No Nuetral to garage

[jwardcomo]

Many years ago I ran a 240V line to my detached garage using 10/2 UF w/ground copper inside plastic conduit. It is attached to the main box with a 30 amp 2 pole breaker. The outlet breakers in the garage box have ground fault breakers. The bare copper was used as both ground and neutral in the box in the garage. The box in the garage was grounded with an 8 foot standard copper coated rod outside the garage.
I recently had a whole house generator installed and the electricians separated the neutrals from the ground bus in the main box. Since then, I have uneven voltages on the 2 legs of the main and my compressor(in the garage) will either blow the breaker or the internal switch under any load. When I turn off the breaker that feeds the garage, all voltages even out and return to normal. I am convinced the problem is the 240 circuit to the garage.

I know I need to separate the neutral from the ground in the box in the garage. Would it be ok to:
1) Add a separated neutral bar to the box in the garage and attach the copper ground wire to it after taping it white.
2) Use the existing bare copper ground wire as the neutral (taping it white), moving it in the main box to the other neutrals.
3) Use the existing rod outside the garage for grounding the box in the garage and the attached ground fault circuits.

 

[Bert_]

No a ground rod will not clear a fault. That setup will be more dangerous than the current wiring.

 

[mike93lx]

Run new 4 conductor feeder. Unless you can pull through the conduit you have in place, you will be stuck digging it up anyway, so better to replace than just add another single conductor.

How long is the run?

 

[exranger06]

Run a new 4-conductor feeder to the garage. Add a ground bar to the garage panel. All of the neutrals should connect to one bar in the panel, and that bar should NOT be bonded to the panel enclosure, and it should NOT be connected to any ground rods. All of the grounds in the box should be connected to a ground bar that IS bonded to the panel enclosure, and should also be connected to the ground rods. This is the ONLY safe and code-compliant way to hook up this panel, so just do it this way.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Post #3 on the electrical FAQs sticky has everything you need to know for the basics on your issue.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

 

[jwardcomo]

Thank you for the help!!
Looks to me that I will be doing some digging and putting in 4 wire and probably a new box this week.

I looked at the FAQ. One thing about the FAQ diagram post 2008. My electrical inspector insisted on adding an insulated bus for the neutral in the main box when they put in the generator. The last diagram shows the neutral and ground on the same bonded bus in the main panel.

When I install the new 4 wire I will have to use the unbonded neutral bus. Any potential problems with that?

 

[pattenp]

Without knowing how your gen and main service is set up its hard to say why the inspector required the neutral to be unbonded in the main panel. Under normal set up where the main disconnect is located the neutral is bonded. At some point at the first main service disconnect your neutral should be bonded.

 

[Jlarson]

It's not uncommon have to separate and isolate neutrals in what was the "main panel" when installing a service rated transfer switch that is going to be the new service disconnecting means and the N-G bond will be moved there.

 

[Bert_]

Just to be clear, at some point the neutral and ground MUST be bonded but it can only be done once. Normally this is in the main panel but it could be an outside disconnect/ect, this is your service disconnect.

Since you say you have uneven voltages in the garage I am wondering if the main neutral-ground bond was removed completely instead of relocated like myself and others were thinking.

 

[jwardcomo]

They did put in a auto transfer switch for the Gen. The main service and the gen feeds it and then there is a 15 foot cable run to the main panel. On the first inspection, the transfer switch passed so I have to assume the bond between neutral and ground was OK. He then failed the main box and also required a ground to the copper water pipe (just in case "someone in the future uses it as ground"). I asked him why the need for a separation of ground and neutral and he stated uneven voltages on the neutral. I've looked at the path the cable takes to the garage and am leaning on running the 4th wire (ground) to the garage instead of totally digging up the yard, walks and flowerbeds. The new generator and existing air conditioner are in line and I can run the ground from there out to the service box in the garage.

 

[Bert_]

They did put in a auto transfer switch for the Gen. The main service and the gen feeds it and then there is a 15 foot cable run to the main panel. On the first inspection, the transfer switch passed so I have to assume the bond between neutral and ground was OK. He then failed the main box and also required a ground to the copper water pipe (just in case "someone in the future uses it as ground"). I asked him why the need for a separation of ground and neutral and he stated uneven voltages on the neutral. I've looked at the path the cable takes to the garage and am leaning on running the 4th wire (ground) to the garage instead of totally digging up the yard, walks and flowerbeds. The new generator and existing air conditioner are in line and I can run the ground from there out to the service box in the garage.

Is there 4 wires from the transfer switch to "main" panel?

 

[jwardcomo]

Is there 4 wires from the transfer switch to "main" panel?

Yes 4 wires.
While confirming that, I found a bare ground wire ground connected to the neutral bus and by way of exit attached to the box and then on to the copper ground pipe. There is a slight current flow there. The continuity test on the meter chatters and I find a few mlli amps on the meter.

I am going to disconnect that ground from the neutrals as soon as I can figure out how to turn off power at transfer switch keeping the gen from coming on.

 

[Norcal]

They did put in a auto transfer switch for the Gen. The main service and the gen feeds it and then there is a 15 foot cable run to the main panel. On the first inspection, the transfer switch passed so I have to assume the bond between neutral and ground was OK. He then failed the main box and also required a ground to the copper water pipe (just in case "someone in the future uses it as ground"). I asked him why the need for a separation of ground and neutral and he stated uneven voltages on the neutral. I've looked at the path the cable takes to the garage and am leaning on running the 4th wire (ground) to the garage instead of totally digging up the yard, walks and flowerbeds. The new generator and existing air conditioner are in line and I can run the ground from there out to the service box in the garage.

You need to replace the existing feeder. There is a grounding conductor already there being improperly used as a neutral.

 

[exranger06]

I thought you said the existing wire is in conduit. Why would you need to dig anything up? Just pull the old wire out and pull new wire through the conduit.

 

[MrSurly]

I've looked at the path the cable takes to the garage and am leaning on running the 4th wire (ground) to the garage instead of totally digging up the yard, walks and flowerbeds. The new generator and existing air conditioner are in line and I can run the ground from there out to the service box in the garage.

If understand you, you are creating a bigger problem. It sounds like you are proposing running the '4th wire' via a separate route (different conduit source from the original conduit feeding the garage. You could get away with this for the Equipment grounding conductor (afaik) but not at all (patently unsafe) to use this for the Neutral (Grounded conductor).
This leaves you with thinking I'll just use this new remote wire for the EGC and then use the existing BARE wire in the original conduit as my new Neutral.
Not Allowed. The Grounded Conductor (Neutral) is a Current Carrying Conductor and MUST be insulated AND must be in the same raceway as the UNgrounded Conductor(s).

So, you are back to either re-pull the wire to the garage or dig and replace.

 

[ard]

I thought you said the existing wire is in conduit. Why would you need to dig anything up? Just pull the old wire out and pull new wire through the conduit.

Wondering the same...

 

[jwardcomo]

NO. There is a 3 wire cable to the garage. What I propose to do is insulate the 3rd (bare) wire on the cable inside the main and attach it to the neutral in the main box. Then, insulate the 3rd wire (bare) in the garage box and separate it from where it currently resides on the bonded ground bus and attach to a unbonded neutral bus.
The neutral will be COMPLETELY ISOLATED from ground.
I will then run a bare GROUND wire out from the house and attach that to the ground bus in the box in the garage and the 3 ground rods there, hence 4 wires. How is that different than digging everything up and putting in a 4 wire cable essentially doing the same thing?
There are some steep bends in the conduit. Pulling a 4 wire is not an option.

I want to say how much I appreciate all the comments!

 

[Norcal]

What you propose is not code compliant and there is no other option other then replacing the feed if you want it done right.

 

[MrSurly]

As NorCal said above: It's not 'code'. It's still not insulated, PVC conduit is not "insulation", it's in underground conduit, therefore it is wet.... It's not isolated from Earth. I'd bet that if you megged it you see that.
It's still true that:

Not Allowed. The Grounded Conductor (Neutral) is a Current Carrying Conductor and MUST be insulated AND must be in the same raceway as the UNgrounded Conductor(s).

So, you are back to either re-pull the wire to the garage or dig and replace.

 

[exranger06]

If you want to rig some half-assed, not-to-code solution, then that's up to you I guess. Like I and others have stated, the ONNLLYYY code-compliant way to do this is to get rid of the cable you currently have and install a 4-wire cable. Period! That cable you have is not the correct cable for that application and should've never been installed in the first place.

 

[MrSurly]

I ran a 240V line to my detached garage using 10/2 UF w/ground copper inside plastic conduit.

If you ran this Romex in 1” pipe you should be able to pull it and pull in 4 THHN wires with no issue.
If you put it in smaller pipe you might have to abandon it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thank you for the help!!
Looks to me that I will be doing some digging and putting in 4 wire and probably a new box this week.

I looked at the FAQ. One thing about the FAQ diagram post 2008. My electrical inspector insisted on adding an insulated bus for the neutral in the main box when they put in the generator. The last diagram shows the neutral and ground on the same bonded bus in the main panel.

When I install the new 4 wire I will have to use the unbonded neutral bus. Any potential problems with that?

Your generator ATS transfer switch is NOW the main and that is the only place the neutral should be bonded. You are confusing things when you continue to call your old main "the main."

The old "main" is now a subpanel and should be called a subpanel to help lessen the confusion here...

They did put in a auto transfer switch for the Gen. The main service and the gen feeds it and then there is a 15 foot cable run to the main panel. On the first inspection, the transfer switch passed so I have to assume the bond between neutral and ground was OK. He then failed the main box and also required a ground to the copper water pipe (just in case "someone in the future uses it as ground"). I asked him why the need for a separation of ground and neutral and he stated uneven voltages on the neutral.

I've looked at the path the cable takes to the garage and am leaning on running the 4th wire (ground) to the garage instead of totally digging up the yard, walks and flowerbeds. The new generator and existing air conditioner are in line and I can run the ground from there out to the service box in the garage.

your old main probably failed because it still had a bonded neutral buss.

The ATS became your main and thus any bonded neutral busses in panels past the ATS needed to be isolated.

The inspector was correct.

Yes 4 wires.
While confirming that, I found a bare ground wire ground connected to the neutral bus and by way of exit attached to the box and then on to the copper ground pipe. There is a slight current flow there. The continuity test on the meter chatters and I find a few mlli amps on the meter.

I am going to disconnect that ground from the neutrals as soon as I can figure out how to turn off power at transfer switch keeping the gen from coming on.

Which panel was this in? the old main?

If so, then that ground wire most definitely needs to be moved from the hopefully now insulated/isolated neutral buss over to the bonded ground buss.

I am assuming this is your water line bond.

This shouldve been corrected by the contractor who installed the gen and ATS.

The current flow is neutral current taking an alternate pathway back to the source(transformer). This creates a shock hazard.

This is why its important to have the neutral bond in ONLY ONE PLACE and to make sure that the neutral conductors are insulated.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You need to replace the existing feeder. There is a grounding conductor already there being improperly used as a neutral.

Exactly!

NO. There is a 3 wire cable to the garage. What I propose to do is insulate the 3rd (bare) wire on the cable inside the main and attach it to the neutral in the main box. Then, insulate the 3rd wire (bare) in the garage box and separate it from where it currently resides on the bonded ground bus and attach to a unbonded neutral bus.
The neutral will be COMPLETELY ISOLATED from ground.
I will then run a bare GROUND wire out from the house and attach that to the ground bus in the box in the garage and the 3 ground rods there, hence 4 wires. How is that different than digging everything up and putting in a 4 wire cable essentially doing the same thing?
There are some steep bends in the conduit. Pulling a 4 wire is not an option.

I want to say how much I appreciate all the comments!

The original 10/2 UF cable you ran was never code compliant because you are using an uninsulated bare wire for the neutral. The ground wire in 10/2 UF is NOT insulated.

How would you insulate the bare ground wire under the UF jacket?

And if you instead propose to run an insulated white neutral on a seperate pathway that is a major NO NO and a code violation.

The methods you propose are just making an already hazardous and dangerous install more of a sh*t pile hack job.

Do it right!!

Pull out the old and pull in 4 new wires...

What you propose is not code compliant and there is no other option other then replacing the feed if you want it done right.

As NorCal said above: It's not 'code'. It's still not insulated, PVC conduit is not "insulation", it's in underground conduit, therefore it is wet.... It's not isolated from Earth. I'd bet that if you megged it you see that.
It's still true that:

It always amazes me how someone is so stubborn that they continue to suggest more hazardous and dangerous methods to correct an already hazardous and dangerous install even when there are multiple people telling them how to do it correctly...

DO IT RIGHT OR DONT DO IT ALL...

If you ran this Romex in 1” pipe you should be able to pull it and pull in 4 THHN wires with no issue.
If you put it in smaller pipe you might have to abandon it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OP- what is the size of the pipe you ran?

Even 3/4" can have a #6 THWN feeder...

 

[MrSurly]

NO. There is a 3 wire cable to the garage. What I propose to do is insulate the 3rd (bare) wire on the cable inside the main and attach it to the neutral in the main box. Then, insulate the 3rd wire (bare) in the garage box and separate it from where it currently resides on the bonded ground bus and attach to a unbonded neutral bus.
The neutral will be COMPLETELY ISOLATED from ground.
I will then run a bare GROUND wire out from the house and attach that to the ground bus in the box in the garage and the 3 ground rods there, hence 4 wires. How is that different than digging everything up and putting in a 4 wire cable essentially doing the same thing?
There are some steep bends in the conduit. Pulling a 4 wire is not an option.

I'm supposing that by "steep bends" you mean to say that rather than conduit, the pipe is white PVC with plumbing ells?

 

[jwardcomo]

I'm supposing that by "steep bends" you mean to say that rather than conduit, the pipe is white PVC with plumbing ells?

No. It was a belt and suspenders type thing as I wanted to make sure the cable did not get damaged so I used an undewrground rated cable and conduit but some of the run is so convoluted I could not seal the conduit.. There are 80 years worth of roots and it was not a very straight run.

I got it. I'll get the 4 conductor cable. and redo it correctly. Thanks to all!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No. It was a belt and suspenders type thing as I wanted to make sure the cable did not get damaged so I used an undewrground rated cable and conduit but some of the run is so convoluted I could not seal the conduit.. There are 80 years worth of roots and it was not a very straight run.

I got it. I'll get the 4 conductor cable. and redo it correctly. Thanks to all!

what do you mean by this? You mean you couldnt glue the conduit together?

 

[MrSurly]

what do you mean by this? You mean you couldnt glue the conduit together?

I'm guessing that since he's using UF-B that the conduit is 'redundant' as far as rating... but maybe helpful as armor*?

 

[jwardcomo]

I start digging next week. New 4 conductor cable.
Thanks to everyone for their help!

 

[jwardcomo]

I've replaced the old 3 wire cable with 4 wire, installed a new sub panel, isolated the neutrals from the grounds and grounded the box and ground bar with 2- 8 foot ground rods. I figure that this may be a good time to run a 240v line to my compressor and table saw. I haven't checked wiring on the compressor or saw yet but I have a question. Seems to me I defeat the purpose of all this if I join the neutral with the grounds at the saw and compressor if they are not set up for an isolated neutral. The saw is 13 years old, the compressor is new.
Thanks!

 

[mike93lx]

I've replaced the old 3 wire cable with 4 wire, installed a new sub panel, isolated the neutrals from the grounds and grounded the box and ground bar with 2- 8 foot ground rods. I figure that this may be a good time to run a 240v line to my compressor and table saw. I haven't checked wiring on the compressor or saw yet but I have a question. Seems to me I defeat the purpose of all this if I join the neutral with the grounds at the saw and compressor if they are not set up for an isolated neutral. The saw is 13 years old, the compressor is new.
Thanks!

Good on you for taking everyone's advice and upgrading.

Why would you join neutrals and grounds? A table saw and compressor should be three wire only, two hots and a ground

 

[exranger06]

If the compressor and saw are 240V, you don't need to run a neutral wire to them at all. Install a double-pole breaker, run two hot legs from the breaker to the machine, and run a ground wire from the ground bar in the panel to the machine. Done. No neutral wire involved.

 

[jwardcomo]

OK. I think I get it. No current goes through the ground--neutral not needed for 240v motor.
Thanks!!!!!

 

[Arkansas COB]

This thread is right on time. The link to the older thread with the diagrams is spot on and easy to understand.
Now because Im a COB (cheap old ******* ) I have to ask this question knowing the answer I'll get from deep pockets here ( That said with a smile and no insult intended ) I still want to know.
I have a 18' x 30' loafing shed that I enclosed the front on. To get power out there I have a 125' power cord that I made with 12/3 stranded copper. It plugs into an outside plug on the house that is on a 10 amp breaker then lays on the ground to the shed where I plug into another 12/3 cord that is wired up to 4 plugs along the wall.
I have used this system for the past 20 yrs. All I power in the shed is 6 T12 fluorescent lights. If I need it the air compressor and the usual power tools and a 110 flux core welder. Have never tripped a breaker in all the years.
Well Im tired of unpluging the cord and rolling it up everytime it rains or I have to mow so I'm fixin to bury me some wire.
My plan is 50amp breaker in the box on the house that the meter is on . Bury outdoor rated 8 ga or 10 ga wire in sch 40 to shop. Put sub-panel in shop on a 50amp breaker. Run 3 or 4 seperate 110 lines in shed on 10amp breakers for the lights and tools when needed.

Now the COB question if you are still with me :
Based on the information above can I get by with a 10/2 w/g solid and go 3 wire feeder ( COB WAY ) or go 8/3 w/g stranded which gives me my 4 wire feeder ?

Oh and Im going 115' panel to panel
I am in the country and have no codes to follow.

COB

 

[mike93lx]

No, you can't run a 3 wire feeder for 240v service. Have you actually read this thread?

10 also isn't adequate for 50a feed.

 

[exranger06]

This thread is right on time. The link to the older thread with the diagrams is spot on and easy to understand.
Now because Im a COB (cheap old ******* ) I have to ask this question knowing the answer I'll get from deep pockets here ( That said with a smile and no insult intended ) I still want to know.
I have a 18' x 30' loafing shed that I enclosed the front on. To get power out there I have a 125' power cord that I made with 12/3 stranded copper. It plugs into an outside plug on the house that is on a 10 amp breaker then lays on the ground to the shed where I plug into another 12/3 cord that is wired up to 4 plugs along the wall.
I have used this system for the past 20 yrs. All I power in the shed is 6 T12 fluorescent lights. If I need it the air compressor and the usual power tools and a 110 flux core welder. Have never tripped a breaker in all the years.
Well Im tired of unpluging the cord and rolling it up everytime it rains or I have to mow so I'm fixin to bury me some wire.
My plan is 50amp breaker in the box on the house that the meter is on . Bury outdoor rated 8 ga or 10 ga wire in sch 40 to shop. Put sub-panel in shop on a 50amp breaker. Run 3 or 4 seperate 110 lines in shed on 10amp breakers for the lights and tools when needed.

Now the COB question if you are still with me :
Based on the information above can I get by with a 10/2 w/g solid and go 3 wire feeder ( COB WAY ) or go 8/3 w/g stranded which gives me my 4 wire feeder ?

Oh and Im going 115' panel to panel
I am in the country and have no codes to follow.

COB

1. I have never seen a 10 amp breaker. 15 amps is as small as they come
2. When you refer to wire as "10/3" that refers to a CABLE with 3 conductors in it, such as a NM-b (Romex) cable. That type of cable is not allowed outdoors or underground at all. You should clarify which type of wire you intend to use
3. 10 gauge is not big enough for 50A. 8 gauge I believe is big enough if you use THWN wires in conduit.
4. Keep your current setup a little while longer until you've saved up enough money to do the job right with a 4-wire feeder.

 

[Bert_]

1. I have never seen a 10 amp breaker. 15 amps is as small as they come

10 Amp breakers can be had for normal panels. I've got a few 10 amp GE THQL's (those are the regular plug in style) around. I have used them for control circuits.

 

[Norcal]

10 Amp breakers can be had for normal panels. I've got a few 10 amp GE THQL's (those are the regular plug in style) around. I have used them for control circuits.

Have a few QO110, QOU110, breakers myself.

 

[jwardcomo]

I thought I posted that I've run 3w w ground out to the garage with a new box and unbounded neutral. All is well on that front. 220 for the compressor and saw so load is more balanced.

While connecting the new cable to the main, I noticed that the 220 line to the air conditioner compressor has a 2 wire w ground and the ground was attached to the neutral with part of the bare wire touching the grounds. Should I run a 3 wire there as well or just move the wire back to the ground bus?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I thought I posted that I've run 3w w ground out to the garage with a new box and unbounded neutral. All is well on that front. 220 for the compressor and saw so load is more balanced.

While connecting the new cable to the main, I noticed that the 220 line to the air conditioner compressor has a 2 wire w ground and the ground was attached to the neutral with part of the bare wire touching the grounds. Should I run a 3 wire there as well or just move the wire back to the ground bus?

If its your main service panel, meaning no disconnets between it and the meter, then grounds on the neutral bar is fine since the neutral bar should be bounded here.

 

[jwardcomo]

Thought I would update this post. The garage was rewired correctly with 4 wire. The electricians who updated the main panel for the new gen rechecked their work. It took 2 calls to the local electric company but they finally came out and ran a load test from the pole to the house. The neutral on the pole was loose and arcing. I assume that was a factor in causing uneven voltage on the two legs in my home and the voltage drop for the compressor causing the breaker to trip on start up. In the end, it was a good problem as, thanks to you guys, the garage is updated and my compressor, table saw and soon the band saw are on 220.