Pole building insulation - help in figuring out best course of action

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So I am starting the process of getting quotes for a 40x30 build. Some of the stick-build rough figures are quite high, in my opinion, so I have entertained doing a pole building.
Either way, I might end up insulating and heating/cooling down the road. Really depends on usage. If my boys or daughter (8,8 and 5 respectively) get into doing projects/builds then the money spent later will be worth it. If not, I still have a place to keep my stuff dry and out of the attached garage which will make my wife happy!
The building itself would be pretty simple - 2 big doors and 1 man door on 1 eave end - no windows. 12 ft walls for a possible future lift. 4/12 pitch trusses with scissor type over the lift area. 1 foot overhang all around.

I don't know much about pole building and am doing homework on them. Feels like I can get that done more economically around here compare to stick. At least this gets me an enclosed structure!
Where I am confused is how best to setup up for later insulation? I read about Tyvek, double bubble, etc.
What is the best course of action for no insulation initially - with possible full insulation completely (drywalled)at a later point in time?
I live in Richmond, VA so we can get 100+ in the summer and in the teens/single digit in the winter as our extremes.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Joe_K]

For the walls, 2x6 bookshelf girts 24" on center, R23 Rockwool batts between the bookshelves, vapor barrier, wall covering of choice.

For the ceiling, metal ceiling liner, blow in insulation. Make sure you get eaves and vented soffit/ridge vent.

 

[Voi]

What is the best course of action for no insulation initially - with possible full insulation completely (drywalled)at a later point in time?

I'm in the same boat. Here are some thoughts.

Have your trusses rated for and spaced to allow for future drywall installation. Make sure the soffits and ridge are ventilated at initial construction.

Consider bookshelf girts instead of regular girts. Bookshelf girts and more labor intensive initially but give you attachment points for both exterior metal siding and interior drywall and also 24" O.C. spacing for insulation batts, albeit horizontal instead of vertical.

Some people end up adding bookshelf girts to regular girts or even building regular framed walls between columns after initial construction. Both seem very wasteful to me.

Remember, the more you make a pole barn into a finished building the less the cost savings vs a conventional build. Make sure things like the truss spacing and bookshelf girts are in your bids as you make your decision.

 

[Voi]

For the ceiling, metal ceiling liner, blow in insulation.

I forgot to mention this. With a metal liner you might get away with a cheaper truss package and farther apart spacing than what would be needed for drywall.

 

[jpcjguy]

I'm in the same boat. Here are some thoughts.

Have your trusses rated for and spaced to allow for future drywall installation. Make sure the soffits and ridge are ventilated at initial construction.

Consider bookshelf girts instead of regular girts. Bookshelf girts and more labor intensive initially but give you attachment points for both exterior metal siding and interior drywall and also 24" O.C. spacing for insulation batts, albeit horizontal instead of vertical.

Some people end up adding bookshelf girts to regular girts or even building regular framed walls between columns after initial construction. Both seem very wasteful to me.

Remember, the more you make a pole barn into a finished building the less the cost savings vs a conventional build. Make sure things like the truss spacing and bookshelf girts are in your bids as you make your decision.

Excellent points Voi. Appreciate the feedback. My main worries are the "hard to fix" issues - like "you should/should not have wrapped it before the metal went on" or "you should/should not have had done a bubble barrier before the metal went on", etc..

 

[Voi]

My main worries are the "hard to fix" issues - like "you should/should not have wrapped it before the metal went on" or "you should/should not have had done a bubble barrier before the metal went on", etc..

Don't do one of those double bubble, radiant barrier things. I think they rarely make sense and in a pole barn that may be finished some day they really don't make sense.

House wrap is another question. Are you planning on typical metal siding or do you want to use regular siding?

 

[jpcjguy]

I have been reading about "bookshelf" girts. Found this information:

"Use a commercial girt one size larger than the columns (2×8 on a 6×6 post, etc.), setting the commercial girt so 1-1/2″ hangs past the exterior face of the column. Wrap the framing with a well sealed high quality building wrap.

You will find this installation method compensates for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits – electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3′ in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall."

from this website: http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/

Sounds like a good idea with the 2x8s - but there is the mention of house wrap!!

 

[jpcjguy]

Don't do one of those double bubble, radiant barrier things. I think they rarely make sense and in a pole barn that may be finished some day they really don't make sense.

House wrap is another question. Are you planning on typical metal siding or do you want to use regular siding?

If I go pole - it would be the metal siding - probably a DIYPolebarns kit and someone install it.

 

[Voi]

Sounds like a good idea with the 2x8s - but there is the mention of house wrap!!

That's interesting and makes sense.

Hansen has a lot of articles on their site. I'd see if they go into house wrap in any others.

 

[jpcjguy]

That's interesting and makes sense.

Hansen has a lot of articles on their site. I'd see if they go into house wrap in any others.

Read a couple more articles and here is the basis:
"What house wrap is not, is a vapor barrier or an insulation. I’ve seen instances where people have applied house wrap directly between roof purlins and roof steel, in an effort to control condensation. House wrap is quite permeable; any warm moist air which would rise to it will pass through to the underside of the roof steel and condense."

He pretty much says - for the walls - use wrap, for the roof - nope!

 

[jack stand]

I'm in the same boat. Here are some thoughts.


Remember, the more you make a pole barn into a finished building the less the cost savings vs a conventional build. Make sure things like the truss spacing and bookshelf girts are in your bids as you make your decision.

Great post!

 

[jack stand]

The house wrap is very inexpensive and I put it under all my metal. Insist on Typar or Tyvek (none of the woven "cheap tarp looking stuff) along with normal taping, lapping practices just as on a residential home. Metal does leak both water & air, and a surprising amount of air. As the builder, I put it on even unheated spaces, at this point it's just a little labor, but for anyone planning on heating & finishing it later, it's a must.

 

[Voi]

If I go pole - it would be the metal siding - probably a DIYPolebarns kit and someone install it.

Does DIY Polebarns allow you to compare trusses rated and spaced to hold drywall + insulation versus metal + insulation?

 

[jpcjguy]

Does DIY Polebarns allow you to compare trusses rated and spaced to hold drywall + insulation versus metal + insulation?

I don't think it is in the online process but you can call them and customize as you need and they will price it for you.

 

[chaosracing]

Don't do one of those double bubble, radiant barrier things. I think they rarely make sense and in a pole barn that may be finished some day they really don't make sense.

House wrap is another question. Are you planning on typical metal siding or do you want to use regular siding?

It makes sense to put it under the roof panels, even if it wont be "finished" on the inside for a while. It helps prevent condensation from forming on the underside of the metal panels, causing problems down the road. Even if you insulate the ceiling later on, it still helps as some moist hot air can escape into the area above the ceiling and if no barrier is there, will form condensation on the underside of the roof panels. Its cheap insurance.

 

[ilovevocs]

The house wrap is very inexpensive and I put it under all my metal. Insist on Typar or Tyvek (none of the woven "cheap tarp looking stuff) along with normal taping, lapping practices just as on a residential home. Metal does leak both water & air, and a surprising amount of air. As the builder, I put it on even unheated spaces, at this point it's just a little labor, but for anyone planning on heating & finishing it later, it's a must.

In reference to tyvek. Most Buliders attempt to staple it!

They will tell you they have been doing it that way for 50 years!

It doesn’t make it right. Read the data sheets; I worked for an architect who claimed he developed them.

Needless to say he schooled a Project manager and a fleet of carpenters from
One of the largest construction management firms the USA.

 

[chaosracing]

Your options vary depending on cost and time frame. The absolute best insulation would be spray foam, but thats expensive and you would want to do it all at the same time to keep costs down. Fiberglass or rockwool batts are very DIY friendly and can be done as you get money available and can be one in sections. For your ceiling, blown in would be the easiest to do, just make sure no matter the insulation that you put baffles in the eaves to allow airflow above the insulation.

I have a pole building that was just built. I am starting to place 1" rigid insulation in between the wall girts, then I will put 2x4 studs in between the poles at 24" oc to put r-19 fiberglass batts as I have the money to do so.

 

[cj7jeep81]

I'm insulating mine as time goes by, and just framing out the walls in between the posts. My posts are laminated 2x6's, and I'm making my walls out of 2x4's with a 2x6 treated bottom plate. I have a few more 2x4's going across the studs in the back, which makes it easy to attach them to the exterior girts. This allows me to put in 6" insulation (if I want), and makes it easy to run electric, as I run it behind the verticle 2x4's.

It does add cost, but it is still significantly cheaper than stick built (at least for me). With stick built, these would all be 2x6's instead of 2x4's, and the concrete was significantly cheaper. The other big advantage is I've been using my building for several years now, and can finish out the interior as I have time/money.

 

[stm317]

My building has Tyvek under the metal on the walls, and "double bubble" under the metal on the roof. If you won't be insulating it right away, I'd consider that to be the minimum level of prep. It's stuff that's much easier to do before the metal goes on. You can always add insulation down the road. And it keeps condensation at bay while you're using the barn until you get the chance to insulate later.

I've installed 1.5" thick rigid foam panels between my posts and the metal. It rests on the girts and does a wonderful job of eliminating air movement without intruding into the building at all. Eventually, the walls will be framed out with traditional studs and I'll add batts of insulation. This ensures that I've filled the entire wall cavity with insulation, leaving no empty space and should provide something like R30 in my walls. It will also keep everything flush with my posts so that I'm not losing valuable sqft in my building.

Insulating the ceiling is the best way to keep your building comfortable. Your options here may be limited by your building design. Flat ceiling or vaulted? Usable attic space or not? The cheapest and easiest way to get maximum r value in a ceiling is typically blown cellulose. If you're going to insulate the ceiling right away as part of the initial build, then you can probably skip the "double bubble" under the roof metal. But if you'll be doing the ceiling on your own at a later date and there's nothing under the roof metal, you'll have condensation issues until you get the ceiling insulated.

 

[Voi]

It makes sense to put it under the roof panels, even if it wont be "finished" on the inside for a while. It helps prevent condensation from forming on the underside of the metal panels, causing problems down the road. Even if you insulate the ceiling later on, it still helps as some moist hot air can escape into the area above the ceiling and if no barrier is there, will form condensation on the underside of the roof panels. Its cheap insurance.

I probably haven't had enough coffee yet. How does one install the double bubble on a building with a ventilated ridge and soffits?

Does it get attached to the underside of the purlins and then just stops short of the ridge vent? Or is the ventilation path between the roof and the double bubble?

Also, I thought the stuff was a bit pricey. Like over 50 cents a square foot for material and labor installed.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I probably haven't had enough coffee yet. How does one install the double bubble on a building with a ventilated ridge and soffits?

Does it get attached to the underside of the purlins and then just stops short of the ridge vent? Or is the ventilation path between the roof and the double bubble?

Also, I thought the stuff was a bit pricey. Like over 50 cents a square foot for material and labor installed.

Id def skip the double bubble isulation also. If you've got a vented ridge and soffit set up you shouldn't have any condensation dripping down.
I'm in the process of putting 1" EPS panels between the trusses to keep it more open. It won't be the best but it'll work for what I need to do.
You'll pretty much seal off the inside of the barn and if you don't block off your soffit vents, the air will flow up through the vents, through the ribs in the metal, and out the ridge cap.
I used 1 ½ plastic cap nails and sealed up the edges with insulating tape and expanding foam. It's not the greatest way to insulate the ceiling but its better than nothing

 

[jack stand]

In reference to tyvek. Most Buliders attempt to staple it!

They will tell you they have been doing it that way for 50 years!

It doesn’t make it right. Read the data sheets; I worked for an architect who claimed he developed them.

Needless to say he schooled a Project manager and a fleet of carpenters from
One of the largest construction management firms the USA.

I use cap nails, (sparingly) then tape over them.
I know exactly what you mean about 3 guy's with hammer tackers putting in a million holes in your new "wrap''.

 

[Firebrick43]

Bookshelf girts allow some benifits such as being able to hang things on the wall as you please. However superior performance can be achieved with much less cost. If you hang 2x4x20' girts on the outside (and later inside) of the post, labor and material cost is much reduced without loss of structural integrity. Also thermal performance increases due to minimal thermal bridging.

I would personally put 1.5 inch eps foam in between the girts on the outside. If you use a foam gun to seal the foam panels to the girts and post it will be tight and eliminate any need for a tyvek barrier. It would be easier to install this before installing metal. In fact I would install a top header girt to get everything square. Then rip you foam to 20.5" place a bead of foam on top of the grade board and face of post. Set your 20.5" eps on top and cap nail to post. Run a bead of foam on top of the eps and set your next girt on top and nail to post. This goes much faster than trying to fit them later.

Save the 7" off cut to glue down to the concrete between the post. No wasted material

Next get fiberglass batts in rolls the width of your post. https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/insulation/insulation-rolls-batts/silvercote-r-19-post-frame-insulation-roll-6-x-60-360-sq-ft/100768/p-1476166872069-c-5780.htm?tid=-1160401456276034081&ipos=3

Menards has it in 4' and 6' rolls. An insulation supply house can get it in 8'

Screw up two 2x4 block in between the top header girts. Screw 2 2x4 together with the top edge of the insulation between them and hang the screwed together 2x4s on the blocks you just put up. Stuff a piece of unfaced batt in between the 2x4 and inside header board.

Now apply your inside girts and metal liner panel (my preference) or OSB

I would use white metal liner on the ceiling no matter what. Not only does it go up quick and reflects light down into the building better than anything short of a mirror. It's of my belief that drywall has no place in a pole barn. Exterior screwed metal will leak slightly eventually when the neoprene washers crack as the oxidize and then damage the drywall. For the same reason I would use fiberglass or rock wool in the ceiling as opposed to cellulose like I would suggest with other roof systems. If you use hidden fastener panels then I would use cellulose.

 

[chaosracing]

I probably haven't had enough coffee yet. How does one install the double bubble on a building with a ventilated ridge and soffits?

Does it get attached to the underside of the purlins and then just stops short of the ridge vent? Or is the ventilation path between the roof and the double bubble?

Also, I thought the stuff was a bit pricey. Like over 50 cents a square foot for material and labor installed.

The double bubble is rolled out on top of the purlins, right under the metal. At the ridge, the keep an opening to allow air to circulate out. The double bubble is basically a vapor barrier with a little bit of thermal properties and a radien t barrier to prevent condensation from forming on the underside of the roof panels.
My cost installed was around $0.35 cents a square foot. My total cost for it was around $450, cheap insurance in my opinion. Now I had Amish builders so my labor cost was significantly lower than other builders (and much better in my opinion) If I use a torpedo heater (or any kind of heater) in the garage before insulating the ceiling, the underside of the panels wont sweat.

 

[bullnerd]

Three words....Blanket insulation!

Blown in ceiling of course.