Replacement for Mapp gas

[Raisedonadeere]

Back around 2006 I installed successfully some 3 ton heat pump split systems. Just helping out some folks that were going to have to do without if some one did not extend charity. Those systems are still running no leaks. I used Mapp gas to braze the line . The new Mapp gas concerns me that it won’t do the job.

The expense of a acetelyn rig add greatly to my cost since I don’t anticipate needing it for anything else. Is there any other viable alternative torch setup for a diy install. I just learned about the oxy mapp torches but they seem to be high temp but low heat capacity. I just don’t know much except general theory about actual success on refrigerant lines these days. I do the nitrogen purge as I braze. I seem to recall that there are different things to watch for on R410 than my previous R22 installs.
But basically I just want a suitable torch for about 1/2 hour and be done with it forever.

 

[pitterpat]

Can you rent that setup?

 

[InsanePyro]

What about just using propane? Or maybe one of those mini oxy/acetylene outfits?

 

[Lelandwelds]

Propylene is mighty close to mapp. Similiar btu per cu ft as propane but 1000°F hotter. Can use propane tips.

Nearly as hot as acetylene but more than half again as many btu.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Propylene is mighty close to mapp. Similiar btu per cu ft as propane but 1000°F hotter. Can use propane tips.

Nearly as hot as acetylene but more than half again as many btu.

Thanks all. I recall that my Mapp gas torch was barely adequate, just knew I was going to fry the valves at the condenser, but with precision wet rag coverage around the valve I got the feeling that the solder flowed just about when the valve would be fried. Anyway typical diy squeak by by the skin of my teeth the jobs went successfully. But upon learning about the propylene replacement of the original gas I have wondered if that is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Due to you your comments I am going to try a few practice brazes.

I probably could rent a acetylene rig but that is a big learning curve for such a one time job. Going to to do some reading, and watch a youtube or two.

In the past I have justified tool purchases on the basis that even if I break even on this job versus hiring it done, I will have the tool for future jobs. The Hvac contrators in this area are forcing me to consider spending a day or two of my time and $500 in tools to get my unit in even though Iwill. Have little use later on.

The lowest price I can get is $1000 to braze, check for leaks, pull vacuum, release refrigerant etc. Just a few hours work. Motivates me to become a one time acetylene grazer because I can do all the other stuff hands down. I even have extra r410 and a vacuum pump.

I really don’t fault the HVAC guy, his price is probably about right for making a decent living, yet this seems like too easy $1000 to suit my taste. That’s just me I guess.

 

[rlitman]

...I probably could rent a acetylene rig but that is a big learning curve...

If you're comparing an air-acetylene swirl flame against an air-mapp swirl flame, they're almost the same.

 

[MoonRise]

Harris (Lincoln's gas welding/heating/brazing group) says that their air-fuel swirl-tip Inferno torch tips rate the air-acetylene tips more than twice the brazing 'capacity' for the same size tip as air-propane or air-propylene.

example:

Inferno air-acetylene 5/16" tip HA-5i rated for brazing 1/4" to 1" copper tube

Inferno air-propane or air-propylene 5/16" tip HT-2i rated for brazing up to 1/4" copper tube.

To get to at least 1" braze capability with air-propylene, you'd have to go up to an HT-4i 1/2" tip. Air-propane, you'd have to go up to an HT-5i 3/4" tip.

If you want an air-fuel soft-flame (not a swirl flame) tip, Harris says their 5/16" HS-5 air-acetylene soft flame tip is rated for brazing 1/2" to 3/4" copper tube.

Note that all the mentioned tips use different fuel flow rates (and pressures!) depending on the tip size/type.

Just an FYI.

If you thought that your old air-MAPP (actual MAPP gas, not the replacement-but-not-even-really-close-to-the-same MaP stuff in the yellow cylinders that is pretty much just propylene) was marginal before, then the current yellow cylinder propylene Map will almost certainly be inadequate.

I'd say to go for at least an air-acetylene swirl tip. Even with the expense and 'hassle' of dealing with acetylene, it still rules for intense high heat.

 

[rlitman]

I don't know the Lincoln lineup well, but I have all of the TurboTorch swirl tips (Victor).
From their charts: https://www.macombgroup.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/TTA11_Broc.pdf

The T-4 tip which is 1/2" will silver solder up to 3/4" on propane or 1-1/4" on MAPP.
The A-14 tip which is also 1/2" will silver solder up to 2" on acetylene.

However, comparing on diameter alone isn't really fair. Acetylene has a higher rate of flame speed. i.e. it burns faster, so the acetylene swirl will have more concentrated heat (and is louder), but if you step up to a bigger propane tip, you can still get the job done.

 

[MoonRise]

Yup.

Your Victor/TurboTorch numbers pretty much are in line with the Harris/Lincoln numbers.

For the same size torch tip (but with different flow rates from the different fuel's burning characteristics), acetylene is (usually) a bit more than 2x the 'capability' of the same size torch tip with propane/propylene (ignoring MAPP because that just doesn't exist anymore ).

Victor/TurboTorch 1/2" sized T-4 tip on propane rated 3/4" for silver solder (which may or may not be "brazing" depending on the exact 'solder' being used).

V/TT 1/2" sized A-14 tip on acetylene rate 2" for silver solder. A bit over 2x the 'capability' for the same 'size' tip using a different fuel (and flow rate, and burning characteristics, etc).

Acetylene has a hotter flame, although other fuels can produce as much or more total heat (BTU/hr) with a bigger torch/flame.

If the OP was barely able to do the job in the past with a 'standard' homeowner's type propane/MAPP torch, it sure sounds like a new torch and/or fuel will be needed. And the new MaP crud really isn't going to do it with the old torch.

And although sometimes you can use a bigger torch tip with a 'cooler' fuel to get the job done, sometimes you just can't get that big torch and big flame right where you need/want and really do have to use the hotter more intense acetylene torch.

Again, YMMV and all that.

 

[theoldwizard1]

From Wikipedia

In early 2008, true MAPP gas production ended in North America when production was discontinued at the only remaining plant in North America that still manufactured it. However, many current products labeled "MAPP" are, in fact, MAPP substitutes. These versions (MAP-Pro) are composed almost entirely of propylene with minuscule impurities of propane

MAP-Pro is hotter than propane but not as hot as the old fashion MAPP.

All the A/C guys braze with acetylene.

 

[Gerald O]

Something like the Bernzomatic Mapp/Oxy torch might do the job. It's a lot hotter than Mapp alone. Downside is that the oxy tank runs out pretty fast so it's only good for small quick jobs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-WK5500-Brazing-Torch-Kit-361487/300055608

 

[rlitman]

Something like the Bernzomatic Mapp/Oxy torch might do the job. It's a lot hotter than Mapp alone. Downside is that the oxy tank runs out pretty fast so it's only good for small quick jobs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-WK5500-Brazing-Torch-Kit-361487/300055608

Ugh, those are utter ****. Its great when you run out of oxygen just as you finally manage to get the flame adjusted, and before you can actually get anything useful done.

 

[brewchief]

An option to a hotter torch might be stay brite #8, I prefer brazing but plenty of pros do use stay brite#8, spend some time and research it and see if you feel that it will work in your situation.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Ton of information here. Thanks to all. Everything said helped in some way. I researched Turbotorch and got to thinking that for around $200 I could have a handy torch for brazing jobs, but when I visited the only welding supplier in town and got the low down on acetylene $ and logistics I winced again. They serve well the guys that make a living in Hvac, farming and construction. So even though there are nice setups available for us lesser guys, I don’t find a friendly environment around here for casual use brazing. I am going to explore oxy propane and Mapp options that will do the job without the logistics and cost escalation.

12 years ago I went to Lowe’s and bought $60 Mapp torch with fuel and soldered and brazed away oblivious to what true brazing entailed. Having started my new house it is a head swimmer with how much costs of everything has increased simply because one can’t do something the way it was done in the past.

I am not ready to toss in the towel just yet. I will get this done even if I have to come up with some strange work around. The 3 ton Comfort Tech heat pump I installed in 1973 did not require brazing.it came with precharged line set that you just attached with a crescent wrench. It held its charge for 27 years. I noticed HVACDirect has a system, Accu Charge or some such name that employers something like my old Comfort Tech.

 

[metlmunchr]

An option to a hotter torch might be stay brite #8, I prefer brazing but plenty of pros do use stay brite#8, spend some time and research it and see if you feel that it will work in your situation.

I've always used a Turbo torch and a B acetylene tank with 15% silphos, but I fixed a leak on a friend's system a few months ago that convinced me Stay Brite #8 will work fine on residential refrigerant lines just as the manufacturer says it will.

The system was an early Carrier 410A split, in operation for about 15 years to the best recollection of the owner. I found a leak at the connection of the suction line to the evaporator. Sweated the connection apart and a strip of the tube about 1/4 wide was dirty and had not taken the solder. In that area the solder had bridged across and stuck to the OD of the tube and the swage it slipped into.

The tube in the dirty area had a slight crease along its length. I have no idea what made the crease, but I assume the original installer cleaned the tube using a piece of cloth and a shoe shine motion, typical for cleaning the OD of copper. I guess he forgot the most important part where you look at the tube after cleaning to see if it at least looks like the sanding cloth has made contact all the way around.

This was the first time he'd had a loss of refrigerant, and has owned the house since before the system was installed. IMO, if that bridged area held up for 15 years before failing, there's no question in my mind that a good joint would outlast the life of the system. I didn't care to try to clean the soft solder off the joint to the point where I could use silphos, so I cleaned the tube and remade the joint with Stay Brite #8.

The OP can spend about 55 bucks on a roll of Stay Brite #8 and a bottle of Stay Clean flux, and the joints can be made with a plain old Bernz-o-matic torch. The low temperatures eliminate the need for a nitrogen purge while making the joints as they're low enough that no scale is going to form on/in the copper. Obviously, the joints have to be meticulously cleaned unlike with silphos, and you don't slop globs of flux into the joints where you melt it out and run it into the tubing long before the joint is hot enough to take solder.

Anyone not experienced with soft solder should buy a few feet of copper and a handful of couplings, along with fitting brushes, acid brushes, and sandcloth, and practice before moving on to make refrigerant joints. Clean the tube and fitting, avoid touching the cleaned surfaces as oil from your skin will contaminate the joint, apply a minimal amount of flux with the acid brush, and make the joint. Then heat it back up and pull it apart to see of both tube and fitting are 100% tinned (covered with solder). Any dirty or otherwise contaminated areas will be immediately obvious. When you can do that successfully every time, you're ready to move on to the real thing.

Added on edit: The mechanically coupled fittings the OP used in the 70's were likely Aeroquip. Since he had no leaks at these fittings over time, he was in the lucky 20 or 25 percent as more of them leaked than not. No idea how any of the current mechanical couplings may work, but I'd assume they're better than the ones from years ago. The couplings used on mini splits are very critical as regards tightening torque, and I'd assume the larger ones are as well. In reality, hydraulic fittings capable of containing 10,000 psi are common as dirt, so it shouldn't be any major feat to design fittings to contain refrigerant pressures in the 500 psi range.

 

[danski0224]

Ton of information here. Thanks to all. Everything said helped in some way. I researched Turbotorch and got to thinking that for around $200 I could have a handy torch for brazing jobs, but when I visited the only welding supplier in town and got the low down on acetylene $ and logistics I winced again. They serve well the guys that make a living in Hvac, farming and construction. So even though there are nice setups available for us lesser guys, I don’t find a friendly environment around here for casual use brazing. I am going to explore oxy propane and Mapp options that will do the job without the logistics and cost escalation.

I am not ready to toss in the towel just yet. I will get this done even if I have to come up with some strange work around. The 3 ton Comfort Tech heat pump I installed in 1973 did not require brazing.it came with precharged line set that you just attached with a crescent wrench. It held its charge for 27 years. I noticed HVACDirect has a system, Accu Charge or some such name that employers something like my old Comfort Tech.

In my neck of the woods, the HVAC supply houses have B tanks and MC tanks (smaller). The welding suppliers have this stuff too, but I'd assume that most HVAC installers/service techs do not use a welding supplier for acetylene or nitrogen- excluding the large commercial shops that also do welding/pipefitting.

You essentially buy the gas bottle and the initial fill, then exchange it later when it is empty, paying for the fill.

The larger Turbo Torch air-acetylene brazing tips are marginal for a B tank, and too big for the MC tank. Do check up on this.

The stuff that connects to the fuel source (regulator, hose, tips) probably costs the same, so it makes little sense to choose poorly. Plumbers and fitters are using more propane and large BBQ grill size fuel tanks due to the cost of acetylene and possibly storage regulations on jobsites. Acetylene can be quite dangerous if it isn't handled properly- like laying the bottles down and then using it- not good.

Stay Brite 8 is frowned upon for R-410A. I haven't been able to find a good reason why, excluding code requirements. The tensile strength of a Stay Brite 8 joint exceeds the tensile strength of a brazed joint, but the PSI rating of a Stay Brite joint goes down as the tube size increases. Stay Brite also requires the use of a flux, which can contaminate the system if improperly applied.

Fire codes require brazed joints in my area.

Brazing eliminates the flux requirement for HVAC work with copper to copper or common copper to brass joints, and one has the ability to fill minor imperfections at the joint.

The precharged, self piercing linesets/connections are garbage. They are not 37* flare connections like steel hydraulic line fittings.

Additionally, I do not understand how those can be purchased without an EPA card. In my area, some municipalities do not allow the flare connection on a mini-split- it must be a brazed joint.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

I just ran across a video where a guy made a suitable firebrick cavity to surround his joint and did some brazing with mapp gas. So I am pressing on with my plans to install my system. That and other ideas I saw here have gotten me back on the diy trail. Also a friend is going to let me play with his oxy-acetylene rig. Who knows, I might just buy a setup��

 

[theoldwizard1]

Propylene is mighty close to mapp. Similiar btu per cu ft as propane but 1000°F hotter.

The best info I can find for flame temps in air are

Propane 3670F
MAPP Pro 3730F
MAPP 5300F
Acetylene 5720F

The first 3 are actually blends and the amount of "blended" gas can vary a lot. Not sure what affect that has on the temp.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

The best info I can find for flame temps in air are

Propane 3670F
MAPP Pro 3730F
MAPP 5300F
Acetylene 5720F

The first 3 are actually blends and the amount of "blended" gas can vary a lot. Not sure what affect that has on the temp.

WOW the difference between MAP Pror and MAPP could .throw a guy off. In the 5300F for MAPP the old MAPP or the new propylene which is labeled MAPP?

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Maybe I am confusing terms. Is MAPP Pro the new MAPP, propylene that is? I have some yellow bottles labeled as MAPP, no Pro on the label, I bought two years ago at Lowe’s . Could they be original MAPP?

 

[Lelandwelds]

WOW the difference between MAP Pror and MAPP could .throw a guy off. In the 5300F for MAPP the old MAPP or the new propylene which is labeled MAPP?

You are over thinking this. Besides, it isn't so much flame temp as it is btu per cubic foot. Also, there is some argument over actual flame temps. ( Acetylene, for example, is quoted as 5720°F or 6300°F. ) LP gases are a blend of several because it is expensive and unnecessary to refine tof ultra high purity for fuel gases. (In the 1970s, it was even common to add wiffle dust or snake oil and invent your trademarked and marketed gas.)

In the real world, if you need more heat, you use a bigger tip.

 

[MoonRise]

If the label says MAPP, then it is MAPP (the old 'real' stuff).

If the label says MAP/Pro, then it is the new 'substitute'. Despite what the label implies, it is pretty much just propylene and as theoldwizard1 posted the gas burns only about 100 degrees hotter than plain old propane (in air).

Both MAPP (the 'old' real stuff) and the MAP/Pro (the 'new' stuff, since 2008 or so) come in a very similar looking yellow cylinder.

re: the little Oxy-fuel Bernzomatic torch

Those units have their uses, I have one from waaay back. This task is really not within its capabilities IMHO.

Drawbacks are the very expensive (for their size) 1.1 ft3 oxygen cylinders at $10+ per cylinder. Even a tiny 20 ft3 'real' oxygen cylinder will cost less for only the first 20 ft3 of oxygen even with 'buying' the empty cylinder!

little 1 ft3 cylinder x 20 ft3 @ $10/cylinder = $200+ for 20 ft3 of oxygen

20 ft3 cylinder @$90 purchase + one fill @ ~$35 = $125 for the first 20 ft3 of oxygen, after that it's just going to be the cost of a refill @ ~$35 for the next 20 ft3 of O2.

https://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/20-cf-welding-cylinder-for-oxygen

The torch is a PITA to light, very fussy about opening the fuel valve just right to successfully ignite the fuel. Then fuss with slowly adding oxygen, and then more fuel, and then more oxygen, and then more fuel until you have the flame just right. Then you can finally get to work (probably used up 1/4 of that little oxygen tank by then before you even get started working). I swear it took me about 5 minutes to get the dang torch lit and adjusted!

A 'real' oxy-acetylene torch I can light and have adjusted just the way I want in less then a minute.

For a 'regular' flame with that torch, the little cylinder will last only ~20 minutes.

A little Harris #0 welding tip (rated to weld 1/64" steel) will use oxygen at about 5 cfh maximum for heating/brazing, so the small 20 ft3 O2 tank will last 4 HOURS.

The Bernzomatic torch would use ~12 tiny cylinders for the same 4 hours of torch time, so would have used $120+ worth of O2.

The flame on the Bernzomatic torch is tiny. It makes the flame on the small Harris #0 tip look huge by comparison.

The flame can barely heat a 3/8" bolt head to red hot. The #0 tip can do that in a few seconds (way less than a minute), even with the bolt stuck inside a big chunk of steel/iron.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

You are over thinking this. Besides, it isn't so much flame temp as it is btu per cubic foot. Also, there is some argument over actual flame temps. ( Acetylene, for example, is quoted as 5720°F or 6300°F. ) LP gases are a blend of several because it is expensive and unnecessary to refine tof ultra high purity for fuel gases. (In the 1970s, it was even common to add wiffle dust or snake oil and invent your trademarked and marketed gas.)

In the real world, if you need more heat, you use a bigger tip.

Thanks and yes the wiggle dust and snake oil is pretty much why I haven’t managed to simply look up what I need and proceed.wish I knew how to get a bigger tip for the bernsomatic torch and I could manage. But that difference in temp stated for Mapp and Mapping Pro seemed to suggest a misunderstanding somewhere.

 

[MoonRise]

Replacement tip for more heat from a standard plumbers/homeowners type 'propane' torch?

Never seen such a thing.

You just replace the entire torch for a unit that has a higher heat output swirl torch (with the tip and all ).

The highest heat output 'standard' easily available (in stock around here at HomeDepot) propane torch that I have seen is the Bernzomatic TS8000 unit.

https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Hand-Torches/Instant-On-Off/TS8000

Decent unit, I have one. Not really sure even that one is up to brazing some decent sized copper HVAC lines.

And I really don't know WTF the product page is talking about when they say that the unit can be used for "light welding". No way does that torch or air-fuel mix get hot enough or intense enough for welding steel. Melting a small piece of aluminum into oblivion, sure. Soldering copper household sized (1/2" or 3/4" copper) piping, sure. Heating small stuff in the shop, sure. Melting a small piece of copper wire just because, sure. Welding, no way.

 

[Falcon67]

Something like the Bernzomatic Mapp/Oxy torch might do the job. It's a lot hotter than Mapp alone. Downside is that the oxy tank runs out pretty fast so it's only good for small quick jobs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-WK5500-Brazing-Torch-Kit-361487/300055608

Have one, worthless IMHO. Rather have a full oxy/propane rig.

https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products...-On-Off/TS8000
Have one of these heads, very nice. On the down side it's on an old "real MAPP" cylinder that is about empty. Have a Mapp/Pro cylinder spare and will likely be sad when the old one is done.

 

[MattT]

Ton of information here. Thanks to all. Everything said helped in some way. I researched Turbotorch and got to thinking that for around $200 I could have a handy torch for brazing jobs, but when I visited the only welding supplier in town and got the low down on acetylene $ and logistics I winced again. They serve well the guys that make a living in Hvac, farming and construction. So even though there are nice setups available for us lesser guys, I don’t find a friendly environment around here for casual use brazing. I am going to explore oxy propane and Mapp options that will do the job without the logistics and cost escalation.

Have you got a Tractor Supply anywhere close? They carry oxy and acetylene. Maybe not the cheapest but easy to deal with and DIYer friendly hours.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Have you got a Tractor Supply anywhere close? They carry oxy and acetylene. Maybe not the cheapest but easy to deal with and DIYer friendly hours.

After reading the voices of experience here I am headed to tractor supply. Moonrise and Falcon67 saved me a world of frustration with their liberal use of words designed to spare some poor soul a world of disappointment with the oxy-propane torch. I am sure it could be a real trick in some situations but not my world. Tractor supply is what I should have thought of immediately. The welding supply houses were trying to service me as a pro.

First I need to dig around, I may have another yellow MAPP bottle. That would do now that I know that MAPP PRO is the trade name for the propylene stuff.
I hope others can benefit from all the information that has been shared here.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First I need to dig around, I may have another yellow MAPP bottle.

I thought I had one more bottle of MAPP. It was MAP/Pro

 

[bobbyjean]

stay-brite 8 will do this job....as mentioned by other's....it is abit pricey but worth it as you can do multiple job's with it.
Can you get it in your area?

 

[Raisedonadeere]

stay-brite 8 will do this job....as mentioned by other's....it is abit pricey but worth it as you can do multiple job's with it.
Can you get it in your area?

I see amazon has it so if I don’t find it local I can just order. My house won’t be ready until late August so I have time to do some shopping. I went ahead and told my builder I won’t be having him do heat pump.