Kaizen
Well-known member
Anybody see this used in the real world?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Air sprayed caulk?
- Thread starter Kaizen
- Start date
rlitman
Well-known member
So it's tire slime for a house? Interesting.
jbwilkins
Well-known member
It does look like the duct sealing system -- guess its a question of cost and long term experience. I worry about the long term durability of these products -- including the tape on the zip-wall.
I like old houses and I'm a bit of a house nerd .. so I like Matt's video's and his willingness to try new stuff ... but I don't like/agree with all of it.
How do you explain a new zip roof system w/ R 30 and another identical house with R19 of foam. 100 degree day ......You can feel the heat in the the zip/conventional ... and nothing with the foam?
Since this system uses the leaks to fill the gaps -- we have to assume it's fixing all the mistakes? What happens if any of the tape fails or other caulks fail in the future -- leaks occur.
I like old houses and I'm a bit of a house nerd .. so I like Matt's video's and his willingness to try new stuff ... but I don't like/agree with all of it.
How do you explain a new zip roof system w/ R 30 and another identical house with R19 of foam. 100 degree day ......You can feel the heat in the the zip/conventional ... and nothing with the foam?
Since this system uses the leaks to fill the gaps -- we have to assume it's fixing all the mistakes? What happens if any of the tape fails or other caulks fail in the future -- leaks occur.
The key to the ZipR sheathing with the foam attached to it is that it provides a continuous thermal break whereas traditional insulation does not. Joe Lsteibruk (sp?) says it best when he compares wearing a coat to block the cold vs trying to stuff it between your ribs.
You are onto something about failing tapes and caulks. While they are tested in advanced weathering tests, time is ultimately going to be the one to tell.
Yes -- I have seen both types. Zip w/ insulation and w/o. In threory -- I like ........ But -- if the tape fails for any reason ...... screwed.
I have also seen how some do the install -- so I'm not going to use it.
I'm sure there is some thermal bridging through a typical 2x4 or 2x6 -- but it's not much .. even a roof on a hot day.
Fixin'Stuff
Well-known member
R1 = 1 inch of pine. So a 2x4 on edge is R3.5 and a 2x6 is R5.5. Not a huge deal on a typical R-13 wall, but certainly not ideal. Every 8-foot 2x4 has 144 square inches (1 square foot) of thermal bridging. When you get into super-insulating a house (some of those folks shoot for R60+ walls), then the bridging makes a huge difference.
It matters far more in cold climates than in hot climates. Around these parts we're typically trying to drop the temp 20-30 degrees from outdoors at the hottest part of the summer. But when it's -10 outside and you want to heat your house to 72 degrees then you're looking at an 82 degree delta. Every little bit you can do to keep the hot and cold separated makes the house more comfortable and cheaper to heat.
Even if the tape failed way later, you still got the benefit of a mostly air and water barrier built into the sheathing. All you have to do is make sure the tape is rolled with a roller. I'll tell you, its sticky as **** after rolling it.
I used Zip sheathing on my build and feel it was worth it. I did everything I could to keep penetrations down, used a very high quality sill sealer, spray foam, etc.
The tape is the air sealing barrier -- once it's gone .. that's it.
I'm sticking with foam.
My reality --- I can't feel any difference when I place my hand over the stud on the other side of 5/8 rock.
I understand it must be there -- the foam is insulating the 2x6 on the sides -- so I must be driving the heat out to the cold wall in the winter. But, the reverse is also true in the summer sun -- I don;t feel it.
I'm assuming it's because overall the inside room temp is able to overcome the loss.
This is why i like foam -- it's really fool proof with a good foam guy. I get that it's not a net zero dwelling -- but you building easy/ conventional and getting a very high percentage of the saving of doing a much more complete house with thick walls. It's amazing what 3" of foam does on the walls of a 200 year old stone farmhouse -- I have it under my slate roof and I feel nothing with the roof about 8" away.
Fixin'Stuff
Well-known member
Your feel of air leakage or temperature difference is contradicted by science. There is a lot to building science and I really enjoy it. While foam is a good way to go, it is expensive and you can get a bad job where it is not mixed properly or doesnt stick. My house and my shop are both spray foamed, but if I were to start over, I'd air seal better and use rockwool insulation.
How are you air sealing better vs going with foam .. that's the point of foam .. did you use open. Not clear?
And unless you use rigid foam on the outside -- the bridging is still there. I don't see how betting on some sticky tape is wise.
I really don't find foam to be expensive --
Foam is only an air seal when its thick enough. I believe open cell needs to be 3.5" or so and closed cell needs 2" to be a vapor tight seal. The idea of preventing air from getting past your sheathing is better than letting it past then trying to seal it out. There will be thermal bridging (I could not find a decent price on ZipR sheathing in my area).
Foam may not be expensive in your mind but its over double what it would cost for a batt style insulation.
While I know you dont trust caulk/tape...Zip sheathing is impressive. The blower doors scores are great compared to a normal osb/tyvek. Why do you trust foam but not tape? Foam can break down too
Foam may not be expensive in your mind but its over double what it would cost for a batt style insulation.
While I know you dont trust caulk/tape...Zip sheathing is impressive. The blower doors scores are great compared to a normal osb/tyvek. Why do you trust foam but not tape? Foam can break down too
It all comes down to real world wall assemblies. Typical construction leaks -- these tests are done in a static environment. Not even taking the stack effect into consideration.
I get that adding foam to the outside of a building fixes the bridging through the wood -- but at what cost and at what other problems? exterior foam is a real pain to work around. The ZIP with insulation takes away some of the issues -- but you still must use 2x6 around me and now you have a wider wall. And it needs the tape to stay attached for its entire life to maintain the energy rating.
I was thinking of doing a ZIP roof when I rip off my old one next year in my studio -- I'm still going to foam. My concern would be the now encapsulated OSB .. that I hate BTW.
All the foamed buildings I have done have preformed very well -- I'm talking closed. I'm typically doing old stone structures with new addition .. so foam is ideal and I do the additions with full foam as well.
It's real world vs laboratory --- I remember going to a trade show and seeing a guy with various window and wall assemblies and heat lamps. You could feel the heat through different walls just like you could through different windows -- with the same theoretical "R" value.
A great example is going to a contraction site where they do both spray foam and batts .. all with typical construction -- walk into the foamed house and the non.
I never use "open" .. always closed. I did one flash and batt addition about 10 years ago -- using 2.5 of closed. I'm sitting in that addition now ... it was part of a large remodel of a building with many additions over many years before me. It was sort of a test. My typical is 4+ inches of foam.
I actually find having typical plywood as sheathing and using the foam as the sealing barrier to be preferred. I agree that when new the ZIP works -- I'm just not sure I like having to bet the tape is going to hold up. My other concern is having two vapor barriers. The ZIP is creating one on the outside and you have one on the inside .. I don't think this is a good idea.
While Foam is more expensive vs just using typical Batts -- The performance and ability to use smaller HVAC equipment quickly make it the preferred way in my mind. ZIP is adding to the cost over typical batts . and it requires very careful construction. ZIP w/ insulation is again addicting over regular ZIP.
Foam has been around for a long time -- I'm rebuilding a structure now that was foamed in 1993. Maybe we will find that ZIP holds up? Hope it does
I rented a thermal camera for my own house, it looks nothing like that
I have a very traditional construction with r13 faced bats between studs and house wrap and vinyl siding
The only hot spots around my house were from windows/doors, and the space between the 1st and second floor. Could not see the studs from outside.
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I saw a video on that stuff as well, the spray caulk. Looks like a pretty nice product.
The only problem with it is that a little leakage isn’t really that big of deal. Odors stick around a lot longer and the air gets stale. So if you need to vent your air to prevent that, with a whole house fan or whatnot, then you might as well spend a whole lot less and let the air naturally circulate through the gaps.
The only problem with it is that a little leakage isn’t really that big of deal. Odors stick around a lot longer and the air gets stale. So if you need to vent your air to prevent that, with a whole house fan or whatnot, then you might as well spend a whole lot less and let the air naturally circulate through the gaps.
It's hard to get accurate information ... it's always a group that has some skin in the game.
Fire: There are many discussions about fire risk and foam ... mostly flash over. There is a study using a windowless foamed building -- they start a fire inside using flammables (in the center) and eventually at a very high temp the building goes to flash over. The heat would have killed you way before ........and who lives in a open foamed building ? My foamed house caught on fire and the foam stopped the flames and especially the smoke -- the fire did not get hot enough. It ate through studs and the wood (cedar) roof -- and hardly damaged the foam. IMO -- I would rather have foam. If I built another conventional home ..I would foam the bedroom walls.
The "R" value of various wall assemblies is also confusing. My old brick house can stay cool in the summer for a couple of days -- if you live in a climate with fluctuations -- great. If it's hot for three days ... forget it -- the house get hot and stays hot. I get that it's wall mass -- but it's still the same 'R". That's how I think the studs react -- in an extremely cold climate where it's 5 degrees for a month the studs come into play more so in a more temperate climate. I have had weeks of very cold (near zero) .. and I really can't feel cold on the inside wall of a 2x6 .. but it must be taking heat out of the building.
Getting accurate information on the environmental aspects of all of this also impossible. I have never had any feeling of off gas with foam -- but, I stay out of the building for a few days. Nothing like the smell of OSB and particle board -- both I try and avoid (hard).
GBA has a double wall with rock wool -- that seems to be the new thing they like ... try getting someone to do it correctly and get all the window and doors correct. What's the cost and the wood ? what's the long term savings possibility?
6768rogues
Banned
So the builder sprays all this snake oil in the house so it is super sealed up and passes a blower door test at completion, but uses cheap windows and doors. When the house is a few years old, you have to hold on to your hat when you walk by their cheap windows and doors. If your chair is next to a window, the wind might blow you out of your chair. I have replaced hundreds of windows that were not 5 years old in houses that were otherwise fairly well built, because the builder used some that did not hold up. I would rather have a builder do a good job sealing up the house without this stuff, and spend the "thousands" they mentioned on better windows and doors, something that will last for at least 20 or more years.
I think you are missing the correct demographic on houses that will use this service. No production builder is going to do this. Most semi custom or even custom home builders will do this. This product is geared towards people with high end builds wanting to be energy efficient. People willing to pay thousands on air sprayed caulk probably wont cheap out on windows.
I have followed Matt Risinger for years now and his builds are 2-3x the average building price we see here in Texas. He will tell you hes not cheap and only does architect driven builds which is not the norm in Texas.
James-W
Well-known member
This may be a wonderful product, or is could be a complete failure, only time will tell. As for myself, I would rather stick with products that have a proven track record. These days a home is far too expensive to mess around with "possibly" a good product.
Fixin'Stuff
Well-known member
What was the inside vs. outside temperature delta on the day that you viewed your house? If it's 75 inside and out, things will look great. If it's 75 inside the house and 5 degrees outside, you'll see a much different picture.
What was the inside vs. outside temperature delta on the day that you viewed your house? If it's 75 inside and out, things will look great. If it's 75 inside the house and 5 degrees outside, you'll see a much different picture.
I specifically rented on the a very cold day for maximum differential. I believe it was in the low 20's.
You might have been able to have a general idea of the stud location, but it looked nothing like the photo posted in here.
That photo may have been taken somewhere where it was like -30 degrees outside. I find it odd every sq inch of that house is giving off that strong of a heat signature. My house was not lit up like that at all.
I mean just imagine touching a brick or vinyl siding of an insulated house in the winter, what is it like 1 degree different than the outside temp, if even that much?
Maybe he can provide the link .. it could be sensitivity or an enhanced picture.
Leaking is a huge problem -- I recently removed a ceiling from an conventional insulated shed roof addition 18x40 so I could foam the roof deck -- and side walls above the top plate. It's like being in another room ... fiberglass leaks like crazy. And plastic VB are problematic
6768rogues
Banned
I have seen many expensive custom built houses that have terrible windows. The builder convinces the buyer that they are good, and the window specs are good when testing a brand new unit. However, when they are a few years old they start to fall apart. You are right that there are a few buyers for whom cost is not a issue, who want everything regardless of the cost, and who are willing to pay through the nose for every new method available. That cannot be the target audience for that product, or the manufacturer will not succeed. For the vast majority of buyers, cost is a concern and getting that new stuff at the cost of not getting something else might not be the best option.
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