Tools of Japan

[sweet victory]

Honestly do you have 1st/2nd hand knowledge of this? Charts and or figures comparing the top quality steel from producers such as U.S. Steel, Nucor, AK Steel, Steel Dynamics, ArcelorMittal and Kobe Steel will do. or is this just an opinion?

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I do not share the same opinion as him. Scotforge is a sub contractor where I work and they do very what I would consider some of the most impressive forgings in the world. Basing a company's manufacturing capabilities solely on tools (or katanas lol) is quiet narrow minded.

https://www.scotforge.com

 

[ttpete]

There are only two countries in the globe that can press the highest grades of steel & they are Japan & Germany. Its been like that for some time although how that translates or effects hands tools is a different issue. But knives of the best nature will be made either in Japan or Germany. The machinery to produce such steel costs many many millions, not sure why the US ain't in the game at that level but that's how it is.

I don't buy that one bit. We destroyed the steel industries of both of those Axis nations during WWII. There was nothing left. Our steel industries were intact and it was a long time before those nations recovered and their physical plants were rebuilt. The US is second to none in the field of specialty steels.

 

[Jaysreal]

Nucor had to get a license from the Japanese to do a joint venture in steel production of Japanese style steel for construction beems. Nucor-Yamato is the name stamped on the steel beem which is about the best you can buy in USA. But as for tool grade steels American companies probably substitute quality for profits.

Listen, I love Japanese tools as much as the next guy purely for the exclusivity, design, and innovation but when it comes to raw steel; that's an entirely separate discussion.

So when it comes down to the quality of steel produced, I still see no facts or technical data backing up claims of inferior USA steel production.


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[outdated]

Hmmm....

I ran through the return process on the amazon.jp website. It was all quite simple and they now say they will send another one and that my return shipping would be free. HOWEVER, I have to puy the shipping up front and hope they refund it when they receive the goods. That's fine but their shipping cost is like $16 but for me to return it it's going to be over $100 in shipping that I hope to get back later. This on a $48 tool plus another $16 shipping if I buy it on it's own.

Not sure now whether to cancel the replacement item, or just let them send it and not return the faulty one and let them charge me for the replacement which is still half the cost of me shipping mine back in case they do not refund. Or just accept the slightly wonky cross bar, it does not really affect operation of the tool.

I think you sort of have to take this as part of the online shopping experience, if stuff goes wrong you have to be prepared to just write it off.

Never expected to have an issue with Koken though.

 

[Negen]

Listen, I love Japanese tools as much as the next guy purely for the exclusivity, design, and innovation but when it comes to raw steel; that's an entirely separate discussion.

So when it comes down to the quality of steel produced, I still see no facts or technical data backing up claims of inferior USA steel production.


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Sorry if that is how I came across not my intention. I to do not think that USA steel is lower quality. I little knowledge about steel production. Or steel types just was pointing out that America's Best steel is joint USA-Japan steel. I am sure that most tool manufactures in USA use the same types of steel for same types of tools. I suspect the process od hardening and softening the tools very as well as finishing methods which probably have more to do with tools quality than that of steel production. My only point is that in construction Japanese steels are regarded as the world's best so much so that even USA steel producers sought out a joint venture to use Japanese production methods on America soil. Most the raw materials Japan use to produce steel are imported which probably like everyone else source from China amongst other places. It seems to me that historically Japanese steel has always been held in high regards. Japanese tools imported to USA have bad history due to early years USA companies that imported the tools set a max cost which resulted in the pot metal tools of the 70s and 80's

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[tanukiboy]

Hmmm....

I ran through the return process on the amazon.jp website. It was all quite simple and they now say they will send another one and that my return shipping would be free. HOWEVER, I have to puy the shipping up front and hope they refund it when they receive the goods. That's fine but their shipping cost is like $16 but for me to return it it's going to be over $100 in shipping that I hope to get back later. This on a $48 tool plus another $16 shipping if I buy it on it's own.

Not sure now whether to cancel the replacement item, or just let them send it and not return the faulty one and let them charge me for the replacement which is still half the cost of me shipping mine back in case they do not refund. Or just accept the slightly wonky cross bar, it does not really affect operation of the tool.

I think you sort of have to take this as part of the online shopping experience, if stuff goes wrong you have to be prepared to just write it off.

Never expected to have an issue with Koken though.

I have never had any problems with Amazon refunds. They have always credited my charge card promptly. That said, given the high cost of return shipping, you might want to give Amazon Japan a call. They have English-speaking representatives. I suspect that they might well tell you to simply keep the defective item. Good luck!

 

[Skin]

Why not just go through Koken US?

 

[Negen]

Why not just go through Koken US?

Is koken US still open it seems there site is very limited unless it is hard to find things there. I have a list of things I need once the wife let's me spend some monies. Looking to get the 11" zeal flex head but been waiting to see if they add a lock to it. The list grows almost daily.

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[outdated]

I have never had any problems with Amazon refunds. They have always credited my charge card promptly. That said, given the high cost of return shipping, you might want to give Amazon Japan a call. They have English-speaking representatives. I suspect that they might well tell you to simply keep the defective item. Good luck!

Thanks, I went through their 'help' section to ask about it. It led me to a form where I sent an email, I pointed out the return cost etc. An hour later I got a reply email telling me to just keep the item, the return will not be necessary.

Very good service, a shame I won't be able to buy from them anymore as of 1st July (can get around it with VPN, mail forwarders etc but it would not be practical).

Why not just go through Koken US?

I live in Australia and bought it and a bunch of other non-Koken items from Amazon JP. I doubt Koken USA would want to know about me.

 

[outdated]

I saw an article about the Amazon boss, and that he was earning $230,000 per minute. Poor ******* only earned $229,950 on the minute I returned that item!

 

[Jaysreal]

Very good service, a shame I won't be able to buy from them anymore as of 1st July

What's happening on that date? Is Amazon Japan doing some regional blocking?

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[tanukiboy]

What's happening on that date? Is Amazon Japan doing some regional blocking?

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News story from the Sydney Morning Herald.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/com...ppers-over-new-gst-rules-20180531-p4zikr.html

 

[outdated]

What's happening on that date? Is Amazon Japan doing some regional blocking?

Yes, all of Amazon - but only for Australian customers. It is due to local tax changes (very much for the worse, for us). Hence me recently buying up tools like the proverbial drunken sailor.

 

[Prowagen]

Now Net Neutrality has been repealed in the USA we too could be blocked from Amazon.co.jp or
Amazon.de in the future!


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[Air21]

Good thing America is going to be great again, we won't need those foreign tools or their foreign internet!

 

[CR888]

Germany and Japan have pressed this highest grades of steel for decades. It no secret, its known throughout industry. It doesn't mean Snap On tools are no good or poor quality, your SO socket set would cost many times more than it does had it been made of the steel quality were talking. For those who dispute this maybe do a Google search for yourself and educate yourself on the issue if your so concerned. Australia produces good steel but pressing it to the highest grade is only done in TWO COUNTRIES & the US of A ain't one of them, either is my country. I'm sorry that upsets some of you. Its something I have no control over. The US probably buys most of it in any case.

 

[Hush 74 1985]

Koken Sockets [emoji106]


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[zktk01]

I used a Snap-on Phillips #2 a few weeks ago it was camming out on a screw head, then I grabbed my Vessel Phillips it had enough bite to get the screw in flush. That convinced me I am buying Vessel for my Phillips screw drivers from now on. I am not sure if it is just the JIS DIN design being superior to Phillips, but I stick with what works.

 

[Hush 74 1985]

Vessel make screwdriver which a feature called Jawsfit. Sort of like small filings at the tip of the screwdriver which prevents cam-outs. Like Wera laser tip.


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[Jaysreal]

Germany and Japan have pressed this highest grades of steel for decades. It no secret, its known throughout industry. It doesn't mean Snap On tools are no good or poor quality, your SO socket set would cost many times more than it does had it been made of the steel quality were talking. For those who dispute this maybe do a Google search for yourself and educate yourself on the issue if your so concerned. Australia produces good steel but pressing it to the highest grade is only done in TWO COUNTRIES & the US of A ain't one of them, either is my country. I'm sorry that upsets some of you. Its something I have no control over. The US probably buys most of it in any case.

First and foremost, no one is upset. All I did was ask for evidence to substantiate your claim. Simple things like: how you know such information, what is being compared and which producers are being compared. From what I can gather from just this response, you do not reside in any of the countries in question. If you are unable and or unwilling to validate your claim how can I evaluate your comments as anything more than worthless?

Secondly, with all due respect, the claim was YOURS, ultimately the burden of proof falls on you when challenged, not others, but for the sake of the conversation, what exactly would one be looking for if they were to "maybe do a Google search"?

BTW who said anything about SNAP-ON?


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[Hush 74 1985]

First and foremost, no one is upset. All I did was ask for evidence to substantiate your claim. Simple things like: how you know such information, what is being compared and which producers are being compared. From what I can gather from just this response, you do not reside in any of the countries in question. If you are unable and or unwilling to validate your claim how can I evaluate your comments as anything more than worthless?

Secondly, with all due respect, the claim was YOURS, ultimately the burden of proof falls on you when challenged, not others, but for the sake of the conversation, what exactly would one be looking for if they were to "maybe do a Google search"?

BTW who said anything about SNAP-ON?


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Beautiful collection of koken tools [emoji108]


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[zktk01]

BTW who said anything about SNAP-ON?


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I am not getting in the debate on which country makes the best steel, I would like to think the USA does. I was only giving an example of why I go out of the way to buy Vessel in particular. I mentioned Snap-on because everyone usually holds them to high standards, BTW good job on your tool reviews.

 

[Jaysreal]

I am not getting in the debate on which country makes the best steel, I would like to think the USA does. I was only giving an example of why I go out of the way to buy Vessel in particular. I mentioned Snap-on because everyone usually holds them to high standards, BTW good job on your tool reviews.

Wasn't a dig at you bud. But thanks I try to have a little something for everyone on the YT channel. And as a matter of fact, the tools featured in the pic above will show up on the channel real soon.

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[Prowagen]

I try to have a little something for everyone on the YT channel. And as a matter of fact, the tools featured in the pic above will show up on the channel real soon.

So you are THE GARNETT TOOLS? If so love the content on your YT channel.

 

[Steve_P]

I saw an article about the Amazon boss, and that he was earning $230,000 per minute. Poor ******* only earned $229,950 on the minute I returned that item!

Actually, his salary is very low for a US CEO; look it up, way less than $1M per yr.

 

[M6erfan]

Actually, his salary is very low for a US CEO; look it up, way less than $1M per yr.

Unless you account for his stock options...

 

[tanukiboy]

Hey guys!

Speaking of Tools of Japan, here are a couple of low-profile offset bit ratchets. I initially thought that these things would be rarely needed specialty tools, but it seems I use them around the house pretty often.

I put the shortest P2 bit that fits in each of these tools to allow comparison of the clearance.

Japanese brands, in order from left to right:
Anex 425 (COO Japan)
Koken R810A (COO Japan)
SK11 SRD-210 (COO Taiwan [?])
Vessel TD-76 (COO Taiwan [!])

And for comparison, at the far right, the classic VIM HBR3

View media item 84016
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View media item 84018
Some side views to compare access:

View media item 84019
View media item 84020
View media item 84021
Rear views to show the direction switching mechanism:

View media item 84022
The Koken with the supplied (proprietary) bits and metal storage box:

View media item 84023
The Anex has a nice strong magnet to hold the bit, the direction switch is easy to use and unlikely to be actuated accidentally. On the downside, the ratchet feels rather coarse and the backdrag is quite high.

The Koken has by far the lowest backdrag, and it comes with a cute metal box. On the downside, it's the most expensive, it doesn't reverse (you have to put the bit in from the opposite side), you can only use special Koken bits (which are hard to order separately, even here in Japan), and the ratchet wheel is smaller than the side plates, so it's hard to turn it with your fingertip. Also, for some reason, the opposite end has a 5/16" non-reversing 6-point ratchet on it. Oh yeah, it's also the worst in terms of access.

The SK11 is the clear winner in the access department. It's only 13 mm (0.51 inches) from tip to the back plate. On the downside, the ratchet is coarse and the backdrag is pretty high.

The Vessel has reasonable backdrag, the reversing lever works smoothly, and it also comes with two bits in the handle. Nothing particularly negative comes to mind.

The VIM is really tiny, it has a quick-spin disk, the ratchet feels like it has a really high tooth count, the head is slightly offset, the opposite end is a nonratcheting 1/4" 6-point box wrench that holds bits firmly, and the tiny direction lever works quite well. Backdrag is pretty high though.

I've found that I tend to grab the VIM most often. The SK11 is by far the champ for access, but if access is really that tight, I wonder how you expect to back the screw out. The Koken feels like it has only 1/4 the backdrag of all the others and comes in a nice storage box. It's hard not to like it, despite its eccentricities. The Vessel and the Anex are good-quality tools that are easy to recommend.

 

[tanukiboy]

Unless you account for his stock options...

Like Bill Gates. I read somewhere that his salary at Microsoft is $250,000 a year. He sure seems to make it go a long way!

 

[gbh]

Hey Tanukiboy, it looks like I have some catching up to do
A couple of angled Anex and a straight Sunflag. All made in Japan and surprisingly useful especially in tight spots.

 

[M6erfan]

Thanks tanukiboy, great review.

I have to admit to being a sucker for good packaging, so, out of that lot, I'd go for the Kok-ken.

I have bit sets from VIM and Anex...


Anex 525-28B



The Anex set is nice as it has lo pro sockets in addition to the low profile bits. I wish the palm driver was ratcheting but its not. The ratchet has 52 teeth. Overall for a low profile set I like it. And it comes in a nice metal case (but not as HD as similar Ko-ken cases I have). Biggest negative so far is the plastic insert. It's VERY thin and I dont see it holding up long term.


VIM MRBB36


I like the VIM too. Love their Magrail as it attaches to the steel pegboard over my bench, side of my tool cart, and keeps it very secure in toolbox drawers. The bits aren't as low profile as the Anex and VIM doesn't include any sockets but it does have SAE and XZN bits. VIM ratchet is 52T too, and slightly offset. COO is Taiwan.

 

[tanukiboy]

Thanks tanukiboy, great review.

I have to admit to being a sucker for good packaging, so, out of that lot, I'd go for the Kok-ken.

Yeah, I'm also not immune to the allure of the Koken. The low backdrag of Koken ratchets makes them a real joy to use.

It's the need to use proprietary bits that keeps it from becoming my "go to" offset bit ratchet. I must have hundreds of bits from all sorts of manufacturers (Tone, Vessel, Anex, SK11, Snap-on, PB Swiss, Wera, etc.). None of these bits work with the Koken (they don't have the little tabs and spring ball, so they just slide right through). OTOH, almost all these bits work fine with all my other bit ratchets, ratcheting screwdrivers, multi-bit screwdrivers, bit adapters, extension bars, etc.

Going with the Koken is kind of like deciding to switch to a new computer operating system only to find that it won't run 99% of your software.

PS. If you're interested, Tone makes a nice little finger ratchet bit driver:

View media item 82358

 

[tanukiboy]

Vessel make screwdriver which a feature called Jawsfit. Sort of like small filings at the tip of the screwdriver which prevents cam-outs. Like Wera laser tip.


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Here's a close-up of the JawsFit tip on a Vessel screwdriver. If you stick the end of the screwdriver into a JIS screw in a vertical wall, you can let go and the screwdriver will just hang there.

View media item 80749

 

[M6erfan]

I avoid those like the plague! They mark up phillips screws and if your doing motorcycle restoration that's a big no no. Now if you dont care about that, they're great!

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Does vessel offer the ball end drivers with a regular 1/4 hex bit adapter on the end? I know the exchangable shaft drivers are 1/4, but I would like a solid one piece driver without the removable shank with a bit adapter on the end.

If not I guess I could get a 1/4 bit extension and try to find those craftsman vessel drivers I lost somewhere in the basement or garage a few years ago.

 

[M6erfan]

Does vessel offer the ball end drivers with a regular 1/4 hex bit adapter on the end?

Sort of...



Converts into more of a stubby bit holder

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Sort of...



Converts into more of a stubby bit holder

Not what I had in mind but certainly a very interesting Idea.

I'd be curious to how the mechanism is, I've got a Williams and nothing I've come across yet compares.
Now only if sears would bring those over instead of selling quick adjust ratcheting wrenches

 

[tanukiboy]

I've got a Williams and nothing I've come across yet compares.

Hi AceofSpad3s.

If you're looking for a Vessel bit-holder driver handle that doesn't ratchet, I really like this one. It's not ball end, but it's amazingly solid. The bits lock in both magnetically and mechanically and engage nice and tight. Pull on the bit as hard as you want and it won't come out unless you release the collar. Also, when the bit is engaged, the screwdriver is so solid that it feels like a "real screwdriver", seriously!

View media item 81328
If you want ratcheting, I'd recommend the (non-Japanese -- is that kosher in this thread?) Facom ACL.1APB. It also has a combination magnetic and mechanical chuck that holds the bit really tight (won't come out unless you pull the collar back). The shaft ratchets smoothly with low backdrag and, more importantly, with only a minimal amount of wobble. It comes with two sets of bits in color-coded replaceable caps. (BTW, the Facom has replaced both the Williams ratcheting driver and Wera ratcheting driver in my toolbox.)

View media item 84033
View media item 84034

 

[AceofSpad3s]

Hi AceofSpad3s.

If you want ratcheting, I'd recommend the (non-Japanese -- is that kosher in this thread?) Facom ACL.1APB. It also has a combination magnetic and mechanical chuck that holds the bit really tight (won't come out unless you pull the collar back). The shaft ratchets smoothly with low backdrag and, more importantly, with only a minimal amount of wobble. It comes with two sets of bits in color-coded replaceable caps. (BTW, the Facom has replaced both the Williams ratcheting driver and Wera ratcheting driver in my toolbox.)

That looks slick. $36 shipped from amazon UK doesn't seem too bad
Going to get myself even more trouble now though since not only is it another amazon full of things I usually can't get here, but it's in a language I can understand.

 

[M6erfan]

Well if you can live without ball end, you can still keep in Japan and ratcheting...



KTC has several different models depending on what bits you want

 

[M6erfan]

If you want ratcheting, I'd recommend the (non-Japanese -- is that kosher in this thread?) Facom ACL.1APB. It also has a combination magnetic and mechanical chuck that holds the bit really tight (won't come out unless you pull the collar back). The shaft ratchets smoothly with low backdrag and, more importantly, with only a minimal amount of wobble. It comes with two sets of bits in color-coded replaceable caps. (BTW, the Facom has replaced both the Williams ratcheting driver and Wera ratcheting driver in my toolbox.)

That looks nice. I like the knurling on the shaft, like the Vessel Megadoras