Common Neutral on Switch indicators

[yeldogt]

Noticed today that a few of my indicator switches share a common neutral for the light even though they are on different circuits .. is that OK?

Was working on the circuit for an outdoor 110v water heater. I have an outdoor kitchen and this switch lights up when the circuit is live to tell me the WH is on. I have a few other in the same box to alert ... lights you can't tell are on ..stuff like that. The power is at the various items ..... not this switch leg location .. so the electrician used one white for all the indicator positions on the switches. These only light when the power is on -- not lighted switches so you can see them in the dark

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are the circuits shared by the neutral connected to a handle tied or double pole breaker?

 

[yeldogt]

Are the circuits shared by the neutral connected to a handle tied or double pole breaker?

No --

The box has five switches -- three that light up to tell you they are "on"

The water heater is on a 20 amp breaker -- it's a small 10 gallon unit (110v) another is to a small under counter refrigerator and outlets. The third circuit is for far away lights that you can't see in the daytime. Each of these has it's own breaker.

The water heater and the lights are just the hot legs for each switch (black). So only two wires for each. The circuit that powers the refrigerator was brought into this box and then out to the outlets .. so it's black/white/ground. The ground then goes to all the other switches -- the white goes to the indicator light screw on the two others that have a light and need the neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Any circuits wih a shared neutral need to have handle tied breakers.

Im still not clear on what you have.

Are you saying that the switches use a neutral from one of the circuits despite each switch getting a hot leg from different breakers?

 

[yeldogt]

The neutral is only for the light on the switch -- the toggle is clear and it glows red with on.

I believe today code says you must run the feed to the switch location -- vs the old way to run the feed to the light and have a feeder to the switch location ..no neutral in the switch location.

That's what I have -- 4 feeders. So no neutrals ... but the little light on the switch needs a neutral. One of the switches does have a neutral .... so that neutral is used for all the switch lights. and all the grounds are tied together.

 

[Git]

So it sounds like your electrician ran 14/2 to where your switches are located for each device and is using the white neutral wire as what I would call 'switched hot' to send power back to the device?

Instead of sharing a neutral from another circuit, couldn't you add an indicator light - something like these? (perhaps add another single gang box) The light would be energized when the switch is on

As far as I know (and I am not an electrician) the reason why you need a neutral on a lighted switch is because the illuminated switch light is only on when the switch/circuit is off. (that way you can see where the switch is in the dark)

 

[yeldogt]

The switches have lights in them -- they are common Leviton 1221-PLR-20Amp. Single pole switches with an extra screw for the neutral ..so the lamp will glow when on.

 

[walta]

An outdoor kitchen will undoubtedly be GFCI protected for them to work all the current flowing out on the hot wire must flow back on a separate neutral wire or the GFCI will trip.

Also your plan endangers people that work on this system they turn off breaker #1 to work on the circuit when they disconnect the neutral wire current is still flowing because you are sharing the neutral power is coming from breaker #2. When someone takes the wirenut off the neutral wires and touch one white wire with their left hand and another white wire with their right hand there is a very good chance that person would get a shock or worse.

Walta

 

[alfredeneuman]

Any circuits wih a shared neutral need to have handle tied breakers.

That rule is fairly recent in NEC history (newer than 25 yrs or so).

Before that they just needed to be run to the same panel, and weren't even required to be grouped together. (You could have 1 on breaker #1 and the other on breaker #42)

 

[Git]

The switches have lights in them -- they are common Leviton 1221-PLR-20Amp. Single pole switches with an extra screw for the neutral ..so the lamp will glow when on.

I have never seen those before

Lighted Handle Illuminated When Load is OFF. Pilot Light Toggle Illuminated When Load is ON

So if you don't have a neutral, you would probably lose the "Lighted Handle Illuminated When Load is OFF" function, but you should be able to have the Pilot Light Toggle when the switch is on

I have a light switch where I didn't run a neutral and it bit me in the **** recently when I wanted to change the switch to a Z Wave switch. I had another switch in the same box on a different circuit and it did have a neutral, but I decided against doing it.

 

[Radix2]

So if you don't have a neutral, you would probably lose the "Lighted Handle Illuminated When Load is OFF" function, but you should be able to have the Pilot Light Toggle when the switch is on

That doesn't make sense. When the switch is on, the two switch terminals are shorted together. Where are you getting the voltage to power the indicator without the neutral?

You could do the opposite by having the indicator powered when off by using a parasitic current through the load (as those old lighted wall switches do).. but this is a bad practice, leaving voltage present even with the switch off.

 

[Git]

That doesn't make sense. When the switch is on, the two switch terminals are shorted together. Where are you getting the voltage to power the indicator without the neutral?

You could do the opposite by having the indicator powered when off by using a parasitic current through the load (as those old lighted wall switches do).. but this is a bad practice, leaving voltage present even with the switch off.

The neutral is back at the light/device. They ran 14/2 or 12/2 to the switch and I believe they are using the white neutral wire as 'switched hot' to go back to the light/device. So basically, the switch indicator is wired in series with the light/device.

That is why your better off running 14/3 or 12/3 in situations like this because you can use the red wire as 'switched hot' back to the light/device and still have your neutral

 

[yeldogt]

The above digram is what I have for 4 of the switches (no white neutral for any of them) -- just the hot leg to the switch. The only power source into the box from the panel is for the refrigerator outlet circuit.

They took the white from the refrigerator circuit and used it to provide the neutral for the switch lights.

The above link to the switch is correct -- except mine are red. This is located at an outdoor kitchen at the rear of my property -- we have a small pool house and these switches are master controls that shut off banks of lights and outlets. We don't leave the water heater on all the time

 

[Bert_]

It's not 100% correct, you have loads from four different circuits using the same neutral. But it is just for the indicator lights and it's not something I would be real worried about.

 

[Git]

Hopefully, Wylie will come back and render a professional opinion....

Removing the neutral wires - I am pretty sure that all your going to lose is the switch won't be illuminated when it is in the off position. It should still light up when it is in the on position. You could try it and see and then decide if it is something you could live with. (The switch with the one circuit that has a neutral would still be illuminated in off the position so at least you could still see where the switches are)

 

[yeldogt]

Hopefully, Wylie will come back and render a professional opinion....

Removing the neutral wires - I am pretty sure that all your going to lose is the switch won't be illuminated when it is in the off position. It should still light up when it is in the on position. You could try it and see and then decide if it is something you could live with. (The switch with the one circuit that has a neutral would still be illuminated in off the position so at least you could still see where the switches are)

The switch is not designed to light up in the "off" position .... when you flip the switch to "on" the light gets power as does the load .... but, without a neutral ..the light will not work. The neutral is just for the light.

Have I not seen all the whites tied together in switch when you have two feeds -- or are they always separate ... know I have seen all the grounds tied together.

Just trying to understand -- At my beach house think I have one white wire going out around my property in a conduit -- also in the conduit is a black, red and a couple other colors .. purple. + green ground. They feed outlets and a bunch of light circuits on piers around the permitter -- all with switches. I think the outlet are one circuit and all the lights are a second.

 

[Bert_]

Have I not seen all the whites tied together in switch when you have two feeds -- or are they always separate ... know I have seen all the grounds tied together.

They should not be all tied together if there are two circuits. Each neutral should only be tied to the loads on it's circuit.

Just trying to understand -- At my beach house think I have one white wire going out around my property in a conduit -- also in the conduit is a black, red and a couple other colors .. purple. + green ground. They feed outlets and a bunch of light circuits on piers around the permitter -- all with switches. I think the outlet are one circuit and all the lights are a second.

Multiple switch legs on the same circuit can use the same neutral. Also since you say there are two circuits this could be a multiwire circuit. Each hot would be on different phases so the neutral current cancels and they can share the same white wire. In a new install a circuit like this would require a 2 pole breaker or one with handle ties, but it used to be acceptable to use two 1 pole breakers on opposite phases.

 

[Git]

Have I not seen all the whites tied together in switch when you have two feeds -- or are they always separate ... know I have seen all the grounds tied together.

This comes up a lot when you have 3-way and 4-way switches.

For example a switch at the top of the stairs and a switch at the bottom of the stairs. In my house, for example, the switch at the top of the stairs also has a switch next to it for the 2nd-floor hallway lights which are on a separate circuit. So I have two circuits in that box, but the neutrals stay separate and yes, I tie all the grounds together

 

[Radix2]

The neutral is back at the light/device. They ran 14/2 or 12/2 to the switch and I believe they are using the white neutral wire as 'switched hot' to go back to the light/device. So basically, the switch indicator is wired in series with the light/device.

That is why your better off running 14/3 or 12/3 in situations like this because you can use the red wire as 'switched hot' back to the light/device and still have your neutral

The switch indicator cannot/is not wired in series with the load.

Again, you are misunderstanding this very basic circuit.