New main panel off old one ?

[yeldogt]

Would like to get a new Square D load center and connect it to the existing with the idea that the old would be eliminated eventually Can you connect a 200 to a 100? If I did a 100 to 100 -- assuming I can just use a 100 breaker to the new panel and keep the 100 main breaker in the new panel? How would you do the 200? How many feet of wire are you allowed inside a building before the panel?


This is for a rental in the city -- actually a house that I lived in for a short time more than 20 years ago. I got transferred back and bought it from a bank that my friend was working for .. it had been sort of rehabbed. The original panel (Square D) is sort of a mess -- it was somehow dented and the basement was damp -- so surface rust all over it ... it's also wedged against a wall. The wiring is all over the place. I don't want to play around with the old one -- or trust the old breakers.

My plan was to install the new panel a few feet over -- add needed dedicated circuits to the house and then move over what I can.

The house is now in a very desirable location and I can double the rent with some upgrades (kitchen/ bath/ floors) -- the service cable to the house is fine so I'm not sure I want to get into replacing that as well ... and the city power company annoyance. The area is such that many of the two story townhomes as mine are being demolished anyway --

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So is the current 100a panel the main service panel?

 

[yeldogt]

So is the current 100a panel the main service panel?

Yes ..

Thinking about it a bit more ......... can't see how it would ever need more than 100amp. Gas Heat/DHW/Range -- the AC is the only big electric user and that is only 2T. 100 amp is what I want to do.

The place was worked on in the late 80's -- I'm assuming the panel was done then .... I bought it in the 90's and fixed all the damp issues in the basement.

Having the new panel would allow for incremental work. A new service and panel I'm sure would be 3k if I paid someone ... and I still will have to rewire for new circuits. But -- I don't want to install this new panel and have some issue if I have to do a new service cable from outside.

 

[ard]

Can one install a 200A panel with a 200A disconnect but use it as a subpanel, supplied with a 100a or 90a breaker?

That way it would be 'future proof'....when you are ready for the service upgrade just cross over the remaining circuits on the old...then new weatherhead, meter, line to the 200A disco.

The incremental cost of a 100A or 200A right now as a sub, will be peanuts.

And buyers like hearing "200A upgrade, ready for solar and car charging"

 

[yeldogt]

Can one install a 200A panel with a 200A disconnect but use it as a subpanel, supplied with a 100a or 90a breaker?

That way it would be 'future proof'....when you are ready for the service upgrade just cross over the remaining circuits on the old...then new weatherhead, meter, line to the 200A disco.

The incremental cost of a 100A or 200A right now as a sub, will be peanuts.

And buyers like hearing "200A upgrade, ready for solar and car charging"

That was my original question

Wanted to get a typical panel -- with the main breaker. I don't know if you can install a 100amp breaker and feed a new 200amp panel w/ 200amp main breaker.

also don't know how far into a building the panel can be.

If I place the new panel two feet to the left of the the old -- most of the wires are coming from that direction anyway -- so there will be little splicing.

It's an open basement -- it's a crappy little house that I paid 60k for that's now worth 550k and counting .. the one next door is now 4 floors with a roof deck and sold for 1.1m

 

[brewchief]

I don't know about your area but in some a home owner can't do certain things in a rental house legally. I say pay to have a new panel put in and upgraded to 200 amp if needed, get it inspected and then you could do whatever you want as far as additional circuits. Replacement of your current panel sounds like it will involve the power company any way so you might as well get it over with and do it right.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[dscheidt]

Can one install a 200A panel with a 200A disconnect but use it as a subpanel, supplied with a 100a or 90a breaker?

Sure. In that case, the main isn't serving as overcurent protection, but as a disconnect.

One other than that will have to be done to the current main when the swap occurs is to separate the grounds and neutrals. Only the main disconnect location is allowed to have the neutral bonded to the ground.

 

[yeldogt]

Sure. In that case, the main isn't serving as overcurent protection, but as a disconnect.

One other than that will have to be done to the current main when the swap occurs is to separate the grounds and neutrals. Only the main disconnect location is allowed to have the neutral bonded to the ground.

Have installed subpanels -- both remote to a garage/studio and close to an existing panel for extra spaces.

.. never in this situation ... it's an odd reason.

I actually have a 200amp Siemiens panel that was purchased for another project by mistake ....maybe just use that since I can use the 200 amp main in it.

 

[yeldogt]

I don't know about your area but in some a home owner can't do certain things in a rental house legally. I say pay to have a new panel put in and upgraded to 200 amp if needed, get it inspected and then you could do whatever you want as far as additional circuits. Replacement of your current panel sounds like it will involve the power company any way so you might as well get it over with and do it right.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Well -- once it's unoccupied .. it's no longer a rental -- not multi family.

My plan was to move most of the stuff to the new panel and run suitable CU 4 conductor wire to new 100amp breaker in old panel. I will not need electric co

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes ..

Thinking about it a bit more ......... can't see how it would ever need more than 100amp. Gas Heat/DHW/Range -- the AC is the only big electric user and that is only 2T. 100 amp is what I want to do.

The place was worked on in the late 80's -- I'm assuming the panel was done then .... I bought it in the 90's and fixed all the damp issues in the basement.

Having the new panel would allow for incremental work. A new service and panel I'm sure would be 3k if I paid someone ... and I still will have to rewire for new circuits. But -- I don't want to install this new panel and have some issue if I have to do a new service cable from outside.

That was my original question

Wanted to get a typical panel -- with the main breaker. I don't know if you can install a 100amp breaker and feed a new 200amp panel w/ 200amp main breaker.

also don't know how far into a building the panel can be.

If I place the new panel two feet to the left of the the old -- most of the wires are coming from that direction anyway -- so there will be little splicing.

It's an open basement -- it's a crappy little house that I paid 60k for that's now worth 550k and counting .. the one next door is now 4 floors with a roof deck and sold for 1.1m

Since the current panel is your main service panel, it complicates things for your idea of installing a subpanel now and converting it to the main later. Are you sure its the main service panel? Do you have a meter with disconnect or just meter in a divorced meter pan?

Some pics would help here.

The subpanel MUST be rated for use as service equipment. This means that the neutral bar will be bonded and you will need to remove that bond and add a ground bar when using it for a subpanel. The GECs from electrodes and water lines and gas pipes will need to be moved over as well.

As far as distance inside, there is no NEC code for max length of service entrance conductors however many localities do have limits around 5-6'.

 

[yeldogt]

The meter is outside -- no disconnect.

My plan was to get a a service rated panel with the main breaker -- don't all sub-panels now require the main breaker as a disconnect for code? (over six breakers). Years ago I remember the sub panels did not have disconnects.

The last service panels I looked at had the ability to remove the bonding to have the neutral and ground separate. Run 4 conductor to the sub .. leave all the grounding in the old panel.

I'm not touching the service entrance cable or meter. I will shut the main off ....wire in the new 4 conductor to the new 100amp breaker and flip it back on. But, I want to be able to have a pro install a new service line in the future if I keep the place that long.

 

[alfredeneuman]

#4 is only rated for 85A in the 75 degree column. Since it's a subpanel that's the column you should use
#3 is rated for 100A

EDIT: #4 can be used for 100A service that provides the total load for the residence

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The meter is outside -- no disconnect.

My plan was to get a a service rated panel with the main breaker -- don't all sub-panels now require the main breaker as a disconnect for code? (over six breakers). Years ago I remember the sub panels did not have disconnects.

The last service panels I looked at had the ability to remove the bonding to have the neutral and ground separate. Run 4 conductor to the sub .. leave all the grounding in the old panel.

I'm not touching the service entrance cable or meter. I will shut the main off ....wire in the new 4 conductor to the new 100amp breaker and flip it back on. But, I want to be able to have a pro install a new service line in the future if I keep the place that long.

No, not all subpanels have a main because its not required. A subpanel in the same structure as the main does NOT require a main disconnect or breaker. Only subpanels in detached structures with more than 6 handles requires a disconnect which doesnt have to be a main breaker- could be separate disconnect.

You should check with local AHJ to make sure they dont have a restriction on service entrance wire length before placing that sub.

How long is the current service entrance wire?

#4 is only rated for 85A in the 75 degree column. Since it's a subpanel that's the column you should use
#3 is rated for 100A

EDIT: #4 can be used for 100A service that provides the total load for the residence

Where did he mention #4?

 

[yeldogt]

The panel is a couple feet from where the wire enters the house -- Brick house ... wire comes down outside wall and enters basement.

Thanks for the clarification on when the disconnect is required. On another project I'm working on I have a sub-panel w/o the disconnect and was told I may have to upgrade if I do much work in the building ... this is separate building from where the service is located.

I want the new panel to be SE rated with the main breaker -- if and when I have to do the new service line I want this to be able to be connected w/o issue. I want to make sure it's OK to have the 100amp main in this panel fed from the old panel. So there will be 3x 100 amp breakers.

It could be a 90amp breaker if need be -- the house is only a bit over 1100sf. With the Range/ furnace and dryer gas -- the property has a very low electric load.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Where did he mention #4?

Post #9
"My plan was to move most of the stuff to the new panel and run suitable CU 4 conductor wire to new 100amp breaker in old panel."

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Post #9
"My plan was to move most of the stuff to the new panel and run suitable CU 4 conductor wire to new 100amp breaker in old panel."

I read that as copper 4 conductor as in 4-wire. Just like in #11 he said 4 conductor.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Regardless, all was not in vain anyway.
He knows the right size to use if he didn't know already

 

[Bert_]

If the service is #4 then the sub panel can also be #4. Even for a 100A sub panel. The wire for the feeder is never required to be larger than the service.

 

[Norcal]

If the service is #4 then the sub panel can also be #4. Even for a 100A sub panel. The wire for the feeder is never required to be larger than the service.

That change in the code was a good one.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Thanks Changes?
Where should I look in the NEC for that & which edition?

edit:
Wouldn't that mean #2 Aluminum would be good for 100Amp subfeed as well ?

 

[Norcal]

Thanks Changes?
Where should I look in the NEC for that & which edition?

edit:
Wouldn't that mean #2 Aluminum would be good for 100Amp subfeed as well ?

Not if the service is over 100A, IMHO.

 

[yeldogt]

Guess a look at the service feed size is in order? ...... So, a #4 copper on a 100amp breaker is OK as long as everything is out of the old panel?

Not sure I have a 100amp around -- maybe just get a 90amp in case I don't move everything over .... although my plan is to move it all over. That way the #4 is OK as I move stuff .. sound reasonable?

At some point when I need a sparky -- he can pull the meter and run a new line from the meter pan to the new panel.

It's a strange situation. Currently get $1550 a month ... but the neighborhood is commanding $2500 - to $3000 for this size in better condition. I put new windows and doors in about 5 years ago -- the roof is new. It's a solid little house .. but dated. I could get 2k with some painting and carpet. My plan was to replace all the appliances, bathroom sink /toilet and shower plumbing for maintenance reasons anyway .. the water heater and HVAC is maybe 8 years old. The agent says 3k is possible ... I think $2700 --- but, that would require new kitchen cabinets and counters, complete new bathroom and wood floors on the second floor. The first floor is all tile and I'm sure the floors under are a mess. This area of the city is all pre WWI. The upgrades will add little value for a sale. The recents sales have all been gutted -- new brick fronts w/ two added floors and roof decks .. reconfigured interiors.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Not if the service is over 100A, IMHO.

That's a given

Do either one of you know where it is in the NEC?

 

[alfredeneuman]

I didn't read the part where the OP mentioned that he was working with a rental house. :tard:
The exception is limited to "dwelling units".
I (wrongly) thought it was a garage.