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Knipex needlenose- twisty, mushy, bendy

Steve_P

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Seven pages before someone pointed this out! Of course the 38 series will flex as much as the 26 series...the jaws are the same size.

If the Knipex jaws have a very high yield strength, that would allow them to grip with a lot of force without permanently bending despite their thin profile and lots of flex under load. Maybe not as much force as the significantly geometrically stiffer alternatives, but more than you might think for such thin jaws. I guess that's the idea behind the "elastic, distortion-tolerant" jaws.

Another fact to ignore is, all else the same, if brand A has jaws that are 10% taller than B it'll be 33% stronger in bending. So it's shocking skinny Knipex isn't very strong...

I don't have any Knipex needlenose but they can certainly make something as strong as SO. But the Germans apparently view needlenose for delicate work only. I have NWS and the jaws are very slender; they call them radio pliers. So thats their intended usage - electronics, light work
 
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M6erfan

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Here's the response I received from Knipex when I inquired about the differences between the 26 and 38 series pliers:

"They are essential the same except for the two items he pointed out which are the cutting blade and serrated jaws. Other than that, they are identical."

Doh! At least you got your answer.
 

BMack37

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Lol You mean all that catalog thumping BMack did was for nothing!? :lol_hitti

A response from a customer service rep? Yeah sure, CS reps know all the answers and didn't just glance over the catalog, I'm sure she called the plant manager who contacted the engineer in charge of design and got the correct answer. You're not going to get the answer other than whats in the catalog from any large company. Go ahead and ask Carol at Dewalt to tell you what the difference between their drill chuck and the Porter Cable drill chuck, she better know her manufacturing.

Look in hopes that you'll stop bothering me, I'll answer the question you should have asked instead of continuing the argument you keep pushing for...

The 38 series is more sturdy but are there other manufacturers that design their needle noses differently? Yes, some companies don't have the need or desire for 100s of plier skus that are perfected for specific tasks. Some, like Klein makes tools specific for ONE trade and use people in that trade to help design their tools. Knipex makes several pliers, some of which are better suited for certain tasks. If I need to reach something recessed and need to twist, instead of incorrectly using needle nose pliers (from any manufacturer), I use assembly pliers like 28-21-200 or if I can fit them 28-21-200. If I need to grab something and pull straight or hold something without twisting, that's where needle nose come in. I was always taught that needle nose pliers were for tight, precise work and not twisting. So the idea of using a 38 series to the point of twisting is as incomprehensible as using slip-joint pliers instead of a socket. You guys can use whatever you want and I don't really care. The 38 series needle nose has less flex than the 28 series needle nose, but every tool has a point in which it's use is more than it was designed to handle...common sense should tell you holding onto a nut with a 8" needle nose while you crank on the other side with a ratchet isn't the intended use of the tool but luckily some companies know their customer base.
 
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redwrench60

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A response from a customer service rep? Yeah sure, CS reps know all the answers and didn't just glance over the catalog, I'm sure she called the plant manager who contacted the engineer in charge of design and got the correct answer. You're not going to get the answer other than whats in the catalog from any large company. Go ahead and ask Carol at Dewalt to tell you what the difference between their drill chuck and the Porter Cable drill chuck, she better know her manufacturing.

Look in hopes that you'll stop bothering me, I'll answer the question you should have asked instead of continuing the argument you keep pushing for...

The 38 series is more sturdy but are there other manufacturers that design their needle noses differently? Yes, some companies don't have the need or desire for 100s of plier skus that are perfected for specific tasks. Some, like Klein makes tools specific for ONE trade and use people in that trade to help design their tools. Knipex makes several pliers, some of which are better suited for certain tasks. If I need to reach something recessed and need to twist, instead of incorrectly using needle nose pliers (from any manufacturer), I use assembly pliers like 28-21-200 or if I can fit them 28-21-200. If I need to grab something and pull straight or hold something without twisting, that's where needle nose come in. I was always taught that needle nose pliers were for tight, precise work and not twisting. So the idea of using a 38 series to the point of twisting is as incomprehensible as using slip-joint pliers instead of a socket. You guys can use whatever you want and I don't really care. The 38 series needle nose has less flex than the 28 series needle nose, but every tool has a point in which it's use is more than it was designed to handle...common sense should tell you holding onto a nut with a 8" needle nose while you crank on the other side with a ratchet isn't the intended use of the tool but luckily some companies know their customer base.

Dude....quit taking yourself so seriously. Loosen up a little it’s a thread about pliers. Give the animosity a rest. You’re on a tool discussion forum, if my light hearted words are “bothering” you that bad then ....right over there’s the door.

Here’s a thought, maybe post a pic of YOUR Knipex needle nose that YOU use everyday so you can speak about them from first hand experience instead of pounding your gavel for silence so you can continue reading from the catalog.
 

Spacey_G

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A response from a customer service rep? Yeah sure, CS reps know all the answers and didn't just glance over the catalog, I'm sure she called the plant manager who contacted the engineer in charge of design and got the correct answer. You're not going to get the answer other than whats in the catalog from any large company. Go ahead and ask Carol at Dewalt to tell you what the difference between their drill chuck and the Porter Cable drill chuck, she better know her manufacturing.

The response I received from customer service was a forwarded email from a product manager. It appears as though the CS rep didn't know the answer and asked someone who did.

I'm not sure why you're arguing that you won't get anything other than what's in the catalog from a large company when I did in fact get something different. You've maintained that the catalog says there's a difference between 26 and 38, yet a Knipex product manager himself says there is no difference.
 

JBH

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Meh, the Snap On cost ~150% more

Corrected for you.

But because you have a problem with this particular company,

You're really getting worked up over someone reporting that he tried a pair of pliers and thought they weren't very good, while being impressed at the same time by another American pair of pliers that he ended up buying for himself.

Like I said, I dont buy from amazon.de, I can buy all that **** locally... and even if I did buy online it would be from amazon.com.

That makes no sense to me.

Why would you buy from amazon.com if amazon.de (or amazon.co.uk, or amazon.fr, or amazon.co.jp, etc.) had the same product for a significantly lower shipped price? We live on a globe, not just in a mere country. It's advantageous for us to act like it. I'm not saying search every Amazon site for a $50 item, but it's often the case that a product is cheaper to buy in its domestic market so it's worth checking that site.

I mention Amazon specifically because your same login credentials and stored credit card information works across all of their sites. Prime benefits do not cross national lines.

I can tell you are offended by those of us who live in the USA

Why are you so defensive about a pair of pliers that you imagine you can read another person's state of mind and then make false assumptions about him based on his reporting of his own experience with different pliers? All in one sentence!

But don't tell me I am wrong....

Several of the assumptions you have made above, simply because you disagree with my reporting, are flat out wrong.
 

AA/FC

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Corrected for you.



You're really getting worked up over someone reporting that he tried a pair of pliers and thought they weren't very good, while being impressed at the same time by another American pair of pliers that he ended up buying for himself.



That makes no sense to me.

Why would you buy from amazon.com if amazon.de (or amazon.co.uk, or amazon.fr, or amazon.co.jp, etc.) had the same product for a significantly lower shipped price? We live on a globe, not just in a mere country. It's advantageous for us to act like it. I'm not saying search every Amazon site for a $50 item, but it's often the case that a product is cheaper to buy in its domestic market so it's worth checking that site.

I mention Amazon specifically because your same login credentials and stored credit card information works across all of their sites. Prime benefits do not cross national lines.



Why are you so defensive about a pair of pliers that you imagine you can read another person's state of mind and then make false assumptions about him based on his reporting of his own experience with different pliers? All in one sentence!



Several of the assumptions you have made above, simply because you disagree with my reporting, are flat out wrong.

El oh el. :lol_hitti
 

RustyJeep

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Very glad this is being discussed as I'm in need of some high quality needle nose for professional mechanic work.

If price were NOT a factor, would you guys choose the Knipex mechanics's needle nose or the Snap-On equivalent? Being in tech school I get Snap-On for about 50% off retail so there is only a few dollars' difference between the two.
 

Davefr

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Very glad this is being discussed as I'm in need of some high quality needle nose for professional mechanic work.

If price were NOT a factor, would you guys choose the Knipex mechanics's needle nose or the Snap-On equivalent? Being in tech school I get Snap-On for about 50% off retail so there is only a few dollars' difference between the two.


Did you even read the entire thread?

For mechanic work and the fact that you can get SO for half price, it's a no brainer to get the SO Talon Grips.

If there's any benefit in the Knipex product, it would be for light duty work where you need to get into tight spots and grip in only one direction. (even then I'd choose something better.)
 

redwrench60

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I agree with Dave, the Knipex needle nose alone limit you to light duty delicate work. Half off Snap On? Hard to beat that. I like the Snap On talon grips a lot. Good solid well rounded working pliers that can do most anything. I like them enough that I bought spares of all 3 sizes to put up in case they discontinue or redesign them.
 

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mr.lemons

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I bought a used pair or Snap on 96CF. They look to be an older design than the 96ACF currently available new. Not familiar with how Snap on model numbers work.

Sold my Knipex but can show a comparison to Wiha which have a similar profile.

IMG_3628.jpg


Not much difference from this angle.

IMG_3635.jpg


Snap On have stockier jaws.

IMG_3638.jpg


IMG_3640.jpg


Very unscientific test. Grab the base of an axle stand and gently twist. Wiha First.

IMG_3656.jpg


Snap On. I tried to use the same torque. This is obviously very vague but the results are dramatically different. The Snap on are not made of magic so do flex when twisted with more effort but nothing like the Wiha.

IMG_3655.jpg


Snap On's thicker jaws make them considerably less flexible while not adding a significant disadvantage in precision unless reaching into very tight spaces.

Not a Snap On fan. I wanted the Wiha to be more functional but they just don't seem to be comparable to the Snap On.

Maybe this offering from Knipex would be more suited to bending split (cotter) pins and tougher jobs? 28 21 200 Long Reach Needle Nose Pliers 'Specially suitable for gripping and assembly work with a higher prehensile power.'

28212004k.jpg
 

redwrench60

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^^^^ You’ll find yourself reaching for those first. I was initially put off by the talon grips jaws not being completely parallel when closed but after using them I realized when you actually have hold of something then the jaws are parallel so they grip like hell. Add to that a stout design you have a needle nose that combines the best of both worlds. Good purchase.
 

CR888

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WTH are people twisting with needle nose pliers anyway. Just seems like the wrong tool.
 

mr.lemons

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WTH are people twisting with needle nose pliers anyway. Just seems like the wrong tool.

Split (cotter) pins is an example where people have said they are looking for stronger long nose pliers.
 
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M6erfan

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Maybe this offering from Knipex would be more suited to bending split (cotter) pins and tougher jobs? 28 21 200 Long Reach Needle Nose Pliers 'Specially suitable for gripping and assembly work with a higher prehensile power.'

28212004k.jpg

See post #133
 

Davefr

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Maybe this offering from Knipex would be more suited to bending split (cotter) pins and tougher jobs? 28 21 200 Long Reach Needle Nose Pliers 'Specially suitable for gripping and assembly work with a higher prehensile power.'

28212004k.jpg

^^^I think they'll fail the stubborn cotter pin test.

Removing a cotter pin usually involves simultaneous pulling and twisting. These Knipex pliers are regular chain nose with a straight serration pattern.

The straight serration pattern will provide some grip for pulling but they'll fail for twisting because the jaws won't have any bite.

Diamond or opposing diagonal serration patterns are better for any work involving 2 axis gripping. I can't think of a single advantage to the old straight serration patterns for needle nose pliers. (vs. adjustable pliers like Cobras where single axis grip is all that's needed)

SO, Klein and Channelock have all abandoned the old straight serration jaw design for their full size needle nose pliers.
 
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walrus

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I have several knipex needle nose in my electrical bag. I don't do cotter pins with them, way better than Klein. Nothing compares to snap on needle nose that I have found.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

plinker

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I bought a used pair or Snap on 96CF. They look to be an older design than the 96ACF currently available new. Not familiar with how Snap on model numbers work.


Those are what I'd refer to as 1st gen talon grips, the newest have slightly different forging plus a "S" logo stamped in the sides. Still the same function either way. The only downfall of the Snap-on needle nose is the joint can be really stiff for a while until broke in with use.


As far as twisting is concerned, it does happen. It is best to avoided doing it but it still can happen. Bending the tabs over on cotter pins tends twist some.

FWIW, Matco has a extremely nice durable cotter pin puller that works.
 

Steve_P

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Post 173 shows why SO needlenose are so strong. Look how tall the jaws are!!! Knipex is tiny in comparison. You may as well compare linemans pliers to typical needlenose :) They do this to lower warranty claims.
 

Steve_P

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All.else the same, twice the height is 8X as strong in bending on that axis for a rectangular cross section. Look up moment of inertia for a rectangle; the height variable is cubed
 

Spacey_G

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Lowering warranty claims could be some part of Snap-on's taller design, but it could also be that they've simply found their customers to prefer the taller jaws. All the positive feedback in this thread and others from users would seem to support that.
 

CR888

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Post 173 shows why SO needlenose are so strong. Look how tall the jaws are!!! Knipex is tiny in comparison. You may as well compare linemans pliers to typical needlenose :) They do this to lower warranty claims.
So is designing a tool with minimising warranty claims the best way to make a tool suitable for its purpose? Knipex design engineers would read this thread shaking their heads. Before passing judgement on a design, try to understand WHY something is designed the way it is. I highly doubt many members here know more about pliers than Knipex's inner circle...:headscrat
 

Steve_P

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So is designing a tool with minimising warranty claims the best way to make a tool suitable for its purpose? Knipex design engineers would read this thread shaking their heads. Before passing judgement on a design, try to understand WHY something is designed the way it is. I highly doubt many members here know more about pliers than Knipex's inner circle...:headscrat


I was defending Knipex; anyone can make giant jaw pliers. Thanks for the lessons, you obviously know more about mechanical engineering than I do. Carry on with opinions, I give up with facts
 

CR888

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No I don't no much about engineering but many in this thread seem to want to judge a pair of thin pointy 'needle nose' pliers on how THICK they are and there ability to endure lateral twisting. I'm just pointing out that perhaps the idea behind them is not for these uses and the 'needle nose' is just that and being thin and pointy is how they should be to do their job. If I wanted to twist something with force needle nose pliers would not be my first choice. Knipex have like 1200 products in their catalogue.....maybe that's for good reason. Look at designs that are made for twisting & the first thing you'll notice is they are not thin, long & pointy actually quite the opposite with thick short jaws much closer to the piviting point. Using the right tool for the task is what I'm getting at, sorry if I upset anyone no one deserves that.
 
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mr.lemons

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Both Knipex mechanic's long nose pliers and snap on long nose pliers are advertised as providing the same function so it not unreasonable to be comparing them. Mechanics (and myself) often use long nose pliers for twisting things. What are pliers for if not for twisting and bending things? As has been mentioned over and over, split pins are a good example where a mechanic requires long nose pliers for twisting.

I have found that when using long nose pliers they can they flex and slip off or spit out the object they are gripping? Therefore I looked for a stronger pair. It's no mystery why the Snap on are stronger. They are thicker. Not better, just stronger.

Knipex are great. If you want a lightweight nimble pair of long nose pliers for pulling wires through small holes etc then they are an excellent choice.

CR888. If you want to twist/bend something tightly so normal pliers jaws are too broad what tool would you use please?
 

JBH

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Due to the fervor for them on this thread I decided to see if my original impressions still hold up after experience, so I just ordered a pair of the Snappers.

I might also order a 200mm pair from Gedore needlenoses and do a full roundup. I have 200mm/8" straight needle noses from Stahlwille, Will, Klein, and Wiha on hand, as well as NWS Ergomulti (Irwin) and Orbis EvoTel. And I think I know where my Knipex ones are.
 

M6erfan

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Due to the fervor for them on this thread I decided to see if my original impressions still hold up after experience, so I just ordered a pair of the Snappers.

I might also order a 200mm pair from Gedore needlenoses and do a full roundup. I have 200mm/8" straight needle noses from Stahlwille, Will, Klein, and Wiha on hand, as well as NWS Ergomulti (Irwin) and Orbis EvoTel. And I think I know where my Knipex ones are.

En route to my mailbox?
 
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