Opinions on Rheem and VS vs Non-VS

[brentmc]

I have priced and researched alot of heat pumps and am leaning towards either a:

Rheem RP1430 (14 SEER) with a VS air handler

or

a RP1530 (15.5 SEER) with standard air handler (not VS).

The contractor is recommending the RP1530 with standard air handler over the RP1430 with a VS air handler

He says the non-VS 15 SEER is a overall better value (but $900 more) because there is less to break and they are cheaper to repair.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

 

[Done That]

Are you sure the rp1430 is VS? Nothing I see online supports that, and 14 seer is a low rating point for a split system heat pump to be variable speed.

 

[brentmc]

Are you sure the rp1430 is VS? Nothing I see online supports that, and 14 seer is a low rating point for a split system heat pump to be variable speed.

Oops--you are right--the Air handler is VS, not the condenser.

Let me edit the original post

 

[Done That]

Air Handler model number would help, but I would hope or should say want the "standard" air handler to at least have an ECMx (X13) blower motor (not base PSC) for efficiency.

I suspect the payback for the extra $900 will be acceptable with the improved efficiency of 15.5 SEER over 14.0 over normal expected equipment lifetime.

In terms of complexity/warranty...these units at a minimum are going to be 5 years, and most likely 10 years on parts...so I would not sweat that too much. I do understand the argument to avoid true ECM VS blowers as they can be pricey to replace, but these days they are pretty robust. The rest of the controls etc between the units are pretty much the same, so it's really just a "gamble" on the potential future cost of the motor replacement.

 

[brentmc]

Here are the specifics; I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest, but the best value/comfort:

$5,000 installed with new thermostat: Rheem (AHRI 7489175) 2 1/2 Ton, 14 SEER, Classic Series, RP1430AJ/RH1T3617 Heat Pump Split System (Standard air handler)

$5650 installed with new thermostat: Rheem (AHRI 7489176) 2 1/2 Ton, 14 SEER, Classic Series, RP1430AJ/RH1V3617STAN Heat Pump Split System (This is the VS air handler)

$5,900 installed with new thermostat: RHEEM RP1530BJ1/RH1T3617STAN (Standard Air handler)

 

[Done That]

RH1T uses and ECMx blower, so that's goodness.

Main thing you gain going to RH1V is true VS...airflow ramping profiles and On Demand Dehum where it will run the blower a bit slower if you have a thermostat that will generate a duhum demand. So if you are in an area where dehumidification is important...it might justify the jump.

I'm not aware of any reason you could'nt ask for the RP1530 outdoor unit to be paired with the RH1T VS Air Handler, but am certainly not super versed in all Rheem system parts and matches....but you could certainly at least ask your guy.

 

[PWC Repair]

Yes, you can pair up the RP15 series with the RH1T air handler for 15 SEER and still register for the 10 year parts warranty. That's how most of my contractors do it.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Check out the T6 Honeywell thermostat line the new WI-FI models are outstanding the the options that you can set from your smart phone. Also Honeywell sends out an energy comparison each month on how many hours heating/cooling each month and compares it to the history of your unit. Also they have geo-tracking that uses the phones GPS to turn the system to standby if you leave the area and you get to define the area as a radius around your house. This feature lets the system to to the away settings to save energy when you leave for vacations etc. and don't set the thermostat yourself. By standby I mean away settings to save money for instance occupied might have summer temp of 72 but away could be 82. I bought two and love them for the control they give from anywhere your phone works.

 

[kneeman]

I'd run away from Rheem and Ruud like a tornado was chasing me.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I had several bad experiences with Rheem, this was circa mid 2000's.

Maybe just bad luck but several different units had problems to the point I don't want to buy the brand again.

I'm sure though everyone has a story for every brand.

 

[chip6763]

Rheem is as good as anything else out there if it is put in properly. If your ductwork isn't sized properly with too much static it will kill a vs blower, once out of warranty they are expensive to replace. Just an fyi.

 

[Bills Tools]

I'd run away from Rheem and Ruud like a tornado was chasing me.

The Rheem/ RUUD / Weather King units are like tanks that run forever. Most of them operate at a slightly lower suction pressure and due to this end up overcharged. This is the only problem I have with Rheem. I prefers Lennox or even Coleman yet put a Rheem in 2013 into my mom’s house replacing an old brown round carrier from the 80’s. Haven’t had any problems with the unit. I had no choice though since I had to find an air handler with the least height to fit into attic. I would of installed a Lennox XC21036 since I had a condenser sitting around that flooded in hurricane Irene.

 

[yeldogt]

The VS air handlers are worth the money -- make sure you get the proper thermostat to control it properly for humidity.

most of the parts warranties are fairly long today -- there has been much improvement ... making sure you don't have restricted ductwork is important with any new system. You want good flow over the coil .. and not be overworking the motor

 

[Jackfre]

The quality of the duct system is key with any variable speed system. A pressure test on the system with associated repairs would be money well spent. Remember, between all the technology the manuf can offer and your comfort is the delivery system. It is a big deal.

 

[bobbyjean]

Go Heil....

 

[bonneyman]

I'd run away from Rheem and Ruud like a tornado was chasing me.

^^^^What he said.

 

[danski0224]

The quality of the duct system is key with any variable speed system. A pressure test on the system with associated repairs would be money well spent. Remember, between all the technology the manuf can offer and your comfort is the delivery system. It is a big deal.

This.

If the ductwork is not up to snuff (capable of supporting the proper airflow WITH good design, and sealed- any flex to duct and boot to ceiling too), the variable speed blowers will not be able to deliver the claimed performance or energy savings.

A variable speed fan is capable of pushing through moderately poor ductwork, but energy usage will go up and blower motor life will be shortened.

The air filter also needs to be designed in.

 

[danski0224]

I do understand the argument to avoid true ECM VS blowers as they can be pricey to replace, but these days they are pretty robust. The rest of the controls etc between the units are pretty much the same, so it's really just a "gamble" on the potential future cost of the motor replacement.

Lotsa BS as far as durability goes.

A VS motor is essentially a 3 phase design with much better bearings than a standard PSC motor.

The rest of the system and air filter is what causes the failures of VS motors.

A VS motor will (attempt) to deliver the selected airflow parameters. Where a standard blower motor or even a standard ECM slows down due to static pressure restriction, a VS motor will spin up faster to maintain the set airflow (which is determined by RPM).

Bad ductwork or flex monsters, restrictive evaporator coils and bad air filters (typically all of these in one installation) is what kills VS motors.

I have yet to see residential equipment with a fan rated for more than 0.50" w.c. TESP, yet it is common for an install to measure 1.0" w.c. TESP or more. Manufacturers could solve many install issues by offering a 0.80" w.c fan.

Most manufacturers offer "oversized" coils with lower airflow restriction (typically an xxxx037 number instead of an xxxx036 for example), but they are physically larger, more expensive and sometimes the suppliers do not stock them.

The problem is not the VS motor.

 

[Done That]

Lotsa BS as far as durability goes.

A VS motor is essentially a 3 phase design with much better bearings than a standard PSC motor.

And an end bell full of electronic controls that can fail.

I agree that airflow/ductwork is a killer.

 

[danski0224]

And an end bell full of electronic controls that can fail.

That's lame too.

Electronics are in almost everything these days, I think most of the bugs have been worked out.

Less electronics in a VS motor than a mini-split...

Nothing wrong with adding a surge protection device, though.

 

[Gila Monster]

Lotsa BS as far as durability goes.

A VS motor is essentially a 3 phase design with much better bearings than a standard PSC motor.

The rest of the system and air filter is what causes the failures of VS motors.

A VS motor will (attempt) to deliver the selected airflow parameters. Where a standard blower motor or even a standard ECM slows down due to static pressure restriction, a VS motor will spin up faster to maintain the set airflow (which is determined by RPM).

Bad ductwork or flex monsters, restrictive evaporator coils and bad air filters (typically all of these in one installation) is what kills VS motors.

I have yet to see residential equipment with a fan rated for more than 0.50" w.c. TESP, yet it is common for an install to measure 1.0" w.c. TESP or more. Manufacturers could solve many install issues by offering a 0.80" w.c fan.

Most manufacturers offer "oversized" coils with lower airflow restriction (typically an xxxx037 number instead of an xxxx036 for example), but they are physically larger, more expensive and sometimes the suppliers do not stock them.

The problem is not the VS motor.

Why aren't technicians doing a better job making sure the variable speed systems work with a home's ductwork?

 

[danski0224]

Why aren't technicians doing a better job making sure the variable speed systems work with a home's ductwork?

The most common reason boils down to the customer doesn't want to pay.

It is quite difficult to "sell" something that can't be seen- air, and explanations lasting more than 20 seconds or so result in glazed eyes. From the customers perspective, the HVAC system makes hot or cold air, so what is the problem?

Comfort cooling and heating uses over 50% of the dollars spent on energy annually, but getting a homeowner to fix it is an issue.

The equipment to measure airflow isn't cheap, and it takes time, and again comes down to being paid for services rendered.

Then, if the system is diagnosed, facilitating the repairs ranges from difficult to impossible when stuff is buried behind walls and ceilings. A bad ductwork install typically stems from a builder not wanting to pay for it to be done right, then the problems are passed to the mortgage holder. Some of the new energy codes are addressing these issues, but a "sealed" ductwork system has no guidelines for airflow... in my area, a ComEd Trade Ally really only has proper insurance- there are NO stipulations to ensure that the "energy efficient" system is actually installed properly.

Then the mortgage holder is "moving soon" and therefore doesn't want to spend the money.

Of course, many residential companies are performance based pay, so there is no time to fix, only to sell or upsell.

 

[Gila Monster]

The most common reason boils down to the customer doesn't want to pay.

It is quite difficult to "sell" something that can't be seen- air, and explanations lasting more than 20 seconds or so result in glazed eyes. From the customers perspective, the HVAC system makes hot or cold air, so what is the problem?

Comfort cooling and heating uses over 50% of the dollars spent on energy annually, but getting a homeowner to fix it is an issue.

The equipment to measure airflow isn't cheap, and it takes time, and again comes down to being paid for services rendered.

Then, if the system is diagnosed, facilitating the repairs ranges from difficult to impossible when stuff is buried behind walls and ceilings. A bad ductwork install typically stems from a builder not wanting to pay for it to be done right, then the problems are passed to the mortgage holder. Then the mortgage holder is "moving soon" and therefore doesn't want to spend the money.

Of course, many residential companies are performance based pay, so there is no time to fix, only to sell or upsell.

If you're saying that most of these failures are a result of poor ductwork not having the proper flow rate, that falls squarely on the installer shoulders for not properly assessing the home first.

If a customer is not willing to upgrade their ductwork and make the system compatible with a variable flow, I think the tech/salesman has a duty to simply not sell it to them.

Sort of like if an idiot customer insisted a tire shop mount a tire on a rim it wasn't compatible with. The shop should simply say no.

I'm not saying the customer is always right and they can't be tightwads, but something tells me most of the time it's about making the sale on the higher priced equipment and not the technician pleading with the homeowner not to buy the higher priced equipment that won't work in his home.

 

[danski0224]

If you're saying that most of these failures are a result of poor ductwork not having the proper flow rate, that falls squarely on the installer shoulders for not properly assessing the home first.

If a customer is not willing to upgrade their ductwork and make the system compatible with a variable flow, I think the tech/salesman has a duty to simply not sell it to them.

Sort of like if an idiot customer insisted a tire shop mount a tire on a rim it wasn't compatible with. The shop should simply say no.

I'm not saying the customer is always right and they can't be tightwads, but something tells me most of the time it's about making the sale on the higher priced equipment and not the technician pleading with the homeowner not to buy the higher priced equipment that won't work in his home.

You obviously haven't worked for a residential HVAC company. Or a commercial HVAC company. Union or not.

The home is assessed by a so-called "Comfort Adviser" (CA), not the installing technician. The installer might give some basic info, but an office person will usually close the deal.

The CA is usually an office person and the installer is a field person, so you know who is right, and who is wrong, right from the get go.

Damn near all of the time, if I bring something up about an installation, I am shot down by whoever is in charge. Put it in, and if we get caught, we might fix it then. I couldn't tell you how many times I have heard "it's just the return, it doesn't need sealing, or turning vanes" or "no one will see it"...

The salesperson/CA at a company is paid on commission, so there is no interest in walking away from a sale for most (not all).

The installer might get a spiff on upgrades, and this stuff is tracked by the employer, so there is a conflict of interest.

Places like Sears hire so-called subcontractors, and the installer is paid a piece rate, and has to hire his/her own helper as another subcontractor. Because these installers and helpers do not make the sale or determine start times, technically they are employees, but unless someone calls the DoL and reports it, nothing changes. Other shops operate in this manner, too.

A couple of years ago, the most recognized residential company in the Chicago area had a contest where the employee that condemned the most heat exchangers got a new Ford Mustang. I have yet to run into someone with a condemned heat exchanger that has proof- either a picture or a combustion analysis report.

Another big issue is that there are no specifications for residential bids so the customer can compare apples to apples. The continuation to that train of thought is that given specifications, most do not understand them or read them. The customer skips right down to the line item with the number and compares that only.

For the record, if I can't get the minimum changes required to improve airflow for VS equipment, I do not install it. Same goes for other requirements like combustion air or chimney liners or linesets or barometric dampers. I have refused jobs.

 

[Gila Monster]

You obviously haven't worked for a residential HVAC company. Or a commercial HVAC company. Union or not.

The home is assessed by a so-called "Comfort Adviser" (CA), not the installing technician. The installer might give some basic info, but an office person will usually close the deal.

The CA is usually an office person and the installer is a field person, so you know who is right, and who is wrong, right from the get go.

Damn near all of the time, if I bring something up about an installation, I am shot down by whoever is in charge. Put it in, and if we get caught, we might fix it then. I couldn't tell you how many times I have heard "it's just the return, it doesn't need sealing, or turning vanes" or "no one will see it"...

The salesperson/CA at a company is paid on commission, so there is no interest in walking away from a sale for most (not all).

The installer might get a spiff on upgrades, and this stuff is tracked by the employer, so there is a conflict of interest.

Places like Sears hire so-called subcontractors, and the installer is paid a piece rate, and has to hire his/her own helper as another subcontractor. Because these installers and helpers do not make the sale or determine start times, technically they are employees, but unless someone calls the DoL and reports it, nothing changes. Other shops operate in this manner, too.

A couple of years ago, the most recognized residential company in the Chicago area had a contest where the employee that condemned the most heat exchangers got a new Ford Mustang. I have yet to run into someone with a condemned heat exchanger that has proof- either a picture or a combustion analysis report.

Another big issue is that there are no specifications for residential bids so the customer can compare apples to apples. The continuation to that train of thought is that given specifications, most do not understand them or read them. The customer skips right down to the line item with the number and compares that only.

For the record, if I can't get the minimum changes required to improve airflow for VS equipment, I do not install it. Same goes for other requirements like combustion air or chimney liners or linesets or barometric dampers. I have refused jobs.

Well, that's a shame, but it still sounds like the installing AC company is at fault for making those decisions when the duct work can't work with the system, which was my point.

So I guess the salesmen are to blame and the techs just follow orders.

But every firm I've worked with, the "sales" people and technicians played both roles.

 

[Done That]

That's lame too.

Electronics are in almost everything these days, I think most of the bugs have been worked out.

Less electronics in a VS motor than a mini-split...

Nothing wrong with adding a surge protection device, though.

This is a snipet from the DOE Furnace Fans Efficiency ruling:

[6450-01-P]
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
10 CFR Parts 429 and 430
[Docket Number EERE–2010–BT–STD–0011]
RIN: 1904–AC22

"A number of stakeholders stated that failure rates are higher for BPM motors than
for PSC motors, leading to shorter lifetime. Rheem stated that the PSC motor life, which
it estimated to be 15 years, is much longer than the BPM motor life. AHRI stated that the failure rate for a
high efficiency motor is typically higher than that of a PSC motor because the electronics
added to a high efficiency motor introduce additional failure modes associated with the
life of electronic controls in damp, very cold and very hot conditions. AHRI has collected
data from manufacturers that show that the failure rates associated with constant-torque
BPM and constant-airflow BPM technologies are higher than PSC motors over an
extended time period.
JCI stated that, based on an analysis of JCI’s
residential warranty data, failure rates associated with constant-torque BPM and constantairflow
BPM technologies are significantly higher than those experienced by standard
PSC motors due to the added electronic controls that are required as part of the BPM
motor designs, which are more susceptible to failure due to power fluctuations and other
factors.

 

[yeldogt]

It's hard enough to get a whole house load rating done .. try getting room to room done .. that's what is needed to lay out the ductwork.

Around me the best ductwork was done by the old school oil dealers -- the one I used had a metal shop with some really talented duct guys. I never understood how good I had it back when I started doing rehabs for profit and my own homes. I actually paid the engineer a few times to come to another state -- to lay out a house for me. All gone now. It's all trunk board and flex duct ... or all flex. Off times the installers have no real idea of HVAC -- they are following general guidelines.

Most system have horrible duct work from the start -- almost no effort is done to get it better. You would think the production home builder would do it better because they build the same house over and over ... but they are only about cost. Who buys a house based on the HVAC -- they want heat and cool. What no one understands is that by laying out the rooms correctly with the proper ductwork -- the system will be more efficient -- quieter and you will be more comfortable ... and the system will last longer. When it come time to replace the furnace or air handler ... most want the cheapest install and don't want to fix the problems that would make it better or last longer.

 

[mygarageone]

I'd run away from Rheem and Ruud like a tornado was chasing me.

Are you scared of them , I have been installing Raheem/Ruud prodects for better part of 20 yrs .
They are excellent products.

 

[Dagny]

There's nothing wrong with rheem and i'm a Heil dealer since 1980.

 

[kneeman]

It's hard enough to get a whole house load rating done .. try getting room to room done .. that's what is needed to lay out the ductwork.

Around me the best ductwork was done by the old school oil dealers -- the one I used had a metal shop with some really talented duct guys. I never understood how good I had it back when I started doing rehabs for profit and my own homes. I actually paid the engineer a few times to come to another state -- to lay out a house for me. All gone now. It's all trunk board and flex duct ... or all flex. Off times the installers have no real idea of HVAC -- they are following general guidelines.

Most system have horrible duct work from the start -- almost no effort is done to get it better. You would think the production home builder would do it better because they build the same house over and over ... but they are only about cost. Who buys a house based on the HVAC -- they want heat and cool. What no one understands is that by laying out the rooms correctly with the proper ductwork -- the system will be more efficient -- quieter and you will be more comfortable ... and the system will last longer. When it come time to replace the furnace or air handler ... most want the cheapest install and don't want to fix the problems that would make it better or last longer.

Are you scared of them , I have been installing Raheem/Ruud prodects for better part of 20 yrs .
They are excellent products.

Back when their indoor coils had 5-year warranties they always failed at year six. I gave up then and haven't gone back since.