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The county will let me build 1200sq but...

elmech

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I'm thinking about pushing for more.. I have 28x45 flagged out in the yard now but I'm wondering if anyone here would suggest I go 30x40 instead?

I currently own (rent) an Import auto repair shop that's 4000sq.ft. and I'm thinking about selling it in a few years I've been in business 17 years there.

The reason I'm building for now is to put my own cars and bikes in there but eventually might work there like a mini retirement. I have enough room on one side of my house to build at least 2000sq and probably 3000 on the other side on a spare lot next to it. I'd have to join the lot to the homesite though because it's a separate build-able lot.

My first post here but have been reading the forum for a while..

Any thoughts?
 
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Stuart in MN

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It's possible to get a variance, but they usually don't grant them unless you can show a real need for the requested change. Also, going from 1200 square feet to 2 or 3 thousand is a big change...they may not approve a change that big.

It all depends on how they do it locally for you - if there's a board you have to go in front of to argue your case, or what. Find out what needs to be done for applying for the variance, and do exactly everything they ask and more.
 

6768rogues

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Most buildings and components are in 4 or 8 foot modules. 45 feet is an unusual dimension. Our town will allow buildings such as yours (I built 36x48) but they get nosey and want to know why it is being built. We cannot have auto, machinery or other repair shops in residential zones and the town makes that very clear when permitting buildings.
 

m32825

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During my experience with planning and zoning they told me that people who want an incremental increase, say 20%, have a good chance of being approved, but people who are going much larger have a much more difficult case. You can ask for whatever you want, here we have to pay $750 to try for a zoning variance, so it's not free.

-- Carl
 

Shawn S

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A couple of thoughts

I served on our local variance board and was chairman for a couple years. Every place is different, even neighboring districts. Some areas grant 90%+ of the requests, and some 1%. Do your research to see where you are.

You mention part is a separate buildable lot. Here you can add living quarters to the shop, and now you have a home which has drastically different size allowances. I know a few people who added living quarters to the top floor and they have shops/garages twice what are normally allowed.
 

James-W

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Around here they are pretty strict as to how big you can build something. It all depends on the local building department, some are very accommodating and some of rather **** about everything. If possible, find someone local who has gone thru this and see what they say about it. They could provide valuable insight into what can and what can't be done.
 

m32825

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Go down to planning and zoning and have a friendly discussion with them about what you would like to do. In general they want the additional tax revenue that comes from increased property value. They have to balance that against keeping property usage more or less in line with zoning and keeping your neighbors happy. Variances exist because there are good, legitimate reasons why people need something different from their zoning. Another angle they take into account is what's been granted to other properties around yours. If you're asking for something others have been granted it improves your chances.

No matter what you hear, keep the discussion friendly. The staff you're talking to will likely be doing the research to provide the zoning board with context for your hearing. Go in with diplomacy filters on high... :)

-- Carl
 
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elmech

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Go down to planning and zoning and have a friendly discussion with them about what you would like to do. In general they want the additional tax revenue that comes from increased property value. They have to balance that against keeping property usage more or less in line with zoning and keeping your neighbors happy. Variances exist because there are good, legitimate reasons why people need something different from their zoning. Another angle they take into account is what's been granted to other properties around yours. If you're asking for something others have been granted it improves your chances.

No matter what you hear, keep the discussion friendly. The staff you're talking to will likely be doing the research to provide the zoning board with context for your hearing. Go in with diplomacy filters on high... :)

-- Carl

I was more concerned with how big I should go. I can handle the county until they say no..

Great advice about not asking for too much though.

I'm new here and not savvy on how the forum works yet.
 
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elmech

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I've decided to build a commercial garage and need a few pointers.. I have the land now and some rough plans.. Should I start a new thread? My main problem is finding a decent metal building company in Florida.
 

driftpin

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I have worked as a planner processing variance requests in south Florida.

My advice is to try not to get a variance or variances. It's just an easier path to permitting when you don't have-to. In my jurisdiction, each part of the code from which you sought relief via a variance request was a separate fee. Say the fee is $2,000. You want a variance for a side setback of 10' instead of the required 15', that's $2,000. You want a variance for height of the building, another $2,000. You want a variance for the number of parking spaces the zoning code says you need for your occupancy and size of building, another $2,000. It can get very expensive, quickly. What are you going to do if you petition for three things, but only get one, and it's not the one you really-wanted to make your plan 'work' for you? Avoid the variances if at-all possible. Check with your local building, zoning, and engineering depts about the variances you hope to get and the procedure. The usual thing is that all registered property owners within a certain specified distance from your parcel get a certified mail notice of your variance plans, and you have to go to a planning and zoning board meeting, and then another meeting of the local government body, the city council, or the county if you are in an unincorporated area. It's a long, drawn-out process that could take a half-year or more. Your property will be posted with a legal notice of each meeting, there will be a legal notice published in the local newspaper, and there will be a notice posted at city hall, the village or township, or the county office building.

The first thing you need to do is to make sure that your zoning allows you to do everything you intend to do in the scope of operations at your occupancy. If you cannot for instance operate a motor vehicle repair business there, don't think you can tell them one thing, and do something else. That's a recipe for financial problems when you are issued a citation for operating whatever it is, but you don't have the zoning you need.

We'll assume you have the zoning for all aspects of work you intend to do. One of my friends built a new metal industrial occupancy not far from the Ft. Lauderdale International Airport. He can sell goods, repair motorcycles, and have storage. He also had waterfront property on the Dania Cutoff Canal, which goes to the Intracoastal Waterway, and the ocean. At one point he ran a smelting operation, melting down scrap aluminum motorcycle components into ingots, but he wasn't zoned for that, even though he had an industrial zoning. He had to stop.

It might be more-organized for you to begin another thread. I suggest you find a local architect to help you with the work you propose to do. You're going to need engineered plans for drainage and water retention, a lighting plan, a landscape plan, a signage plan, a parking plan, and a site plan. That's besides the building plans, and they all need to be sealed by a P.E. An architect will be able to guide you through the process. If you were an experienced G.C. you could probably do it yourself, because you would already have the connections, but I suspect you don't. The money you spend on a design professional will result in less mistakes, a smoother path to issuance of your permits, and better oversight of the work. I can get you a referral on the metal building manufacturer my friend used, the building went up with no issues, it's been awhile, and it's holding up well.
 

Tinkerman66

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What's this getting permission to build on your own property ****? Glad I don't live in any of those places.
 

Augus7us

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I saw this thread was actually stared last year. When you say you got the land now, does that mean you can build bigger without the variance now?

Also by "commercial" are you meaning a different type (like red iron instead of post frame) of building or you want to run a business out of it (i.e. not a residential hobby shop)?
 

ng8264723

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I agree with Tinker man. I own 30 acres in MA. It is a 100 year old farm. I wanted to build on an area that had a building years ago. There was an old wall that has been there for 100 years. The building inspector said no. I eventually just built it anyway without a permit. The heck with him!
 
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elmech

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I'm sorry I didn't clarify I bought a commercial lot .6 acre and I'm wanting to develop it and move my business there.. my prior plan was to semi retire and work at my house but decided it was a big mistake. My current plan is 3600 sqft when I get to my computer I'll post a picture of the rough plan.
 

driftpin

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Sounds like a better idea than trying to work out of the house, which you'll probably have a tough time doing.

Ask for a 'zoning determination letter' from planning & zoning, to ensure that you'll be able to do what you intend to do at that location. Be specific, be complete, with your proposed scope of operations.

Here is the Florida manufacturer of the metal building my friend got built (post #11). I spoke with the G.C. of the job today to get you the info. The building is about 11,000 sq. ft.
http://www.deansteelbuildings.com/

This is an important one for us in Florida:
http://www.deansteelbuildings.com/products/panels/miami-dade-county-product-approval/
 
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elmech

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Sounds like a better idea than trying to work out of the house, which you'll probably have a tough time doing.

Ask for a 'zoning determination letter' from planning & zoning, to ensure that you'll be able to do what you intend to do at that location. Be specific, be complete, with your proposed scope of operations.

Here is the Florida manufacturer of the metal building my friend got built (post #11). I spoke with the G.C. of the job today to get you the info.
http://www.deansteelbuildings.com/

This is an important one for us in Florida:
http://www.deansteelbuildings.com/products/panels/miami-dade-county-product-approval/

Thanks man I'll get in touch with them. I had a meeting with the county already and have an architect/ civil engineer working the details out.
 
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elmech

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Well, the civil engineer just told me his bill is going to be around 20k. That kinda seems like a lot to me for .6 acre drawing and that doesn't my architect.
 

Falcon67

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What's this getting permission to build on your own property ****? Glad I don't live in any of those places.

You don't show your location but chances are you do live in one of those places. You may just not know it. There are basic building codes that apply just about everywhere.

Variance - you would need to show "hardship". To do that, look around. All you need to do is find other buildings larger than the stated limits that exist close by. If you find them, then you have a straight shot at approval. First car port on the block gets the resistance, after the one gets approved the rest are not contested because the precedent is set. Same with buildings. You can't build an accessory building on a lot without a primary here. Or pretty much in any city, that's part of basic city codes used all over. But because others already did in several locations, and I took that info to the board, the variance was granted and approved by the council. The basic argument is "They got to do it, why can't I."
 

driftpin

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The building manufacturer should be able to give you sealed drawings meeting the HVHZ (high-velocity hurricane zone) rating you probably need in coastal Florida.

The P.E. cost for the drawings for all the things listed in #11 may-not be far-off the mark. You could shop-around, seeing if you could find a better deal, but sometimes doing things right the first time, for more-money, is going to be faster than trying to squeeze-by on everything, with cost as the overriding factor. If that included some-sort of project management fee, that might not be far-off the mark. You can access local building dept. records of projects and get names of P.E.'s who have successfully-submitted plans for other local projects, or whose work is on the documents approved by/for the jurisdiction and contact them.

I don't think I would call it "cheap" to develop a Florida commercial/industrial project. We probably have the strongest building code in the country.
 
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driftpin

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You don't show your location but chances are you do live in one of those places. You may just not know it. There are basic building codes that apply just about everywhere.

Variance - you would need to show "hardship". To do that, look around. All you need to do is find other buildings larger than the stated limits that exist close by. If you find them, then you have a straight shot at approval. First car port on the block gets the resistance, after the one gets approved the rest are not contested because the precedent is set. Same with buildings. You can't build an accessory building on a lot without a primary here. Or pretty much in any city, that's part of basic city codes used all over. But because others already did in several locations, and I took that info to the board, the variance was granted and approved by the council. The basic argument is "They got to do it, why can't I.

You would like to think that's how it is, but that's often not the case. In the first, the AHJ can say/do whatever they want, and you have to go through the entire procedure to apply for the variance, be turned-down, appeal the turn-down, which usually will require a two-meeting local governmental body public meeting (city commission, city council, etc), before you can turn to the courts. At that point, you've probably spent $10,000 to get turned-down. You will always get some civic gadfly who will get-up and speak about, "why do we have zoning regulations if we're going to ignore them by giving this petitioner an exception?" A new code cycle occurs and then the governing body says, "the new code is more-restrictive, we cannot allow this."

Sometimes the AHJ makes a mistake. Once it's discovered, they can say, "we're not going to repeat that!" Here in south Florida I had an acquaintance who applied-for and had-built a steel building for their class A motor coach, it went through the process, and was finaled. Someone didn't like it after the fact, and was able to initiate a process where the building permit (certificate of completion) was revoked, and the property owner had to demo the structure! This was one of the most politically-powerful families in the community, going-back generations, sitting on the board of probably the oldest bank, etc. I don't recall the exact reason for the revocation/demo, but it happened.

Maybe where a particular individual lives, things are different, but I've participated in variance hearings as a planner, and you're far-better-off to not have to seek a variance, from what I've seen, as a homeowner, or a small-business owner in south Florida.

The only exception is if the variance is for a very minor exception to the code, something like a foot-or-two needed because of an existing previously-built structure, and you're trying to fit-in an emergency generator in-proximity to a plot boundary, and you have a disabled family member who depends upon 24-hour electricity to power their medical equipment, or other exigent circumstances.
 
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elmech

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Driftpin, The only thing they're doing is a sealed drainage plan on .6 acre that's out of the flood zone. My Architect is doing the rest of it. I can email you or anyone who would like to see my notes from the county. I'm not seeing 20k in work there..
 

driftpin

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Sometimes they will throw a big number at someone, to see if the 'fish-bite,' which I think is almost a discouragement effort. If someone wants to pay that, they'll be happy to take the work. Sounds like that may be the case. What does your architect have to suggest, I'm sure you've asked?


Driftpin, The only thing they're doing is a sealed drainage plan on .6 acre that's out of the flood zone. My Architect is doing the rest of it. I can email you or anyone who would like to see my notes from the county. I'm not seeing 20k in work there..
 

56vette461

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Sorry to hear your pain with government agencies. You are almost as messed up as we are in California. Depending on the county you live in, the rules get really crazy. One county will cost up to $75K for the plan review, engineering calculations and permits just to start.
 
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elmech

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Sometimes they will throw a big number at someone, to see if the 'fish-bite,' which I think is almost a discouragement effort. If someone wants to pay that, they'll be happy to take the work. Sounds like that may be the case. What does your architect have to suggest, I'm sure you've asked?

The architect thinks it's crazy but he's kinda retired and may not be up with current pricing maybe. My friend is the purchasing manager at a luxury home builder in Tampa he told me he's never seen a civil plan cost more than 5k and they average 2k so I called his civil he wants 28k.

I also posted the job on upwork it's a freelancers website.
 

Farmall450

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I agree with Tinker man. I own 30 acres in MA. It is a 100 year old farm. I wanted to build on an area that had a building years ago. There was an old wall that has been there for 100 years. The building inspector said no. I eventually just built it anyway without a permit. The heck with him!

Amen
I thought this was 'murica! :beer:
 

GMCGarage

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I agree with Tinker man. I own 30 acres in MA. It is a 100 year old farm. I wanted to build on an area that had a building years ago. There was an old wall that has been there for 100 years. The building inspector said no. I eventually just built it anyway without a permit. The heck with him!

Why did they say no?? What did they say when you built anyway?
 

Homerr

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elmech, sounds like driftpin is giving you great advice.

$20k does seem high. I'm in the opposite corner of the country and things are crazy here and civil and structural engineers are the choke point and sometime throw out a 'go away' price to see how serious someone is.
 
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elmech

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elmech, sounds like driftpin is giving you great advice.

$20k does seem high. I'm in the opposite corner of the country and things are crazy here and civil and structural engineers are the choke point and sometime throw out a 'go away' price to see how serious someone is.

Yes he is and I'm very grateful for it.

At least a couple I called said they were too busy I respect that but if I'm getting "go away" prices from places my people deal with on the regular it kinda pisses me off.

I got another quote @22,500 and it included site design and permitting only.

9k for permitting... Not the fees just for applying for them.
 
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Moose97

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Interesting how varied the process can be in different places. In Texas building codes and zoning ordinances are governed by municipalities. If you live outside the corporate limits of a municipality or it's ETJ, then you are generally free to do as you wish.
Counties might require a building permit for residential but it is usually just a means to be aware of additions for taxing purposes. There are no enforcement people (inspectors) who come out to check up on things. Some counties have more stringent standards for Commercial but I've never seen zoning applied to a county job.
The state of Texas does adopt official codes (building, electric, plumbing, etc.) but again there is no enforcement arm.

About a dozen years ago I built my mother a home on our property out in the county. I did get a permit from the county. $75.00. No plans submitted and no inspections. I have built a 1728 sq.ft barn, a 320 sq. ft. building and a loafing shed all on my property in the county and have never pulled a permit for any of it.
 
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elmech

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Interesting how varied the process can be in different places. In Texas building codes and zoning ordinances are governed by municipalities. If you live outside the corporate limits of a municipality or it's ETJ, then you are generally free to do as you wish.
Counties might require a building permit for residential but it is usually just a means to be aware of additions for taxing purposes. There are no enforcement people (inspectors) who come out to check up on things. Some counties have more stringent standards for Commercial but I've never seen zoning applied to a county job.
The state of Texas does adopt official codes (building, electric, plumbing, etc.) but again there is no enforcement arm.

About a dozen years ago I built my mother a home on our property out in the county. I did get a permit from the county. $75.00. No plans submitted and no inspections. I have built a 1728 sq.ft barn, a 320 sq. ft. building and a loafing shed all on my property in the county and have never pulled a permit for any of it.

If it isn't bad already.. The plan review fee from the county... Just to review the plans is $7,000.
 

mygarageone

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Geez i’m Glad I live in the woods ( country ) all I had to do was submit a set of plans and lot plan for approval and soil erosion paper work .. Told the zoning guy I might build it bigger than shown . He said as long as your set backs are in line go for it but bring in a revised drawing .Then all I needed was the building dept approval , there only restriction , if it’s over 12’ high I needed engineered plans.

All this BS with city demands **** . Glad I don’t have to with that ****.
 

mygarageone

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And most of the time all this BS is for tax purposes , they want to make sure your taxed for that building don’t ya know .
My wife is a tax assessor , we have some high disagreements about this stuff. But in the end she has to do what the might state tells her to do.
Like if you have a dishwasher you pay more , if you have a boiler rather than a furnace you pay more , if you have a cobble stone opposed to concrete drive you pay more , if you have log side rather than vinyl you pay more . The tax man comith and you will pay !
 

Homerr

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Building costs money.

Those of you out in the country with limited or no building codes are relatively rare in the larger building economy. Municipalities do have overhead expenses for sure, but higher density and volume of building requires much more planning for a city - making sure sewer, water, gas, electricity can supply enough capacity - and these capital improvements are frequently addressed with impact fees.

A house I drew was just permitted an upscale suburb of Seattle and the fees were over $63k. Living in incorporated areas is always more expensive. Commercial development is also higher.

I'd say go in to a project with open expectations about what it will cost and decide if it's for you to build, or not, as you research it. If you start with a mindset of "But a guy on the internet said permits were $75" when trying to build in an incorporated area it's gonna be all downhill from there.
 

driftpin

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I tore-down a single family dwelling and would have had to get an approved plan to replace it within 18 months of the demo being finaled, for-which I had to do filling/grading, and replacement of turf, if I wanted to avoid paying impact fees. Not-sure what they are now, but 10 years ago, they raised them to 3X what they were.

I just checked, a 4-br is now $12,934 impact fee. Broward Co. FL (Ft. Lauderdale metro area)
 

gte718p

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Yes he is and I'm very grateful for it.

At least a couple I called said they were too busy I respect that but if I'm getting "go away" prices from places my people deal with on the regular it kinda pisses me off.

I got another quote @22,500 and it included site design and permitting only.

9k for permitting... Not the fees just for applying for them.

I'm thinking that if you have three or for quotes for 20K+ that is not the go away price, but the going rate.
 
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elmech

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I'm thinking that if you have three or for quotes for 20K+ that is not the go away price, but the going rate.

I was starting to think that as well but I got one yesterday for 1k from a local engineer that works from home and his stamp is current. Another guy on upwork.com is local he's around 1k also.
 

Falcon67

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Maybe where a particular individual lives, things are different, but I've participated in variance hearings as a planner, and you're far-better-off to not have to seek a variance, from what I've seen, as a homeowner, or a small-business owner in south Florida.

Just backs up that what gets posted here on certain "legal" type topics is usually meaningless unless it's from the OPs back yard. Here a building permit is $50, cost to request a variance is zero, inspections are $100 for foundation and $100 for framing/electric - and the city pays for the inspections.

And I've seen plenty of it both ways - zoning recommends "no" to the council, homeowner states case to council, zoning recommendation over ridden. It's a case-by-case thing. But typically in Texas, of you ask for something your neighbor (or neighbors) already has, you are likely going to get it.
 

driftpin

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I just checked the City of Tarpon Springs FL site, the cost for a variance is $250 per item. http://www.ctsfl.us/index_htm_files/VarianceRequestApplication.pdf

That's pretty-reasonable, for the cost. The last place I worked in south Florida as a planner is $1031/item. That can get expensive quickly. A site plan review is $1064. Building plans are separate.
 
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