This will only be a 240 sub panel. No neutrals needed. Only ran a 6/2. My question is per code do I need to go buy a separate Ground Bar. Or can I use the neutral bar as the ground bar since there will be no neutrals whatsoever. Brevard Florida
In the middle of wiring. Quick question
- Thread starter Astross89
- Start date
Marctrees
Well-known member
You have a total of three conductors... 2 hots, and one grounding conductor.. Correct ?
So then you can use the "Neutral" Bar as a "Grounding Bar", making SURE it is bonded to the box.
AFAIK... In practical use anyway.. code Guys will chime in.
Marc
So then you can use the "Neutral" Bar as a "Grounding Bar", making SURE it is bonded to the box.
AFAIK... In practical use anyway.. code Guys will chime in.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
I dunno, this bothers me though.. the fact of no Neutral pulled to the panel.. whether you need it or not...
Someday you will be gone, and some future Yahoo will take over.. and say "Gee, I don't have a neutral here, and I want a 120 outlet..... OOOOO but I DO have a ground !! ... so thats 120 to the ground.... Martha,,, I'm all set !!
Now, he is using the ground as a current carrying conductor... creating a total Pandora box of life safety issues.
Not good.
Marc
Someday you will be gone, and some future Yahoo will take over.. and say "Gee, I don't have a neutral here, and I want a 120 outlet..... OOOOO but I DO have a ground !! ... so thats 120 to the ground.... Martha,,, I'm all set !!
Now, he is using the ground as a current carrying conductor... creating a total Pandora box of life safety issues.
Not good.
Marc
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That's my other thread. Yes the mistake was done I ran a 6 / 2 instead of a 6 / 3. My goal was the run two 240 volt and later on be able to add 120 if I wanted to. Walls are up wires ran. This was the only mistake I have made so far that I know of. LOL. I am not pulling down the walls at this point. I have a ton of 120s near it. You live you learn.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400305
Marctrees
Well-known member
I edited my post while you were typing... Please notice the added part.
Marc
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
Not to rain on your parade, but, ... do you understand that if the Yahoo above did that.... That an Electrician in the future moving stuff around in your MAIN panel..... could, possibly, get a lethal shock handling that ground from the Sub?
If there was a load plugged into the 120 outlet the Yahoo made, like a ceiling light that was on at the time... and the electrician lifted the ground wire.. the moment he broke it loose from it's terminal, that bare ground from the Sub would be 120 to ground.. so now allasudden .. what was an expected dead ground... in his greasy sweatty fingers, now could possibly kill him.
Not funny stuff.
Marc
If there was a load plugged into the 120 outlet the Yahoo made, like a ceiling light that was on at the time... and the electrician lifted the ground wire.. the moment he broke it loose from it's terminal, that bare ground from the Sub would be 120 to ground.. so now allasudden .. what was an expected dead ground... in his greasy sweatty fingers, now could possibly kill him.
Not funny stuff.
Marc
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Marctrees
Well-known member
Respectfully, you are not understanding me.
One of the Elect "Usual suspects" ..please chime in here.
Marc
One of the Elect "Usual suspects" ..please chime in here.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
I say.... the POTENTIALLY Hazardous situation was born when power was brought to the Sub..W/O a legitimate Neutral insulated seperate from Ground conductor... and then.. in future... the possibility of an ignorant USING the bare ground AS a Neutral..That's the potential problem.
Marc
Marc
Dagny
Well-known member
Stupid people will always find ways to injure themselves and others or burn things down write it inside and out 240 only no neutral.
I apologize. It sounded like you were saying someone might mistake it and get a lethal shock. Because they did not know what I did in the past. Was just asking safest way or what not to do. I will wait for more to chime in. Thank you for your help
Marctrees
Well-known member
Asstross -Ok, i'm sure you know you have 120 between either of your hots, and your ground... Right?
OK, so now we have the possibility to make a 120 outlet in a pinch.. follow me?
So now an ignorant yahoo does that.. and plugs in a load to "Make" the ckt.
So, now someone else, that does not know about was was done, happens to lift the ground off of it's lug in the MAIN panel.
ALLASUDDEN, because he opens the ckt, that ground he is holding is at 120 to ground... NO different than him holding a "Hot" wire.
Marc
OK, so now we have the possibility to make a 120 outlet in a pinch.. follow me?
So now an ignorant yahoo does that.. and plugs in a load to "Make" the ckt.
So, now someone else, that does not know about was was done, happens to lift the ground off of it's lug in the MAIN panel.
ALLASUDDEN, because he opens the ckt, that ground he is holding is at 120 to ground... NO different than him holding a "Hot" wire.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
The usual Guys will chime in tonight... I was not yelling at you, just want you to know what is realistically possible.
For now, working w what you have, go ahead and use the "neutral" bar as the ground terrminal for everything, making SURE to bond it to the box.
Marc
For now, working w what you have, go ahead and use the "neutral" bar as the ground terrminal for everything, making SURE to bond it to the box.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
Ok, so let me try to explain maybe better..
First, I am not talking "Code" because it has been years since I worked with it... I am just talking practical reality.
OK, so, for YOUR needs what you have is fine.
Bond your grounds from your outlets, and the incoming ground all together opn a strip that is ALSO bonded to the box.
All fine.
Here is the potential future REAL problem....
now, you know that from either one of your hots to your ground you have 120v.. CORRECT ??
Yes, you know that.
Now, you die, Wifes new Husband that is a hack says... HMMMM I need another to run some BigASS lighting in the shop here.. I have the power right here (referring to your new 220 only subpanel)
BillyBob sez to himself "There ain't nun of dem whi9te mwarrs here.. how do I hook up my BigAss lights?
He gets out his little free HF tester, and realizes he has the 120 he needs .. but it to the ground you have.. NOT to a legitimate insulated current carrying Neutral
So, he feeds his lighting w a single pole breaker and the Ground bar you installed... Girlfriend, or the Wife, gives him extra special reward saying "You are MY Electrician Man".
BillyBob sleeps extra good that night.
Couple months later, BillyBob wrecks driving drunk on a beer run.
Wife gets new Boyfriend.
Roscoe.
New boyfriend w OCD, decides he want to rearrange and straighten up the wiring in the MAIN panel.
He was just in the shop to get his HF screwdriver, and left those Big *** lights on that previous BillyBob installed.
Roscoe starts removing and straightening up the grounds on the ground bar in main panel.
Sweaty greasy hands.. he is grabbing those grounds NOO problem cuz he "Knows" they are dead.
He lifts the ground that fed the subpanel you put in, and, being Roscoe, he has no shoes on. staning in the damp grass, and allasudden... HE is the major load in the cjkt...completing the ckt to Ground through his body in series w the BigAss lights.
Roscoes heart goes ded, Wife needs to go out again.
Marc
First, I am not talking "Code" because it has been years since I worked with it... I am just talking practical reality.
OK, so, for YOUR needs what you have is fine.
Bond your grounds from your outlets, and the incoming ground all together opn a strip that is ALSO bonded to the box.
All fine.
Here is the potential future REAL problem....
now, you know that from either one of your hots to your ground you have 120v.. CORRECT ??
Yes, you know that.
Now, you die, Wifes new Husband that is a hack says... HMMMM I need another to run some BigASS lighting in the shop here.. I have the power right here (referring to your new 220 only subpanel)
BillyBob sez to himself "There ain't nun of dem whi9te mwarrs here.. how do I hook up my BigAss lights?
He gets out his little free HF tester, and realizes he has the 120 he needs .. but it to the ground you have.. NOT to a legitimate insulated current carrying Neutral
So, he feeds his lighting w a single pole breaker and the Ground bar you installed... Girlfriend, or the Wife, gives him extra special reward saying "You are MY Electrician Man".
BillyBob sleeps extra good that night.
Couple months later, BillyBob wrecks driving drunk on a beer run.
Wife gets new Boyfriend.
Roscoe.
New boyfriend w OCD, decides he want to rearrange and straighten up the wiring in the MAIN panel.
He was just in the shop to get his HF screwdriver, and left those Big *** lights on that previous BillyBob installed.
Roscoe starts removing and straightening up the grounds on the ground bar in main panel.
Sweaty greasy hands.. he is grabbing those grounds NOO problem cuz he "Knows" they are dead.
He lifts the ground that fed the subpanel you put in, and, being Roscoe, he has no shoes on. staning in the damp grass, and allasudden... HE is the major load in the cjkt...completing the ckt to Ground through his body in series w the BigAss lights.
Roscoes heart goes ded, Wife needs to go out again.
Marc
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Marctrees
Well-known member
Well, OK, that is true.
And I don't mean to rattle Asstross cage.. AND, as I said, I am not commenting as per Code, but as per real life situations I have seen as a Elect Contractor.
It just bothers me that what "Is Done" paves the way for future screwups way more than if a Neutral was also pulled.
Marc
And I don't mean to rattle Asstross cage.. AND, as I said, I am not commenting as per Code, but as per real life situations I have seen as a Elect Contractor.
It just bothers me that what "Is Done" paves the way for future screwups way more than if a Neutral was also pulled.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
Waiting for the Usual Suspects, the Electrical Gang... YOU know who u r !!
Marc
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
Astross - So do you understand the current path that can cause this hazard?
Like.. Test Question - "When is a white neutral wire 120v" ??
Answer.. When it is in a "Return" wire in a ckt that has 120v impressed onto it"
So, go to any typical 120 v ckt at your breaker panel.
Take your VOM, no matter the style, and probe the white wire on the neutral bar.
You will have 0v to ground.
Now, lift that white ckt "return" wire off of the bar... clip your meter onto it.... if EVERYTHING is "Off" that is hooked or plugged into that ckt, your meter will read 0.
But... If ANYTHING is connectected, making it's way "Back" to the neutral, when you seperate that white wire from the bar, OPENING the ckt, NOW the white wire will be 120 to ground.
And that is what killed Roscoe.... He never expected the ground wire to be carrying regular current.
All because BillyBob used the ground as a neutral, because he did not have a true neutral available, and it worked good enough to get his "Reward"
Marc
Like.. Test Question - "When is a white neutral wire 120v" ??
Answer.. When it is in a "Return" wire in a ckt that has 120v impressed onto it"
So, go to any typical 120 v ckt at your breaker panel.
Take your VOM, no matter the style, and probe the white wire on the neutral bar.
You will have 0v to ground.
Now, lift that white ckt "return" wire off of the bar... clip your meter onto it.... if EVERYTHING is "Off" that is hooked or plugged into that ckt, your meter will read 0.
But... If ANYTHING is connectected, making it's way "Back" to the neutral, when you seperate that white wire from the bar, OPENING the ckt, NOW the white wire will be 120 to ground.
And that is what killed Roscoe.... He never expected the ground wire to be carrying regular current.
All because BillyBob used the ground as a neutral, because he did not have a true neutral available, and it worked good enough to get his "Reward"
Marc
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Holy ****. Marc, take a deep breath and step away.
We can't solve for every ***** to come after us.
OP, you are fine. Add a label to the panel if you want. Use the panel, the world will not end.
We can't solve for every ***** to come after us.
OP, you are fine. Add a label to the panel if you want. Use the panel, the world will not end.
Marctrees
Well-known member
In my opinion... in an industrial situation maintained by Professionals, if Code permits it, a NO neutral panel is fine.
I worked by far Residential, so I don't know what the Comm/ Ind situation is on this.
In a residential situation, fraught w Roscoes and BillyBobs... it opens a possible world of hurt.
ALL because the ground offers to the ignorant the "Same" thing and possibilitys as a legitimate Neutral.
Marc
I worked by far Residential, so I don't know what the Comm/ Ind situation is on this.
In a residential situation, fraught w Roscoes and BillyBobs... it opens a possible world of hurt.
ALL because the ground offers to the ignorant the "Same" thing and possibilitys as a legitimate Neutral.
Marc
Marctrees
Well-known member
Marctrees
Well-known member
Did I skeer everyone away?
I know what I was saying was Fact.
Watching "Red October" for the umpteeth time as I type.
Marc
I know what I was saying was Fact.
Watching "Red October" for the umpteeth time as I type.
Marc
What I take from this is that we need to keep untrained people from doing electrical work. There's a thousand ways tom, **** and Harry can screw up with electrical. It's not our job to make it impossible to screw up but to either keep him from screwing with it in the first place or educate him.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
No you didnt. I just dont have time to respons to all of it...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Interesting how theres currently 2 threads about 240volt only panels
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
No need to apologize. Just interesting that the topic has come up twice at the same time.
cory58
Well-known member
Instead of another verse of "50 ways that Billy Bob will electrocute himself," why don't we just state the obvious: Whether it's code required or not, it would be a really good idea to run a neutral wire to the subpanel.
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Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app
I would like to know if it's code or not. Running a neutral is not an option. I am not pulling down walls that are painted. it was a mistake. But I only planned on running 240. And if I add AC I will still will have the slot to add that.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
You'll find there is no topic in the electrical section, no matter how simple, that it can't be beat to death with a sledgehammer. 
Marctrees
Well-known member
You'll find there is no topic in the electrical section, no matter how simple, that it can't be beat to death with a sledgehammer.
That, and , with Code Book interpretations !!!
Not this Thread, but many other questions anyway.
Marc
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Shiftless
Well-known member
Thank you Marc for your entertaining and informative contributions to this thread. I learned something.