running two circuits from one building to the next.

[snickers muncher]

I would like to run two circuits from an old barn to another smaller storage building 12 feet away. There is currently one 12 gauge line without ground strung from one building to the next. It has printed on it something to the effect of approved for UV and weather exposure. This was done sometime in the 70's to power two pull chain light fixtures, but hasn't been used since the early 80s. This has got to go.

I would like one circuit to power my table saw and miter saw. The second would be for lights and smaller equipment like my bench top drill press. I have a lot of 12/2 romex. Can I run pvc conduit from one gable to the next using proper wall connections and run the romex through, or do I need to go the conduit and underground feeder route? Up high would be a lot quicker and easier.

Thanks,

John

 

[Norcal]

You can only run one circuit / feed to a outbuilding, NM cable "Romex" is only allowed in dry locations and a underground conduit is a wet location, there is more but am on a phone.

 

[bubinga]

You can only run one circuit / feed to a outbuilding, NM cable "Romex" is only allowed in dry locations and a underground conduit is a wet location, there is more but am on a phone.

Is a multiwire circuit allowed using UF wire, then run hot and share neutral to a gcfi and then to are there outlets on the load side and the other hot wire and shared neutral to a lighting circuit I am in the same boat as at the o p would rather not have my lights and my table saw and such on the same circuit but I don't want to run a sub panel if I don't have to cuz I really don't need 220

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[sberry]

Yes you can run a 20A multiwire.

 

[Norcal]

A multiwire feed is one circuit.

 

[snickers muncher]

So are you suggesting that I run a 12/3 underground feeder and hook both circuits onto the one neutral? The first stop on each circuit was going to be on a GFCI. I'll be removing an unused 30amp 240 in the barn to power this small shop.

 

[dscheidt]

So are you suggesting that I run a 12/3 underground feeder and hook both circuits onto the one neutral? The first stop on each circuit was going to be on a GFCI. I'll be removing an unused 30amp 240 in the barn to power this small shop.

First stop should be a switch, then a pair of GFCIs. You split the neutral at that point.

If I were going to the work of burying direct burial cable, I'd use 8/3 UF and install a 6 space subpanel. No more work, more flexible, only about $100 extra in material.

 

[bubinga]

First stop should be a switch, then a pair of GFCIs. You split the neutral at that point.

If I were going to the work of burying direct burial cable, I'd use 8/3 UF and install a 6 space subpanel. No more work, more flexible, only about $100 extra in material.

With a (fed from a) 40 Amp breaker right?
I thought you didn't need GFCI on the circuit going to the lights?

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[bubinga]

With a (fed from a) 40 Amp breaker right?
I thought you didn't need GFCI on the circuit going to the lights?

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Oh, but if I ran an 40 Amp sub, I'd need a ground rod or 2 right?
No plumbing or anything is running from house to the garage.

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[AntonLargiader]

With a (fed from a) 40 Amp breaker right?
I thought you didn't need GFCI on the circuit going to the lights?

He's talking about a MWBC which would have to be a 15A or 20A double breaker or handle-tied pair. Over 20A and you'd need to breaker/fuse the circuits down to 20 which defeats the purpose of MWBC simplicity.

So: 20A MWBC or a larger feed with a subpanel and the associated grounding.

And I think that's right, that you only need to GFCI the receptacles.

 

[bubinga]

He's talking about a MWBC which would have to be a 15A or 20A double breaker or handle-tied pair. Over 20A and you'd need to breaker/fuse the circuits down to 20 which defeats the purpose of MWBC simplicity.

So: 20A MWBC or a larger feed with a subpanel and the associated grounding.

And I think that's right, that you only need to GFCI the receptacles.

Thank you. Yeah I think I'm just going to run a multiwire branch circuit so I can have two separate 110 circuits.
But if I have to use a tie together breaker if I would blow a breaker on my power tool circuit, that would cut my lights off too. Oh well it is what it is.
So on a multiwire branch circuit I am required to use a double pole breaker tied together correct?
Now with a multiwire branch circuit 15 or 20 amp no sub panel , I do not need a grounding rod driven correct?

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[AntonLargiader]

Double will trip together. Handle-tied only joins them for manual on/off operations, not tripping, AFAIK.

 

[bubinga]

Double will trip together. Handle-tied only joins them for manual on/off operations, not tripping, AFAIK.

Oh, so IOW's I just use 2 single pole breakers, and handle tie them .
Not a Double pole 220 breaker.
Does one buy the handle ties separate?

 

[bubinga]

Am I required to put a cut off or pull out of some type,in the garage, or out side of the garage,
Or is that just for a Sub panel?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Both hot legs need a disconnect but on/off snap switches (not 3-way) inside the door are OK.

 

[Norcal]

Am I required to put a cut off or pull out of some type,in the garage, or out side of the garage,
Or is that just for a Sub panel?

If a multiwire circuit is run, use a 2-pole switch as a disconnect.

 

[bubinga]

Both hot legs need a disconnect but on/off snap switches (not 3-way) inside the door are OK.

If a multiwire circuit is run, use a 2-pole switch as a disconnect.

Was thinking of something like this, (I have one already)

 

[AntonLargiader]

Looks great; the snap switches are the minimum requirement. If you use a true disconnect then your receptacle loads don't have to run through a switch (if that bothers you).

 

[sberry]

A simple 20A switch for that kind of shack doesn't bother me. Its not really switching loads.

 

[bubinga]

Looks great; the snap switches are the minimum requirement. If you use a true disconnect then your receptacle loads don't have to run through a switch (if that bothers you).

A simple 20A switch for that kind of shack doesn't bother me. Its not really switching loads.

That will be great then.
thank You.

 

[bubinga]

That will be great then.
thank You.[emoji481]

Okay so using UF and a multi circuit is allowed. Just playing The Devil's Advocate why are two separate circuits not allowed? When using underground feeder I'm allowed a multi wire circuit sharing the neutral why am I not allowed to just run two number 12 with ground UF over to the garage what is the danger just wondering. Again I am planning on running a 3-wire with ground of course multi circuit to the garage with a gcfi for the outlets no G CFI for the lights. But what is the actual danger in two circuits?

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[AntonLargiader]

It's about knowing that all power is shut off. The MWBC is allowed only when it has simultaneous shut-off for both hots. That's the code. Other configurations might seem to meet the intent of the code but the code says what it says.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Okay so using UF and a multi circuit is allowed. Just playing The Devil's Advocate why are two separate circuits not allowed? When using underground feeder I'm allowed a multi wire circuit sharing the neutral why am I not allowed to just run two number 12 with ground UF over to the garage what is the danger just wondering. Again I am planning on running a 3-wire with ground of course multi circuit to the garage with a gcfi for the outlets no G CFI for the lights. But what is the actual danger in two circuits?

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To sum it up- safety/to prevent shock potential.

Many times someone will forget the handle tie setting up the potential for danger.

Years later someone else is working on the circuit, turns the breaker off goes back to undue some splices in a box and gets bit by the neutral.

 

[bubinga]

Thank You, Does the double pole shut off, need to be outside, or can it be inside.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I don't think the shut-off (in the accessory building) needs to be double-pole for a MWBC. I think you can use a snap switch on each leg, and they can be inside the building. For instance if you had one leg for lights and one for receps, the light switch (as long as it's the first thing in that leg of the circuit) is one shut-off and then you have another one for the receps. It makes sense to have them close together but I personally would put the recep switch under a cover or something so I didn't always kill the receps when I walked in.

 

[bubinga]

I don't think the shut-off (in the accessory building) needs to be double-pole for a MWBC. I think you can use a snap switch on each leg, and they can be inside the building. For instance if you had one leg for lights and one for receps, the light switch (as long as it's the first thing in that leg of the circuit) is one shut-off and then you have another one for the receps. It makes sense to have them close together but I personally would put the recep switch under a cover or something so I didn't always kill the receps when I walked in.

OK Thanks,