realigning wires in my two panels?

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So with the pending hurricane, it has me thinking of one of my "to do" projects (number 478 of 1,257!).
I have twin 200A panels in my garage:

I have a generator plug below the left panel and that gets my kitchen fridge, upstair lights, well pump and other stuff. My garage fridge is in the right panel and so are the family room lights, etc.
What I would like to do is put all my "essentials" in the left panel and that have the generator just run those.
I then will install a manual interlock kit on that panel.
What is the code compliant way to move wires between the panels? I figure I am cutting some drywall above the panels to access the wires Most are going to be too short - so how can I do this?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Picture doesnt load

 

[jpcjguy]

Darn. Sorry about the picture not working. I’m going to attach it

 

[Warrenator]

If you need to splice wires you can use wire nuts and add a bit of the appropriate wire to make it long enough but this must be inside either a junction box or inside the panel, can't hide the splices inside a wall.

 

[Radix2]

Put another interlock in the second panel and power it from a breaker in the first. Then you can pick any circuit in any panel to power with your generator safely. No need to move any wires, cost is two breakers and the interlock.

 

[tyme2par4]

Put another interlock in the second panel and power it from a breaker in the first. Then you can pick any circuit in any panel to power with your generator safely. No need to move any wires, cost is two breakers and the interlock.

That's clever. I wouldn't have thought of that option.

 

[jpcjguy]

Put another interlock in the second panel and power it from a breaker in the first. Then you can pick any circuit in any panel to power with your generator safely. No need to move any wires, cost is two breakers and the interlock.

Great idea!
So the concept is to have the 2nd panel (right one in the pic) powered, in the event of a power loss, by the first panel because the main in the 2nd panel must be off for the "new" breaker (the interlock breaker in the 2nd panel) to "power" the rest of the panel.

So the question is what size breaker should the two new ones be?
The largest breaker I can get in the panel is 125A. The 2nd panel will also have a 125A breaker eventually to power my detached garage.
I guess it can be reasonable - 40-60A since my generator is only 8K running and cannot power any HVAC systems (I am 100% electric).
Just need to make sure I manually cut those larger draw items off in the panel. This includes house HVAC and in the future detached - compressor, welder, lift, etc. I don't want to cut the "main" 125A to the detached because there more than likely be a fridge out there also and want to have access to lights.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[mike93lx]

You should use a 30a breaker for the interlock based on the size of your generator.

 

[jpcjguy]

30A - of course - brain fart. Now as for routing my 10 gauge wire between the two 30A breakers in the panels - what is acceptable for code? Do I need to go up, over and down or can I drill between the two panels and go right through?

 

[slow]

Is there any concern with using a larger interconnect breaker? ie a 50 in case you upgrade generators in the future?

 

[jpcjguy]

Is there any concern with using a larger interconnect breaker? ie a 50 in case you upgrade generators in the future?

Good question - can I use 50 between the panels - as long as the generator is plugged into a 30A? Then if I upgrade generators, I would just need to upgrade the breaker the generator is plugged into (30 to 50 in this case?)

 

[Radix2]

Great idea!
So the concept is to have the 2nd panel (right one in the pic) powered, in the event of a power loss, by the first panel because the main in the 2nd panel must be off for the "new" breaker (the interlock breaker in the 2nd panel) to "power" the rest of the panel.

So the question is what size breaker should the two new ones be?
The largest breaker I can get in the panel is 125A. The 2nd panel will also have a 125A breaker eventually to power my detached garage.
I guess it can be reasonable - 40-60A since my generator is only 8K running and cannot power any HVAC systems (I am 100% electric).
Just need to make sure I manually cut those larger draw items off in the panel. This includes house HVAC and in the future detached - compressor, welder, lift, etc. I don't want to cut the "main" 125A to the detached because there more than likely be a fridge out there also and want to have access to lights.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

Thanks,
Joe

You have it right, the breakers can be whatever size you want, just be sure to size the wire appropriately. Alternatively you can split your generator feed and run it to the interlocked breakers in both panels.

If you go with the breaker feed, you should leave the feed breaker normally off to avoid any live wires in the second panel when it's main is off and the backup is not being used.

 

[mike93lx]

While there are certainly generators over 30a, they get quitr large and use a ton of fuel. I'd be realistic about what you'd actually run and wire it accordingly.

 

[jpcjguy]

You have it right, the breakers can be whatever size you want, just be sure to size the wire appropriately. Alternatively you can split your generator feed and run it to the interlocked breakers in both panels.

If you go with the breaker feed, you should leave the feed breaker normally off to avoid any live wires in the second panel when it's main is off and the backup is not being used.

When you say split your generator feed, do you mean like the attached crude pic?
So wouldn't this be "safer" overall? This would prevent 2nd panel main being on and someone turning the feed breaker on accidentally in panel 1?

 

[Radix2]

When you say split your generator feed, do you mean like the attached crude pic?
So wouldn't this be "safer" overall? This would prevent 2nd panel main being on and someone turning the feed breaker on accidentally in panel 1?

Yep, although you will want to splice the wires with wirenuts or whatever since the breaker is probably not approved for two wires under the clamp.

Since your panels are set up for it, the split feed is probably simpler to understand and so safer.

 

[jpcjguy]

So like the attached picture?

Also - regarding my question around the wire from panel 1 to panel 2.
Do I need to go "up and around" or can I drill a hole between the two(like the attached pic)? I am assuming that one of the panels is on a stud between the two.

 

[tyme2par4]

Yep, although you will want to splice the wires with wirenuts or whatever since the breaker is probably not approved for two wires under the clamp.

Since your panels are set up for it, the split feed is probably simpler to understand and so safer.

Most 30A and lower breakers are rated for 2 wires. It's common to run smoke detectors, or the outlet adjacent to the panel off of breaker that is used for other things.

So like the attached picture?

Also - regarding my question around the wire from panel 1 to panel 2.
Do I need to go "up and around" or can I drill a hole between the two(like the attached pic)? I am assuming that one of the panels is on a stud between the two.

Do your panels have knockouts on the sides? If so, then no reason you can't go through the sides. If you drill a hole, you flirt with voiding warranties and listings.

 

[jpcjguy]

Most 30A and lower breakers are rated for 2 wires. It's common to run smoke detectors, or the outlet adjacent to the panel off of breaker that is used for other things.



Do your panels have knockouts on the sides? If so, then no reason you can't go through the sides. If you drill a hole, you flirt with voiding warranties and listings.

I will have to check if they have knockouts on the side when I get home. Not sure what warranty I have since these panels are circa 1993, when the house was built. My concern is code compliance.

 

[jpcjguy]

I checked my panel and there are knockouts on the side of the panels, and they line up between the panels. (see pic with red arrow).Of course there is the 2x4 stud between them...

So if I punch the knockouts and drill the wood out, what connector can I use? The other pic shows some clamps that I might be able use. The "ears" would go between the panel and the 2x4 - with the screw side inside the panel like the others. Which makes me wonder - is that even acceptable?

Thanks
Joe

 

[EOC_Jason]

The metal clamps have a nut on the back side to tighten down to the panel. Plastic ones you pop in from the outside of the panel too.

... and you still have to drill the hole without hitting any wires in the panel.

Maybe there is something out there just for this kind of situation, I dunno...

 

[jpcjguy]

Those clamps have the "ears" - like these:

 

[mike93lx]

The stud between in the problem. I think you'll have to go out the top or bottom, use the proper clamp/connector and drill a hole in the stud elsewhere

 

[brewchief]

If you can get the knock outs out and drill a clean hole between them(and that could be tricky to say the least) you could use a conduit ****** with a couple locknuts and bushings to go between the panels.

 

[jpcjguy]

If you can get the knock outs out and drill a clean hole between them(and that could be tricky to say the least) you could use a conduit ****** with a couple locknuts and bushings to go between the panels.

true - i guess since it is in a stud I would need some kind of "protection" from a nail - even though when the panel covers are on they **** up against each other.

 

[jpcjguy]

So this project got delayed....(shocker in my life)......and I am coming back around to it.

Since I am always on the prowl for a good deal on a larger portable generator, I plan on running 6 gauge wire everywhere. I figure for the 5-6 feet of total wire I need the cost is minimal. If I upgrade my generator at some point, all I would need to update is the outside outlet box - from a 30A to a 50A and then replace the breakers in the panel from 30A to 50A. Might never happen, but then I don't have to worry about wiring..

Anyway - on to the questions -
The wire will run from the outlet into the "left" panel, to a "connector" and then run one wire to the 30A breaker and the other to the "right" panel 30A breaker. (reference the attached panel pic in earlier post).
As for connecting/splicing the wires, can I use these connectors inside the panel? (attached pic and link below):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008KNX45M/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza


I assume I can use 6/3 NM-B and 4 connectors? or should I use individual wires - but then I would need conduit inside the walls right?
Also, do I need to have the neutral and ground going to both panels? I read a bunch on neutral/ground bonding and still a little confused on that. I do know that on my current generator the the is bonded to the generator frame.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is your idea to backfeed your panel with generator power through one of these putlets?

If so, how will you handle isolating PoCo power? Will you have an interlock?

 

[jpcjguy]

Is your idea to backfeed your panel with generator power through one of these putlets?

If so, how will you handle isolating PoCo power? Will you have an interlock?

Yes - sorry both panels will have interlock kits installed. This one:
https://www.amazon.com/EAT-CH200XA-Cutler-Generator-Interlock-Vertical/dp/B014EAI1T8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

[jpcjguy]

So anybody have any thoughts on those connectors?

 

[Radix2]

So anybody have any thoughts on those connectors?

You can use them. I don't see the need for more than two though. The panels are already grounded and the neutrals tied together for full service current.

 

[jpcjguy]

You can use them. I don't see the need for more than two though. The panels are already grounded and the neutrals tied together for full service current.

So in other words, I just need one set for the red and black? The neutral and ground from the plug can just terminate in one panel and be done? No need to have a neutral and ground in both panels?

 

[Radix2]

So in other words, I just need one set for the red and black? The neutral and ground from the plug can just terminate in one panel and be done? No need to have a neutral and ground in both panels?

Yes, the other connections are already made