Do I need a ground rod at the shop?

[Atcnick]

Im planning out my shop and I’m stuck at one thing. I have 400 amp service running to the house, then it’s split off 200 to the house and 200 to the shop. There’s 2 cut off switch box’s next to the meter, one for the house, one for the shop. I see the ground wire coming out of th main meter box connecting to the ground rod. In the main panel in the house I see that neutral and ground are bonded with the green screw.

I’m assuming when I install the main panel in th shop I will also have it bonded. Correct me if I’m wrong. And do I need to run a ground rod at the shop and ground the panel at the shop?

I’m a novice.

 

[Atcnick]

Here’s a picture of the meter and the cut off switches for house and shop

 

[Atcnick]

Here’s the main panel in the house and the service entrance and meter with 2 cut offs outside the house. Th 3 strand is what’s running to the shop

 

[The Cobbler]

best to state your location
It seems that in the US you need ground rods. Here in Ontario it's not required

 

[Norcal]

Besides 2 ground rods, a grounding conductor run with your feeder is required, a 3-wire feeder used to be allowed under certain conditions but those days are long gone.

 

[Atcnick]

Besides 2 ground rods, a grounding conductor run with your feeder is required, a 3-wire feeder used to be allowed under certain conditions but those days are long gone.

Hmm... are you saying I need a grounding wire from the panel in the shop to the cut off next to the meter panel? That may be a problem, the cable is already buried and ran to the shop which is about 200ft from the house. Is there another option?

I had the electrician do it when he was wiring my house, it’s interesting that he didn’t mention it.

I’m located in Texas, out in the country.

 

[Atcnick]

My shop with the house in the background. And 2 driveway in between

 

[sberry]

With 3 wires it's not a current legal install. It used to be if there were not other interconnecting metal pathways. When it was 3 wire the second panel needed to be bonded to N and rods.
It is sposed to have 4 wires for panel to panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im planning out my shop and I’m stuck at one thing. I have 400 amp service running to the house, then it’s split off 200 to the house and 200 to the shop. There’s 2 cut off switch box’s next to the meter, one for the house, one for the shop. I see the ground wire coming out of th main meter box connecting to the ground rod. In the main panel in the house I see that neutral and ground are bonded with the green screw.

I’m assuming when I install the main panel in th shop I will also have it bonded. Correct me if I’m wrong. And do I need to run a ground rod at the shop and ground the panel at the shop?

I’m a novice.

Who wired all this up? And are these pictures current?

There are many things wrong here.

All panels after the first means of disconnect need to be 4-wire with isolated neutral bars.

The panel in the house with the 4-wire SER should most definitely NOT be bonded.

The bare aluminum is the EGC/ground wire and that needs to be on a separate bus bar. The green bonding screw needs to be removed as well.

You will probably have to purchase a ground bar kit. Needs to be listed for the panel. Any grounds on the neutral bar need to be moved over to the new bars.

The 3-wire running to the shop is wrong as well. NEC requires 4-wire to all subpanels including detached as of 2008 code cycle or if there are parallel metallic pathways. 4-wire is best regardless.

The panel you put in the shop is considered a subpanel NOT a main panel. This subpanel also needs isolated neutral bars (unbonded). You also need 2 ground rods here.

The disconnects, in your case, are the mains and the neutrals need to be bonded here with the GEC from the rods.

All of these situations are covered in the electrical FAQs here (post #3):

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

Here’s the main panel in the house and the service entrance and meter with 2 cut offs outside the house. The 3 strand is what’s running to the shop

Need to add an EGC/ground wire to the feeder to the shop.

Hmm... are you saying I need a grounding wire from the panel in the shop to the cut off next to the meter panel? That may be a problem, the cable is already buried and ran to the shop which is about 200ft from the house. Is there another option?

I had the electrician do it when he was wiring my house, it’s interesting that he didn’t mention it.

I’m located in Texas, out in the country.

Yes that is what we are saying.

Whoever this electrician is, he isnt a very good one and doesnt know what he is doing evidenced by your pics.

There is no other option. The ground wire needs to be ran to the shop.

 

[Bert_]

This may not be a popular answer.

You could use the 3 wire feed and bond N-G at the shop and also install two ground rods. Prior to '08 this would have been compliant and it is totally safe. You do have the possibility of neutral current flowing on anything metal between the shop and house, and that is the reason for the code change. It would be the same situation if you had a separate service at the shop.

This would probably be a problem if it needs to get inspected since code no longer allows it. Since the original electrician installed it this way there could be a chance the inspector is ok with it. My local inspector has only been cracking down on this for the last year or two.

Keep in mind if you are planning any other feeders you need a separate grounding conductor to be code compliant.

 

[Atcnick]

This may not be a popular answer.

You could use the 3 wire feed and bond N-G at the shop and also install two ground rods. Prior to '08 this would have been compliant and it is totally safe. You do have the possibility of neutral current flowing on anything metal between the shop and house, and that is the reason for the code change. It would be the same situation if you had a separate service at the shop.

This would probably be a problem if it needs to get inspected since code no longer allows it. Since the original electrician installed it this way there could be a chance the inspector is ok with it. My local inspector has only been cracking down on this for the last year or two.

Keep in mind if you are planning any other feeders you need a separate grounding conductor to be code compliant.

THis was all wired a few months ago... we just had the house built. Does it make any difference that the shop is all metal? It looks like I’m going to have to hire an electrical inspector... I had my doubts about this electrician that did the install.

 

[sberry]

If a permit was pulled there should be an inspection.

 

[Atcnick]

If a permit was pulled there should be an inspection.

Its out in the country. No permits, no inspections

 

[wyliesdiesels]

THis was all wired a few months ago... we just had the house built. Does it make any difference that the shop is all metal? It looks like I’m going to have to hire an electrical inspector... I had my doubts about this electrician that did the install.

Will you have any communications lines going to the shop?

Is there metal conduit such as electrical, gas or water lines going to the shop?

Yeah this guy screwed up in many ways..

 

[klassenl]

Yeah this guy screwed up in many ways..

Let's all be fair to the OP and his electrician. Until we see the code book they are working off, all of us Internet commentators are guessing and assuming.

 

[Norcal]

Let's all be fair to the OP and his electrician. Until we see the code book they are working off, all of us Internet commentators are guessing and assuming.

Texas is on the 2017, so the "electrician" was way off.

 

[pattenp]

This may not be a popular answer.

Prior to '08 this would have been compliant and it is totally safe.

Not sure about that. If it was totally safe the code would not have been changed.

 

[ReggieR]

Put a ground rod out there. It's not like investing in a boat.A nice long stick of 1/2" copper,a ladder, a clamp and a BFH and you're all set

 

[Bert_]

Not sure about that. If it was totally safe the code would not have been changed.

Would you feel the same if he had the power company set a second meter at the shop? Power company is 100% 3 wire feed.

Sometimes rural areas get away with it. I think if I buried a 3 wire feeder the local inspector would grumble a bit but pass it saying remember the ground next time. It has really only been enforced the last couple years around here.

Put a ground rod out there. It's not like investing in a boat.A nice long stick of 1/2" copper,a ladder, a clamp and a BFH and you're all set

A ground rod is a completely separate issue. It does NOT replace a ground wire back to the service.

You either need the ground wire to the service or bond to neutral. No bond and only connecting the ground to a rod is very unsafe. And I think everyone will agree with me on that

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Funny how everyone is hung up on the shop and yet his house subpanel is bonded with both neutral and ground landed on same bar...

 

[Aceman]

It's obvious the person you hired doesn't understand the fundamentals. I see at least a half dozen or so violations.

Multiple neutral/grounding issues.
Multiple cables ran through one MA with no clamps.
SER into the back of the 200 amp breaker enclosure appears to have no clamp.
Sealing locknuts or similar required above terminations in the meterbase.
Etc.
Etc.

I hope the wiring buried in the walls looks better than this, but I doubt it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's obvious the person you hired doesn't understand the fundamentals. I see at least a half dozen or so violations.

Multiple neutral/grounding issues.
Multiple cables ran through one MA with no clamps.
SER into the back of the 200 amp breaker enclosure appears to have no clamp.
Sealing locknuts or similar required above terminations in the meterbase.
Etc.
Etc.

I hope the wiring buried in the walls looks better than this, but I doubt it.

Whoops. I missed all that.

I didnt even bother looking at the conduit and clamp work.

The grounding/bonding issues were enough to start with...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This may not be a popular answer.

You could use the 3 wire feed and bond N-G at the shop and also install two ground rods. Prior to '08 this would have been compliant and it is totally safe. You do have the possibility of neutral current flowing on anything metal between the shop and house, and that is the reason for the code change. It would be the same situation if you had a separate service at the shop.

This would probably be a problem if it needs to get inspected since code no longer allows it. Since the original electrician installed it this way there could be a chance the inspector is ok with it. My local inspector has only been cracking down on this for the last year or two.

Keep in mind if you are planning any other feeders you need a separate grounding conductor to be code compliant.

Without knowing if he has parallel metallic pathways between the buildings, we really cant say a 3-wire feeder would be safe...

 

[Atcnick]

Only thing running between the shop is the 3 wire feeder in pvc conduit and pvc water pipe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Only thing running between the shop is the 3 wire feeder in pvc conduit and pvc water pipe.

Ok so what is the size of the pipe and what is the size of the feeders?

 

[Atcnick]

Ok so what is the size of the pipe and what is the size of the feeders?

2” conduit I believe. The outer diameter is 2.5”. The cable looks like 2/0 and 4/0.

 

[outdoorspace]

I read that if you use a double lug at the meter base both connections are considered as a service entrance cable. They both would be without a ground wire. Both panels would be considered a main panel with ground bonded to neutral.

Of course check with your local power company and AHJ.

 

[MikeF2316]

Would you feel the same if he had the power company set a second meter at the shop? Power company is 100% 3 wire feed.

...

This is what I wonder about. If the OP had a separate service at the shop, it would be fed by 3 wires from almost the same place, and in theory, perfectly safe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I read that if you use a double lug at the meter base both connections are considered as a service entrance cable. They both would be without a ground wire. Both panels would be considered a main panel with ground bonded to neutral.

Of course check with your local power company and AHJ.

yes but this isnt a double lug meter connected straight to the detached shop panel. He has dual disconnects...

This is what I wonder about. If the OP had a separate service at the shop, it would be fed by 3 wires from almost the same place, and in theory, perfectly safe.

The issue is the bonding...

 

[outdoorspace]

yes but this isnt a double lug meter. He has dual disconnects.

Looks like a double lug meter base to me.

Are outside disconnects even required?

 

[sberry]

Lots of amateurs know the right way to do this, no reasonsomeone for hire can't do it right.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like a double lug meter base to me.

Are outside disconnects even required?

Half my comment was erased. Went back and edited.

The disconnects may be required by fire department or AHJ even though there is no inspections.

Regardless, I would not want that much unfused wire on my property. No way to shut off the power...

 

[outdoorspace]

Half my comment was erased. Went back and edited.

The disconnects may be required by fire department or AHJ even though there is no inspections.

Regardless, I would not want that much unfused wire on my property. No way to shut off the power...

I agree with all that running a ground is a better method, not trying to argue that. Especially if there are other wires that could provide another ground path. (Coax/shielded Ethernet) But I just wanted to point out that the wire that is currently installed may meet code and best to check with AHJ before replacing it at great expense.

On my property I have 300' underground back to the transformer, and I couldn't add protection even if I wanted to. It's pretty common.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I agree with all that running a ground is a better method, not trying to argue that. Especially if there are other wires that could provide another ground path. (Coax/shielded Ethernet) But I just wanted to point out that the wire that is currently installed may meet code and best to check with AHJ before replacing it at great expense.

On my property I have 300' underground back to the transformer, and I couldn't add protection even if I wanted to. It's pretty common.

The current installation he has most definitely does not meet code as pointed out by Norcal above. Texas is on 2017 code cycle. 3-wire feeds to detached structures are not allowed as of 2008 code cycle...

He does not need to replace the wire. Only needs to add a ground wire, unbond the subpanel, and add ground bars and ground rods...

 

[Atcnick]

Not sure if it tell you anything, but here’s a picture of the inside of the meter box and cut offs

 

[outdoorspace]

The current installation he has most definitely does not meet code as pointed out by Norcal above. Texas is on 2017 code cycle. 3-wire feeds to detached structures are not allowed as of 2008 code cycle...

He does not need to replace the wire. Only needs to add a ground wire, unbond the subpanel, and add ground bars and ground rods...

230.40 Only one set of service entrance conductors per service drop.

Exception No. 3: A single-family dwelling unit and its accessory structures shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors run to each from a single servicedrop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service lateral.

 

[Ray-CA]

When we built ours, we tied a copper ground from the box to the re-bar before the slab was poured. The city also wanted a ground wire from the box to the water line where it entered the building. (Didn't make any sense to me as the copper pipe changes to pvc about 18-inches below grade.) We also upgraded the main breaker box, so put an 8-foot ground rod in there.

Ray

 

[wyliesdiesels]

230.40 Only one set of service entrance conductors per service drop.

Exception No. 3: A single-family dwelling unit and its accessory structures shall be permitted to have one set of service-entrance conductors run to each from a single servicedrop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service lateral.

Ok and how does this apply here?

Did you read the definition of service-entrance conductors?

The feed to the garage is not a service entrance, since it is behind a disconnect, which is the service equipment. The feed to the garage is considered a branch feeder...

When we built ours, we tied a copper ground from the box to the re-bar before the slab was poured. The city also wanted a ground wire from the box to the water line where it entered the building. (Didn't make any sense to me as the copper pipe changes to pvc about 18-inches below grade.) We also upgraded the main breaker box, so put an 8-foot ground rod in there.

Ray

Yes those are grounding electrodes which are a different animal than equipment grounding conductors, the wire that is missing in the OPs situation...

 

[outdoorspace]

Ok and how does this apply here?

Did you read the definition of service-entrance conductors?

The feed to the garage is not a service entrance, since it is behind a disconnect, which is the service equipment. The feed to the garage is considered a branch feeder...

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you. If the shop comes directly from the meter base as explained, it is considered a service entrance, and that quoted section applies.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you. If the shop comes directly from the meter base as explained, it is considered a service entrance, and that quoted section applies.

Lol no need to spell it for me. I understand it perfectly.

It doesnt come directly from the meter base. It comes from the disconnect which is the service equipment.

Service-entrance conductors, Underground system.
The service conductors between the terminals of the service equipment and the point of connection to the service lateral or underground service conductors.

So does the wire, that is going to the shop, connected between the disconnect and the service lateral which is before the meter?

NO

So the OPs wire to the shop does not fit that definition.