heavy duty needs.

 

[redwrench60]

I often wonder if people are as rude in real life as they are on here (and the internet in general). There’s a wealth of knowledge on this site but a lot of petty bitching as well. This thread is a prime example. While I don’t own any Knipex needle nose, I have several pairs of their diagonals and Alligators and really enjoy using them. I do have a pliers wrench that I’ve just never fell in love with even though they get positive reviews mostly. My favorite needle nose are the NWS made Irwin’s. Got the 8” and the bent 6” and can’t say enough good things about them.

I agree. I just don’t get it. I came to jaw about tools but some people just can’t help but be pricks. I figured since I own and use both types of Knipex needle nose among many others I could offer my personal experience but evidently since I didn’t do a full dissertation and lab report on the Knipex catalog then well fu*k me.

 

[redwrench60]

I just went back to the shop and played with both for 5 minutes or so. The 26 series (same length) have cutters and the 38 does not, so keep that in mind.

I like the 38 better because of the tip-grip pattern that prevents slipping in all directions, vs the 26 which is just a bunch of horizontal lines.

The 38 does flex a little less, but that could very well be because of the lack of cutter and different grip. They are CERTAINLY still bendy, flexy, mushy compared to channel-locks and kleins. If the 26 flexes 8/10 then the 38 flexes 6-7/10 and the channel locks are 2/10 with kleins being 0/10. Again, this isn't science, just my opinion.


Certainly don't use EITHER knipex for heavy duty needs.

This is basically my experience with them as well. I can’t really tell any difference in them in actual use. They’re great for fine work but not for gorilla work. And I didn’t get that out of the catalog!

 

[BMack37]

Lol that’s fine man. I hope your dog gets better or whatever has you so grumpy gets resolved soon. Rude and pissy over pliers

The only thing that's getting me grumpy is ignorant people with low reading comprehension skills that keep quoting me...

 

[M6erfan]

I just went back to the shop and played with both for 5 minutes or so. The 26 series (same length) have cutters and the 38 does not, so keep that in mind.

I like the 38 better because of the tip-grip pattern that prevents slipping in all directions, vs the 26 which is just a bunch of horizontal lines.

The 38 does flex a little less, but that could very well be because of the lack of cutter and different grip. They are CERTAINLY still bendy, flexy, mushy compared to channel-locks and kleins. If the 26 flexes 8/10 then the 38 flexes 6-7/10 and the channel locks are 2/10 with kleins being 0/10. Again, this isn't science, just my opinion.


Certainly don't use EITHER knipex for heavy duty needs.

Interesting. Thanks.

FWIW, I have a pair of Channellock 3017s and S-O ACF96s and in usage the CLs are a bit more "springy/Flexy" than the S-Os. The Cls aren't POS by any means but the S-Os are definitely more stout and HD (IME) than the 3017s. Also, I find the grips more comfortable and secure (less slippy) on the S-Os and the tips on the ACFs are smaller and more precise.

Not promoting S-O, but thought some might be interested in the comparison (my thoughts anyway).

 

[PugetDude]

The only thing that's getting me grumpy is ignorant people with low reading comprehension skills that keep quoting me...

Sometimes it's better to have some of the questions than all of the answers.

 

[M6erfan]

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[PugetDude]

I gave my one of my two pairs of Knipex needlenose pliers to my brother yesterday, so I'm down to half a dog (literally) in this fight.

 

[HolyGrail]

The only thing that's getting me grumpy is ignorant people with low reading comprehension skills that keep quoting me...

Would be nice if who has a bigger **** would stop, and we could go back to constructive discord over pliers.

 

[Spacey_G]

I just went back to the shop and played with both for 5 minutes or so. The 26 series (same length) have cutters and the 38 does not, so keep that in mind.

I like the 38 better because of the tip-grip pattern that prevents slipping in all directions, vs the 26 which is just a bunch of horizontal lines.

The 38 does flex a little less, but that could very well be because of the lack of cutter and different grip. They are CERTAINLY still bendy, flexy, mushy compared to channel-locks and kleins. If the 26 flexes 8/10 then the 38 flexes 6-7/10 and the channel locks are 2/10 with kleins being 0/10. Again, this isn't science, just my opinion.


Certainly don't use EITHER knipex for heavy duty needs.

That's similar to my experience with the 38 200 pliers. I don't have a 26 200 to compare, but the 38s are definitely not the heavier-duty sort of needle nose pliers some comments in this thread would have one believe. If I really twist or bend with them, the jaws flex and spring back like others have described with the 26.

Frankly, I think this comment from page 1 was misleading:

Knipex makes mechanics needlenose. Check out 38 11 200 for example. I own those and they are not for delicate tasks.

People complaining about the Knipex needlenose are using the wrong ones for the task.

 

[WhiskeyRanger]

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I wonder how much experience that reviewer has in the trade and what he specializes in. It doesn't look like he used either tool very extensively. I'll gladly take a tool that "transmits flex to the joint" or whatever over one that flexes so much that I can't get the job done. Tools that don;t work tend to last forever in my experience since I never use them.

FWIW, this thread attracted my attention specifically because I was looking to upgrade from the CL needle nose I've been using after chucking my Knipex back in the drawer after they were incapable of performing the tasks asked of them.