Compromised GFCI Outlet Again and Again

[onewheat]

I have a 20A circuit that has only one outlet on it for my dock power. It is located on a pole above the usual high-water level of the lake. This outlet has a 20A GFCI outlet that has been working well for about 6 years - the GFCI outlet has been replaced a couple times over the years after heavy thunderstorms with nearby lightning strikes. Recently, within the last couple months, I have had to replace the outlet 3 or 4 times - I find that I have no power in the outlet and the GFCI red light is flashing. It will not reset and is just dead. It is just the hot, neutral and ground wire hooked up to the LINE side of the outlet with 12 ga wire. I have a 20A extension cord plugged into the outlet that powers the dock (boat lift and 1/3 hp submersible pump). The box the female end of the extension cord plugs into on the dock leads to the line side of another GFCI and the lift and pump feed off the load side of it. This GFCI tests fine with the TEST button and has never tripped on its own in 6 years.

What could be causing my first GFCI to continually go out? The breaker that feeds it, is a double breaker and is not a GFCI breaker. I admit, I don't know all the ins and outs of GFCIs and electrical things - but I don't know what to do on this one. I'm tired of buying $20 GFCI outlets that last two weeks. Any help?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My first question is why do you have one GFCI feeding another?

 

[Git]

wylie is the expert, but it sounds like you have a multiwire circuit? It's a little confusing because you mention you only have one outlet then later you said that you're having problems with the first GFCI...

From what I understand, the shared neutral wire has to be connected to the LINE of both GFCI's. Don't connect the neutral from the second GFCI to the load of the first

see if this helps (and your better off waiting for Wylie)

 

[AntonLargiader]

You don't want sketchy stuff around docks. What's on the other leg of the double breaker? And is this box on the dock a manufactured item (made to be used like this with an extension cord) or something that you made?

If I had electricity going to a dock, I would make triple sure that I was following the latest code and that all of my Is were dotted and my Ts were crossed. ESD (electric shock drowning) is a real thing.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Connecting the second GFCI to the line terminals of the first would be bad. Fine for a kitchen, bad for a dock because you'd have GFCI-unprotected wiring on the dock itself. If the end of the extension cord fell in the water you'd have the beginnings of an ESD scenario.

These days the breaker itself needs to be GFCI and I see no reason to try to avoid doing that.

 

[Git]

Connecting the second GFCI to the line terminals of the first would be bad.

Care to explain because I must be missing something?

I was always under the impression that a GFCI works by comparing the current between the hot (black) and the neutral (white) wires. The current should be about the same but if the difference gets over 5 mA, the GFCI is tripped and cuts power to the circuit

If you look at the diagram I posted, the neutral (white) wire is pigtailed into the LINE of the first GFCI (not connected to it) and continues to the second GFCI. It's as if the second GFCI is connected directly to the breaker and really has nothing to do with the first GFCI other than the circuit uses a shared neutral.

I am not sure where you're getting the "you'd have GFCI-unprotected wiring on the dock"?

 

[AntonLargiader]

It's as if the second GFCI is connected directly to the breaker and really has nothing to do with the first GFCI other than the circuit uses a shared neutral.

Exactly. And since it's a non-GFCI breaker, the extension cord (which goes onto the dock) has no GFCI protection. That is what is bad about that configuration. You have to read the OP's exact description of what he has to see the problem.

EDIT: to clarify, it's not a GFCI recep wiring issue. It's a dock protection issue. Docks have specific requirements.

 

[sberry]

Look for a chafe in the neutral wire, where it is shorting to ground.

 

[wssix99]

What could be causing my first GFCI to continually go out?

This is what happens when they get wet. You are probably getting some water intrusion after these storms.

I've had this issue over and over with various outlets over the years in masonry walls. I now use regular outlets outside and protect them by GFCI's upstream, located in dry places..

 

[ard]

Is the GFCI being fed by a conduit?

Water in the conduit will eventually condense inside the GFCI.... Leave the box open for a bit...seal the conduit with silicone. Ventilate the box... Just some ideas...

 

[Stuart in MN]

If it worked well for six years, but then things started acting up just recently, that tells me it's not the GFCIs that are at fault - something else is going on. As suggested, look for chafed wires or poor connections somewhere. Is the wire in a conduit?

 

[tyme2par4]

If at all possible, I would change the breaker to a GFCI and get rid of the GFCI outet. The outlet is likely failing because of moisture intrusion.
Changing to a GFCI would also provide protection for the wiring. In a dock situation, you REALLY want to make sure you have proper protection.
Look up Electro-Shock Drowning if you want to know why GFCI is required for docks.

 

[onewheat]

I'll try and answer these the best I can...

To clarify one thing - I originally said "double breaker" - I believe the correct term is "tandem breaker" - which is why I have not just traded the breaker for a GFCI one - no room for additional breakers and no tandem GFCI breakers that I have seen.

My first question is why do you have one GFCI feeding another?

Think of this like a power pole at an RV park - the receptacle next to the RV has a GFCI outlet that is fed by a single breaker (one side of the tandem) that is not GFCI - so the outlet is GFCI protected. You plug an extension cord into that receptacle and the female end goes into a male receptacle built into the side of your RV. That line in your RV feeds the line side of a GFCI outlet in the kitchen of the RV - which would protect that outlet and the other downstream plugs in the RV on the load side of it if the power pole on the outside was not protected, or if that GFCI was bad but still powered.

wylie is the expert, but it sounds like you have a multiwire circuit? It's a little confusing because you mention you only have one outlet then later you said that you're having problems with the first GFCI...

Does the above description clarify how I am wired?

What's on the other leg of the double breaker? And is this box on the dock a manufactured item (made to be used like this with an extension cord) or something that you made?

So - this is where I misspoke, there aren't 'legs' on a tandem breaker, correct? Would each side of a tandem be considered a "leg" or just a side? I don't know off the top of my head what the other side of the tandem breaker is feeding but it is unrelated to this plug. This is the only outlet on this one side of the tandem breaker. The box on the dock is a manufactured male receptacle in an outdoor weatherproof box, like one in the side of an RV.

Connecting the second GFCI to the line terminals of the first would be bad. Fine for a kitchen, bad for a dock because you'd have GFCI-unprotected wiring on the dock itself. If the end of the extension cord fell in the water you'd have the beginnings of an ESD scenario.

These days the breaker itself needs to be GFCI and I see no reason to try to avoid doing that.

The outlet the extension cord is plugged into IS GFCI protected and that is the one I am currently having problems with. It should protect the cord should the female end ever be dropped in the water. It is not GFCI circuit breaker protected, however, because of the aforementioned tandem breaker, that I believe is not available as a GFCI tandem breaker.

Exactly. And since it's a non-GFCI breaker, the extension cord (which goes onto the dock) has no GFCI protection. That is what is bad about that configuration. You have to read the OP's exact description of what he has to see the problem.

EDIT: to clarify, it's not a GFCI recep wiring issue. It's a dock protection issue. Docks have specific requirements.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? The extension cord should have GFCI protection from the outlet, but you are correct, not the breaker. It is this outlet that keeps going bad all of the sudden.

Is the wire in a conduit?

I do not think the wire leading to the outlet box on the pole is in conduit - other than from a foot or so underground up to the box. I'm pretty sure it is direct-burial wire run to flexible conduit just under the ground and up to the outlet box.


If I am not clear about any of this, I can try and clarify.

 

[AntonLargiader]

My comments about the unprotected cord were not directed at you; they were in response to a different suggestion.

It sounds like you're trying to do the right thing but the reliability of that GFCI recep is stopping you. I would move wires around in your panel so that the circuit is on its own breaker and put a GFCI breaker there.

I ran across this in regard to moisture damage to GFCI receps:
https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2010/01/16/the-illusion-of-gfci-protection/

It may be slightly outdated (since you are buying 2017 or 2018 manufactured devices) but I think it's still relevant.

 

[75gmck25]

If its too hard to install a GFCI breaker, another option would be to put the GFCI in a weather-sealed box where it is not opened for normal use, or in a box that is more protected. This box could even be put in the wiring right after it exits the panel. There is no need for the GFCI to be near the actual power point.

Then install the receptacle as load off the GFCI, in a receptacle box that is used for your shore power. That should limit the amount of moisture the GFCI is exposed to, since the GFCI box would not be opened during typical use.

Bruce

 

[tyme2par4]

If its too hard to install a GFCI breaker, another option would be to put the GFCI in a weather-sealed box where it is not opened for normal use, or in a box that is more protected. This box could even be put in the wiring right after it exits the panel. There is no need for the GFCI to be near the actual power point.

Then install the receptacle as load off the GFCI, in a receptacle box that is used for your shore power. That should limit the amount of moisture the GFCI is exposed to, since the GFCI box would not be opened during typical use.

Bruce

This is a great suggestion. If you don't have room for a full size breaker I would go this route.

 

[checkthisout]

Are you using the Leviton GFCI outlets from Home Depot?

If so, they just fail for no reason all the time, especially if an appliance is plugged into them like a freezer, battery charger etc.

They last just fine so long as nothing is plugged into them or operating off them downstream.

 

[tapered-pin]

do you not have the option to remove the tandem breaker and replace it with two 1/2" breakers (one or both being GFCI)..

 

[AntonLargiader]

Tandem is the two thin breakers in one single-width housing. You're thinking double (I've made that mistake, too).

 

[tapered-pin]

isn't the tandem breaker a 1" breaker?

can't he replace it with a 1/2" GFCI breaker and another 1/2" breaker?

(assuming his panel will accept the 1/2" breakers)..



and.. in "this day and age".. I'm shocked at how few people post a picture of what they're asking about..

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe i missed it but OP hasnt told us what brand and model of panel he has...

 

[captaindiode]

The only thing I can add IF the wiring is correct, be sure you have an GFCI outlet rated for an exterior location. They have a WR stamped on the front.

From Eaton's website:

Specification Grade - Weather Resistant Duplex GFCIs are built to meet every need in commercial, industrial and institutional settings, whether permanent or temporary – and is fully compliant with the latest UL943 standards for GFCIs, providing the most recent change to the standard by offering self testing capability. Complies with 2017 NEC Article 406.9 that states that all receptacles installed in wet or damp locations must be weather resistant. Weather resistant receptacles offer protection from rain, snow, ice, moisture, and humidity when properly installed in an approved weather protective or while-inuse cover. Weather resistant receptacles are for use in any residential or commercial outdoor location. Designed with enhanced nylon and corrosion resistant metal components Weather resistant receptacles are extra durable. Combine WR receptacles with any of our WeatherBox While-in-Use Protective Covers for tough protection against the elements.

 

[onewheat]

It sounds like you're trying to do the right thing but the reliability of that GFCI recep is stopping you. I would move wires around in your panel so that the circuit is on its own breaker and put a GFCI breaker there.
.

This was going to be my next investigation - When the house was built 6 years ago, I feel like they somehow cheaped out on the box size, which is why I have so many tandem breakers.

isn't the tandem breaker a 1" breaker?

can't he replace it with a 1/2" GFCI breaker and another 1/2" breaker?

(assuming his panel will accept the 1/2" breakers)..

and.. in "this day and age".. I'm shocked at how few people post a picture of what they're asking about..

That is what I misspoke about in my original post - I believe that is a "Double Breaker". A "Tandem Breaker" is two breakers housed in one 1/2" housing - which is why GFCI Tandems are not available. I think they are just too small.

The house is 3.5 hours from here or I'd have pictures of everything posted. I agree it makes explanations SO much more clear with a visual.

Maybe i missed it but OP hasnt told us what brand and model of panel he has...

I do not know off the top of my head, or I would have added that info as well.

The only thing I can add IF the wiring is correct, be sure you have an GFCI outlet rated for an exterior location. They have a WR stamped on the front.

The GFCIs are NOT labeled WR. I will have to look for them when I go back for spares this time. I don't recall seeing them on the shelf in a 20A. I may have to order them.

 

[onewheat]

It looks like my first one that went bad over the winter was a Cooper. The next 3 were Hubbell. From the end of Sept/Oct, there is nothing plugged into this outlet at all until April/May but it is still energized. The power pole outlet has a cover like this on it, with a gasket but is not siliconed. Again - it has been great for 6 Years just like this but this spring my GFCIs have not been happy.




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[mm08822]

Has anything else failed around the same time as the gfci recpt failures?

I would check elsewhere……Verify the grounding electrode conductor at the main panel is adequately connected to the grounding electrodes. That conductor or the connection points could have failed/been damaged. Lightning strikes near the house/onto the utility lines would be seeking all paths to ground and the ckt next to the lake could be a great path especially if no other low resistance grounding electrode means exists. Doesn’t take much to smoke the electronics and leave the exterior of the recept pristine. Verify the neutral and grd are bonded in the main panel.

If in question, drive a couple of 8’ grd rods 6+’ apart and connect at the main panel.

 

[onewheat]

Has anything else failed around the same time as the gfci recpt failures?

Nothing that I know of. I'll check the other things you mentioned next time I go down.

 

[tapered-pin]

That is what I misspoke about in my original post - I believe that is a "Double Breaker". A "Tandem Breaker" is two breakers housed in one 1/2" housing - which is why GFCI Tandems are not available. I think they are just too small.

1/2" breakers are available in both AFCI and GFCI from a number of manufacturers (but not all - i dont think GE makes one).

but they ARE available and it IS possible.


THIS is a tandem breaker. it's 1" and contains two breakers within the same housing.

again, if you want a solution to your problem, try posting a picture of your panel, the outlet, and help us help you...

 

[AntonLargiader]

Talking about 1/2" is just confusing the issue because there's the implication that you can fit two of them in a 1" slot. There is no 1/2". QO is 3/4" and pretty much everything else is 1", but this issue comes down to single or tandem (two breakers in a single-wide housing) breakers. Single breakers are available in GFCI. I have not seen a tandem breaker that is GFCI. The OP's best bet is to move the dock circuit to a single breaker and make it a GFCI breaker.

 

[tapered-pin]

moot point since we dont know anything about the OPs panel..

 

[mm08822]

moot point since we dont know anything about the OPs panel..

ummmm.....who chose the mfr?

Since we don’t even know the op’s panel mfr, this information confusing at best.

Your example of a QO AFCI breaker pictured (3/4” wide) does not make any sense when you compare it to a Homeline CB (1” wide). QO and HO series are not interchangeable.

I too, do not know of any mfr making a ½ space gfci or afci.

So for which mfr and product series do you know of a ½ space gfci or tandem style gfci?

 

[tapered-pin]

I was mistaken, I apologize for conflating the issue.

 

[onewheat]

I'll post some pictures - but I won't be down there until next weekend. I'm leaving on a motorcycle trip this Friday but will be back at the lake for the following weekend. This, however, is what my tandem breakers look like -

similar to two families in a single wide.

 

[onewheat]

Ok - this is what I’ve got... I don’t know what mfg the panel is but it looks like a Square D box and breakers. The one for my dock is the bottom left breaker.

I just replaced the GFCI at the power pole before I left two weeks ago and it’s dead again. That make 5 since the beginning of May.


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[Aceman]

If a customer called me for this I would:

1. Verify bus stab-breaker connection and wire to breaker connections were correct and tight.
2. Verify neutral/ground wire connections were in good shape and tight. Also, verify any connections between the panel and GFCI, j-boxes, etc are correct and in good shape.
3. Verify the outdoor box was properly weatherproofed. If it's a bell box, that means the threaded weatherproof plug at the top of the box was sealed with silicone as per the instructions to keep water from weeping through the threads and dripping onto the gfci. This kills GFCI's.
4. Verify there is a drain hole drilled into the lowest part of the box.
5. Meg the circuit conductors hot-neutral, hot-ground, neutral-ground at 250v and 500v.
6. Measure voltage at the receptacle, hot-neutral and hot-ground.
7. Last but not least, install a proper Leviton 20 amp WR GFCI. This is my preference.

We do a ton of dairy work, and I buy nothing but these GFCI's linked below. If they can hold up in a washdown environment inside of a dairy with poorly trained unskilled labor and high pressure washdown hoses, they can handle a dock.

If lightning strikes are common in your area, you may want to consider a panel mounted surge suppressor.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013OVCP54/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[mm08822]

I'll check the other things you mentioned next time I go down.

So what did you find for these details previously mentioned/details requested?