Breaker Panel, What are my options?

[corvettecrazy]

Hello! I would like to start with saying that I plan to have this done by an electrician. At the same time I would like understand different alternatives I have.

I would like to add the following:
-Interlock for generator (Need 240V for the well pump)
-Dedicated circuit (240V?) in the garage for a welder
-Future AC in the house
-Other future upgrades (compressor, secondary heater, etc)

Current panel (Murray LC124DS) with small sub-panel (Murray LW002GR) below it.

Sub panel

I'm not sure if it helps determine a path going forward but a shot of the inside

As you can see they are both full. I can re-purpose 1 breaker as there is no longer a pool in the backyard, but that doesn't really help.

Incoming wire appears to be 2ga Alum. Which from my research is 100A current limit. Will need to work with the power company to upgrade?

My initial thought was to install a new 200A panel and make the current 100A panel a sub panel. This would allow for an interlock on the 200A, reduce the amount of re-wiring, and allow for future expansion. I would think the current sub panel breakers would be moved into the new panel. The alternative would be remove this panel and place a 200A panel in its place.

Thoughts from those who are more experienced on how to complete the outlined goals?

Thanks in advance!

 

[MattT]

Keeping the existing panel as a sub sounds like a good, cost effective, plan.

Siting the new main is what you need to think some more on. Sounds like your new needs are outside or in the garage. Replacing your meter base with a meter/service panel combo would be a good solution if it's on the right side of the house for the generator and A/C. Then put another sub panel in the garage.

Putting the new main in the garage might also work. All depends on your property layout.

 

[mike93lx]

don't upgrade to 200a service because you think you need it. Upgrade because the load calcs say you need it.

100A goes a long way, you may not need more. if you haven't priced it yet, you might be surprised at how expensive a service upgrade is.

your power company typically won't be involved, besides pulling the meter so the work can be done. The aerial or underground feeder will normally not be changed.

if you don't actually need a service upgrade, replacing your existing sub with a new one would give the expansion that you are looking for.

if you do need a service upgrade, then I agree with making the current panel a sub and adding a new main.

 

[corvettecrazy]

Thank you for the replies! Figures I would forget an important aspect in the process...location. Everything is pretty close to each other. Generator hookup could be at the same corner of the house. See below.

Mike, do you have any links or references as to how to do the load calculations?
I have not priced it yet, what ballpark numbers should I be aware of for a service upgrade? Just swapping the sub panel for a different one doesn't allow for a generator interlock to be added easily, which would be one of the goals.

 

[mike93lx]

Thank you for the replies! Figures I would forget an important aspect in the process...location. Everything is pretty close to each other. Generator hookup could be at the same corner of the house. See below.

Mike, do you have any links or references as to how to do the load calculations?
I have not priced it yet, what ballpark numbers should I be aware of for a service upgrade? Just swapping the sub panel for a different one doesn't allow for a generator interlock to be added easily, which would be one of the goals.

Can't help on the load calc, sorry. Try some googling.

Rates will depend on your area, but when i first considered an upgrade, it was north of 2k. I ended up sticking with 100a and just put a new panel in. I did recently install a new riser, meter pan, backer board and ground ties to the plumbing... That cost 1600

If you swap the sub, move two circuits to it and put the interlock in the main. I would also move two more and install a whole home surge protector.

 

[Fasthotrod]

Good morning,

The one thing I didn't see mentioned was a budget... and to me, this is the most important part because we can likely come up with a bunch of solutions but some may not work for you because of the cost.

Looking at your pics was a great help... the location of the meter relative to the main panel looks like this won't be terrible to upgrade. There appears to be ample wall space, too... so that's good.

When you mention an interlock for a generator hookup, I assume you mean you want to hook up your portable 240 VAC generator using a cord? There would be a box outside under the meter for the generator hookup, perhaps like this:

...and an interlock kit in the main panel that forces you to turn off your main before you can close the generator breaker? You aren't looking for a whole house generator with a transfer switch that is permanently mounted, right?

Looking at your Murray main panel, it appears to be a 24-breaker model and you mentioned that you had the sub panel with four additional circuits. That's likely fed from a two-pole breaker in the main, so my assumption is that you have 26 total circuits, minus the pool? Then we need to add space for the future loads, account for the generator breaker (two positions) and we're good?

The first question I would ask is, can you get any tandem breakers for your Murray panel? If so, then the most cost effective solution would likely be to use Tandem breakers. Tandem breakers are basically two breakers in a single position in the panel. So instead of a single breaker in one position, like this:

...you could have two breakers in one position, like this:

They also have multiple tandem breakers, so if you needed a 240 VAC 30A breaker as well as two 120 VAC 20A breakers, you can fit them in two positions like this:

This would allow you to remove some of the older single breakers and install some tandem breakers, and move the circuits over to free up some positions in your panel and even remove the sub-panel. The thing you will want to look out for is that the neutral and ground bars have enough positions for the amount of circuits that you want to add. You might be able to add an additional ground bar and move some grounds from the neutral bars over, but it really depends on the panel layout. An electrician can look at it for you and should be able to tell you what is available for your panel.

I would also ask about the availability of the generator interlock device... I've seen a few out there, but many of them are specific to a panel so they may be hard to find. I'd look to see if I could get that first, then go from there. I don't know if this one will work for you or not?

https://www.natramelec.com/genswitch/gs/gs1/gs1.htm

All of that being said, I think the best way to do this would be to spend a little more money and upgrade the main panel to a Square D Homeline 100A Main panel with 30 positions - 60 circuits. The model number is HOM3060M100PC and you can probably find it at your local home improvement stores easily enough.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...oad-Center-with-Cover-HOM3060M100PC/204836371

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center/50311153

This panel has a kit direct from Square D for a generator interlock: HOMCRBGK1C. You can get it from Home Depot, or even on Amazon:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...-Generator-Interlock-Kit-HOMCRBGK1C/205930362

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0764KM4L4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

So now your 30-position panel has 28 usable positions after we add the generator interlock, which should cover everything you have now as well as some future expansion. You can use single position breakers or tandem breakers in this panel, which is how you can pull 60 circuits out of 30 positions... but with the interlock in place, you'll be 'limited' to 56 circuits instead.

If you needed to add an additional ground bar, it's also available for less than $10:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...++cn:{0:0}++pk23gta+{productkey}+qu:{pk23gta}

This would require a lot more work, as well as an extended outage at your house to disconnect power, remove the old panel and install the new panel... but you would have a bit more flexibility with the number of additional circuits you could have later down the road.

Hope this helps... good luck with your decision.

Mark

 

[corvettecrazy]

Mark, thank you for the reply. I did not mention budget because I am willing to spend/save more to do it correctly and hopefully only have to think about the overall setup once. If the best way means spending more now to replace the entire panel with a larger one, so be it.

Yes the plan would be a main interlock with an outdoor receptical and cord for a portable generator.

The reason I didn't talk about the tandem breakers is that my understanding of the panel diagram is that my current panel is not designed to accept them. See the attached image.(I don't know why garage journal made it so small) It lacks the two breakers to a single slot on the diagram. Seems like the way to go without replacing the whole panel is either a larger sub or making my current main a sub.

Mike, I like the whole house surge idea, especially if it fits right into the panel.

Thank you guys!

 

[Fasthotrod]

Mark, thank you for the reply.

You're welcome.

I did not mention budget because I am willing to spend/save more to do it correctly and hopefully only have to think about the overall setup once. If the best way means spending more now to replace the entire panel with a larger one, so be it.

Same here... I'm currently building a shop and I'm going to do it right from the start. I'm relocating the service feed from the house to the shop, then making my house a sub-panel. I bought a new meter/main panel, a 40 position/80 circuit 200A panel for the shop, etc... I figured if I'm going to do it, do it right.

Yes the plan would be a main interlock with an outdoor receptical and cord for a portable generator.

Good deal. That should be an easy task provided you get the generator interlock kit for the panel.

The reason I didn't talk about the tandem breakers is that my understanding of the panel diagram is that my current panel is not designed to accept them. See the attached image.(I don't know why garage journal made it so small) It lacks the two breakers to a single slot on the diagram.

Hummm... I saw the decal, but I didn't see anything that specifically said what breakers were allowed/recommended by Murray. I'd have to do some research, but I'd bet there is some documentation out there that talks about the panel and what it originally came with, and what options were available from the factory at the time it was manufactured. Maybe they were an option but not specifically described on that tag? Might be worth a look... I found this during a quick Google search:

http://www.wearebreakers.com/files/LC124DS.pdf

I also found this compatibility list of Eaton replacement circuit breakers, which you may find useful:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...0304001e.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2cdz_7XtwozmtM1xsFdcYz

Seems like the way to go without replacing the whole panel is either a larger sub or making my current main a sub.

A bigger sub-panel would certainly work... it would reduce the overall amount of labor required but it wouldn't address the generator interlock, so we'd have to find one that fit your existing panel.

If you were to try and make your existing panel a sub-panel, you would have to remove the neutral/ground bond in that panel and isolate all of the neutrals from the grounds. You can see that the electrician that wired your panel tied the neutrals and grounds on both bars on the left and right in your panel.

Typically on a house panel like that, there is one isolated neutral bar connection and one ground bar connection, or two isolated bars and a small bonding jumper tied to the metal can/box. Because it's the Service Entrance, the neutral/ground is bonded together there so electricians will simply tie the individual circuit neutrals and grounds to the bars on the left and right side. It's really easy when installing it, but makes it a pain in the **** if you ever decide to make it a sub panel. You'd basically need to remove the grounds from the existing bars and make sure the bars are isolated, then just add in separate ground bars screwed into the backplane of the can and land the grounds.

Mike, I like the whole house surge idea, especially if it fits right into the panel.

It's a great option, no doubt... the one for my panel is about $50-$60 on Amazon. I believe that the Square D Homeline panel I recommended above uses the same one as mine... more info here:

https://www.schneider-electric.us/e...-surgebreaker-surge-protective-device-(spd)/#

Best regards,

Mark

 

[b-boy]

don't upgrade to 200a service because you think you need it. Upgrade because the load calcs say you need it.

100A goes a long way, you may not need more. if you haven't priced it yet, you might be surprised at how expensive a service upgrade is.

your power company typically won't be involved, besides pulling the meter so the work can be done. The aerial or underground feeder will normally not be changed.

If you don't actually need a service upgrade, replacing your existing sub with a new one would give the expansion that you are looking for.

if you do need a service upgrade, then I agree with making the current panel a sub and adding a new main.

A friend of mine just did this. He paid $2200.

His access was a lot more complicated than yours. His service lines were above ground. The new cable was run through the roof and into his basement.

I'm in Buffalo, NY.

 

[Bretny]

You should really talk to an electrician.
When you replace your main pannel usualy a sub pannel isnt needed. They do sell 200a pannels that will have more than enough spots for all your current anf future loads.

Get a price quote for everything.
Adding a sub pannel
Changing service to 200a with more breaker spots.

 

[corvettecrazy]

Putting this here so people have a reference if they ever find this thread in a search.

I got 3 quotes from different places.
adding a new panel and making the current a sub ~$2000
Upgrading the current panel to 200A (Including the service upgrade) I received 2 quotes on. The first was ~$2800 and the second was ~$5600. Both for a 40/80 panel.

Having the below installed at the same time came to about $1000 more.
-120 and 240 outlet installed in the basement. (Washer and dryer)
-Running larger conduit to the basement for future runs
-interlock
-generator outlet on the outside of the house
-whole house surge
-alarm to let you know when the power comes back on.