Copper or Aluminum

[Arkansas COB]

Ok I made comments in another thread and got my hand slapped because I was trying to be cheap and didnt pay attention to what was being said..
MY Mistake
after a bit of studying and I hope more understanding I'm confused on Copper or Aluminum.

First of all I'm in the country. DO NOT have to follow codes but I want safe and do not want to burn the barn or house down.

Coming off botton of meter box. My house set up like this outside.

50 amp breaker. 125' run to the barn. Bury 18" to 24" in sch 40 pvc.

4 wire hook up in sub panel like this

If I use copper it will be 8 awg thhn/thwn-2 for all 4 wires

If I use aluminum it will be 6 awg xhhw-2 for all 4 wires

Which wire will be best to use Copper or Aluminum or is it just personal choice ?


No big loads in barn and no 220 V hook ups.

Thanks

COB

 

[Norcal]

Ok I made comments in another thread and got my hand slapped because I was trying to be cheap and didnt pay attention to what was being said..
MY Mistake
after a bit of studying and I hope more understanding I'm confused on Copper or Aluminum.

First of all I'm in the country. DO NOT have to follow codes but I want safe and do not want to burn the barn or house down.

Coming off botton of meter box. My house set up like this outside.

50 amp breaker. 125' run to the barn. Bury 18" to 24" in sch 40 pvc.

4 wire hook up in sub panel like this

If I use copper it will be 8 awg thhn/thwn-2 for all 4 wires

If I use aluminum it will be 6 awg xhhw-2 for all 4 wires

Which wire will be best to use Copper or Aluminum or is it just personal choice ?


No big loads in barn and no 220 V hook ups.

Thanks

COB

Under 100A I prefer copper, but as long as AL is installed correctly there will be no issues, as to 220V you need to be in the Middle East, Africa, Eastern Europe, or Russia to have 220V available.

 

[tyme2par4]

There isn't really any benefit to one over the other, as long as the connections are all rated for aluminum wires (any main lugs, and most 50A breakers will be).
Aluminum wire will save you a fair amount of money, and will be perfectly safe if terminated correctly. Make sure you have some anti-oxidant paste on all the connections. And use a torque wrench.

 

[mike93lx]

You may not be getting inspected, but you DO have to follow code. Whether you choose to or not is up to you.

Aluminum is fine

 

[dcg9381]

I have a master electrician friend. I did a "utility install" - which is a 15KV transformer to 320 240V - meter socket, and 2 x 200 amp panels. He supplied me aluminum wire.
I replaced it with copper. Why? Because for very very short runs (inter-panel wiring) it's not that much more and has less issues with oxidation, heat, and expansion when run to capacity. BOTH can do the job.

He often complained about customers who see aluminum wires "back out" - they apparently heat more, tend to get lose in the crimp if you don't properly install them.

From that panel to a shop, about 80' away, I ran 2-2-2-4 aluminum. Copper would have cost 3x as much. Your diagram looks right to me in terms of breaking the neutral away from the ground at the sub panel.

Things to watch with aluminum:
1) Make sure the exposed conductor is fresh.
2) Use anti-ox compound on all connections
3) Torque to spec.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok I made comments in another thread and got my hand slapped because I was trying to be cheap and didnt pay attention to what was being said..
MY Mistake
after a bit of studying and I hope more understanding I'm confused on Copper or Aluminum.

Aluminum will save you money. Thats the main difference.

First of all I'm in the country. DO NOT have to follow codes but I want safe and do not want to burn the barn or house down.

If you dont have to follow codes, then why bother coming on here? Why bother doing 4-wire with isolated neutral? Why not do bonded 3-wire? But yet you want it safe?

The truth is you DO need to follow code regardless of where you are and doing so will ensure a safe install that wont burn down the house.

Having the attitude that you dont have to follow code is the wrong way to start off here...

There isn't really any benefit to one over the other, as long as the connections are all rated for aluminum wires (any main lugs, and most 50A breakers will be).
Aluminum wire will save you a fair amount of money, and will be perfectly safe if terminated correctly. Make sure you have some anti-oxidant paste on all the connections. And use a torque wrench.

Anti-ox is only required if the wire manufacturer requires it. and using a torque wrench requires knowing the proper torque values.

I have a master electrician friend. I did a "utility install" - which is a 15KV transformer to 320 240V - meter socket, and 2 x 200 amp panels. He supplied me aluminum wire.
I replaced it with copper. Why? Because for very very short runs (inter-panel wiring) it's not that much more and has less issues with oxidation, heat, and expansion when run to capacity. BOTH can do the job.

Almost all utilities use aluminum without issue. hmmm

He often complained about customers who see aluminum wires "back out" - they apparently heat more, tend to get lose in the crimp if you don't properly install them.

When aluminum wire is terminated properly, it will not "back out" (whatever that means.)

Things to watch with aluminum:
1) Make sure the exposed conductor is fresh.
2) Use anti-ox compound on all connections
3) Torque to spec.

you forgot something here.

The anti-ox is supposed to be brushed onto all the strands after any oxidation is removed.

And anti-ox is only required by NEC IF the manufacturer calls for it.

 

[Arkansas COB]

do you use the anti-ox compound at the 50 amp breaker also ? I know the use it on all the lug connections.

Did not know about tourque specs though.
Is this for ALL exposed conductor including the 50 amp breraker ?

Where do you find these specs ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The torque specs should be listed on the panel label. And there are different values for different lugs and sizes.

Study your panel's label.

 

[RPH]

I look to the device that I wire to for the torque values. It’s becoming a requirement on new start up of machines that every wire connection be checked for torque and connection engagement. Rolling down the road can cause issues and has.

 

[alfredeneuman]

One Warning: Never go back and RE torque aluminum wire.
The torque specs take into account the "cold flow" characteristics of the wire.
If you retorque it enough times you run the risk of cutting the wire in half because it is so soft.

 

[Arkansas COB]

Thank You wyliesdiesels for your input.

Just stating that I do not have to follow codes as meaning I do not have to get things inspected nor do i have to have a licensed or master anything do work on my place. That is the only part of attitude I have.

I do as I stated want things safe and do not want to burn the house down. Because of this I come here looking for advice and direction. The other 2 forums I belong to could never touch the knowledge I find here on these kinds of subjects.

COB

 

[Arkansas COB]

The torque specs should be listed on the panel label. And there are different values for different lugs and sizes.

Study your panel's label.

and if there are no labels on this panel ? Was bought from a selvedge dealer. Yea before you even say it I should go to HD and get me a new panel.

I have done a quick google search and all I got was confused

 

[wyliesdiesels]

and if there are no labels on this panel ? Was bought from a selvage dealer. Yea before you even say it I should go to HD and get me a new panel.

I have done a quick google search and all I got was confused

oh boy.

Well without the panel info, at least a make and model, its gonna be damn near impossible to figure out the specs.

Do you even know the brand? Or which breakers are listed for it??

Hopefully you didnt buy an old shitsco(zinsco) panel. Or god forbid an FPE

yes if i were you i would buy a new panel. Your gonna waste more time trying to figure out what you have than it would cost to get a new panel

 

[Copymutt]

Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

 

[kinglake]

I'm in Arkansas as well, and have almost the exact same setup. I ended up using mobile home feeder wire as it was basically the same price. That let me breaker it at 90amp also. I doubt I will ever need the additional 40amps, but since it was at no additional cost, it was a no brainer.

 

[mike93lx]

Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

Oh, god, not this **** again

 

[Norcal]

Oh, god, not this **** again

Agreed, pure ignorance.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

lol according to what? the urban legend code book?

Time for you to take some classes...

 

[tyme2par4]

lol according to what? the urban legend code book?

Time for you to take some classes...

According to the HGTV remodeling shows

"We found aluminum wiring in your house, so we're going to have to rewire the whole house. That means no new bathroom for you."

 

[CJ7VFR]

Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

lol according to what? the urban legend code book?

Time for you to take some classes...

It may not be in any code, but there are municipalities that will require you to replace aluminum wire with copper when you want to sell your house.

How do I know this? Because where I live, in a small town in the central part of New Jersey, this is a requirement for all homes in order to be given a COO for the new home owners.

My former next door neighbor, who lived here since his home was built in 1956, and sold his home last year to move into a retirement village, had to replace all the aluminum wiring in the house before our township zoning officer would grant any type of COO to the buyers.

According to the zoning officer, because aluminum and copper expand at different rates/temperatures, any connections made within the house, where aluminum wire and copper wire came together, or where any aluminum wire was connected to the copper bus bars of switches and receptacles, could eventually come loose, causing a potential for a fire.

So many people are afraid of the stories that they have heard about aluminum wire inside houses causing issues, that having said wire in the house can cause people to pull out of a potential sale of the house.

Code or not, or whether you like it or not, and call it **** or whatever, it does cause people to have issues selling their homes if aluminum wire is inside the walls.

And that is not good, which is why people around here replace any/all aluminum wiring inside their home BERFORE they put it up for sale.

Jim

 

[ishiboo]

It may not be in any code, but there are municipalities that will require you to replace aluminum wire with copper when you want to sell your house.

How do I know this? Because where I live, in a small town in the central part of New Jersey, this is a requirement for all homes in order to be given a COO for the new home owners.

My former next door neighbor, who lived here since his home was built in 1956, and sold his home last year to move into a retirement village, had to replace all the aluminum wiring in the house before our township zoning officer would grant any type of COO to the buyers.

According to the zoning officer, because aluminum and copper expand at different rates/temperatures, any connections made within the house, where aluminum wire and copper wire came together, or where any aluminum wire was connected to the copper bus bars of switches and receptacles, could eventually come loose, causing a potential for a fire.

So many people are afraid of the stories that they have heard about aluminum wire inside houses causing issues, that having said wire in the house can cause people to pull out of a potential sale of the house.

Code or not, or whether you like it or not, and call it **** or whatever, it does cause people to have issues selling their homes if aluminum wire is inside the walls.

And that is not good, which is why people around here replace any/all aluminum wiring inside their home BERFORE they put it up for sale.

Jim

I think you are confusing 15A/20A branch circuit wiring (low-gauge old way of wiring that had problems) with larger-gauge aluminum wire with Al/Cu rated connections. NO municipality is requiring aluminum feeders to be replaced. Period. And there is nothing unsafe about it, there is nothing controversial, and it has never been an issue at the time of sale unless it's to another uneducated person, in which case who knows what else is going to be an issue. LVLs instead of steel?

 

[CJ7VFR]

I think you are confusing 15A/20A branch circuit wiring (low-gauge old way of wiring that had problems) with larger-gauge aluminum wire with Al/Cu rated connections. NO municipality is requiring aluminum feeders to be replaced. Period. And there is nothing unsafe about it, there is nothing controversial, and it has never been an issue at the time of sale unless it's to another uneducated person, in which case who knows what else is going to be an issue. LVLs instead of steel?

I am referring to regular 15/20 amp circuit wiring being replaced anywhere it is connected within the walls of the house, which you are also referring too.

Now as to the feeders, then yes, that is all perfectly legal, code compliant, and there has never been a problem with it here, or anywhere else in my area. As a matter of fact, my garage is fed by an aluminum wire feeder from the main load center in the basement of the house. It was all code compliant and caused no issues at the time of sale.

So to answer your question, I am not confused. We are talking about the same thing as to the difference between branch circuits and feeder circuits.

My other post was to the issue of having aluminum wire inside the walls of a home, and it having an adverse effect on the sale of the house and has to be replaced.

Jim

 

[teamextreme]

So to answer your question, I am not confused. We are talking about the same thing as to the difference between branch circuits and feeder circuits.
Jim

Except this entire thread is about feeders, no where are branch circuits mentioned. You are correct, however, that this is the source of everyone's consternation about Al wiring. They hear it's bad, because it is for 15/20A branch circuits, and translate that to mean it's bad in all instances. Then they post their mis-informed opinions here.

I'm curious about your NJ example where homeowners were forced to remove all Al wiring; did this include large ampacity, single-device circuits such as ranges, where the use of Al is still common even today?

 

[CJ7VFR]

Except this entire thread is about feeders, no where are branch circuits mentioned. You are correct, however, that this is the source of everyone's consternation about Al wiring. They hear it's bad, because it is for 15/20A branch circuits, and translate that to mean it's bad in all instances. Then they post their mis-informed opinions here.

I'm curious about your NJ example where homeowners were forced to remove all Al wiring; did this include large ampacity, single-device circuits such as ranges, where the use of Al is still common even today?

I was referring to this post:

Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

To which several members resorted to using some unique language and references about people being ignorant and in need of an education.

In the post by Copymutt, he said to never have aluminum wire "in a home", and that exterior feed is the place you could use it. So yes, someone did actually mention not using aluminum wire inside the home. That is what my first post was addressing.

He was then bashed for his comment by others who apparently didn't really read what he actually wrote.

As to my town, all aluminum wiring that is inside the walls of the house servicing branch circuits must be replaced. I never said they had to remove any feeders going to an outbuilding, a garage, or anything else like that. Just the wiring inside the walls of the home.

Perhaps I should have said removed and replaced with copper for all branch circuits inside the home. If that is the confusion I have caused, by what I said, then I am sorry for that.

Up until just a few years ago, homes in my town with aluminum wire for branch circuits was still deemed ok, and all connections at switches, receptacles, light fixtures, junction boxes and other areas where the wire was accessible and easy to inspect, would pass inspection as long as all connections were deemed tight and terminated per code.

I think you are 100 percent correct that when someone looks a house, and even hears the words "aluminum wire" they freak out. Much like people do when they hear the word "Radon" and think if they buy the house they will automatically get cancer or something.

Jim

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was referring to this post:

To which several members resorted to using some unique language and references about people being ignorant and in need of an education.

In the post by Copymutt, he said to never have aluminum wire "in a home", and that exterior feed is the place you could use it. So yes, someone did actually mention not using aluminum wire inside the home. That is what my first post was addressing.

He was then bashed for his comment by others who apparently didn't really read what he actually wrote.

As to my town, all aluminum wiring that is inside the walls of the house servicing branch circuits must be replaced. I never said they had to remove any feeders going to an outbuilding, a garage, or anything else like that. Just the wiring inside the walls of the home.

Perhaps I should have said removed and replaced with copper for all branch circuits inside the home. If that is the confusion I have caused, by what I said, then I am sorry for that.

Up until just a few years ago, homes in my town with aluminum wire for branch circuits was still deemed ok, and all connections at switches, receptacles, light fixtures, junction boxes and other areas where the wire was accessible and easy to inspect, would pass inspection as long as all connections were deemed tight and terminated per code.

I think you are 100 percent correct that when someone looks a house, and even hears the words "aluminum wire" they freak out. Much like people do when they hear the word "Radon" and think if they buy the house they will automatically get cancer or something.

Jim

So what about subpanels inside homes fed with aluminum feeders?

you keep saying branch circuits and yet were not referring to branch circuits were referring to BRANCH FEEDERS which are often aluminum and do often go inside the walls of a house.

Nothing wrong with aluminum branch feeders and thats why copymutt got the response he did.

 

[TRWham]

...

My former next door neighbor, who lived here since his home was built in 1956, and sold his home last year to move into a retirement village, had to replace all the aluminum wiring in the house before our township zoning officer would grant any type of COO to the buyers.
...

It is nearly impossible that a house built in 1956 originally had all aluminum wiring. it was not on the market until the mid 60s.

 

[ishiboo]

I am referring to regular 15/20 amp circuit wiring being replaced anywhere it is connected within the walls of the house, which you are also referring too.

Now as to the feeders, then yes, that is all perfectly legal, code compliant, and there has never been a problem with it here, or anywhere else in my area. As a matter of fact, my garage is fed by an aluminum wire feeder from the main load center in the basement of the house. It was all code compliant and caused no issues at the time of sale.

So to answer your question, I am not confused. We are talking about the same thing as to the difference between branch circuits and feeder circuits.

My other post was to the issue of having aluminum wire inside the walls of a home, and it having an adverse effect on the sale of the house and has to be replaced.

Jim

OP is installing a #4-#6 circuit as discussed. Nothing to do with a 15/20amp. Nothing wrong with aluminum in that application, in the walls or anywhere else. I think you're on a different tangent.

 

[Copymutt]

Originally Posted by Copymutt View Post
Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

I expected to get the beat down when I stated this. Thanks for the defenders.
Yes, feeds to subs can originate in a home with Al. Yes code does permit high amp appliances in home to use Al., dryers, ranges.

However, code also at one time permitted Al in residential branch circuits and we all know what the result there was. So, gov. regulations aren't always correct nor in this case safe. I will not use Al except for drops and feeds to home panels. Do as you please within today's code. It may change tomorrow.
Jim

 

[ishiboo]

Originally Posted by Copymutt View Post
Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

I expected to get the beat down when I stated this. Thanks for the defenders.
Yes, feeds to subs can originate in a home with Al. Yes code does permit high amp appliances in home to use Al., dryers, ranges.

However, code also at one time permitted Al in residential branch circuits and we all know what the result there was. So, gov. regulations aren't always correct nor in this case safe. I will not use Al except for drops and feeds to home panels. Do as you please within today's code. It may change tomorrow.
Jim

Except in a few years of aluminum branch circuit wiring, there were tons of issues with it loosening, fires, etc.... much having to do with the devices not being designed to work with aluminum. In several decades of using aluminum for everything else, there are no such problems. It is two different applications.

You're welcome to spend more money on wire for no reason, that's your own business. But to spread the ignorance here to make people think it's unsafe is unfair to others.

 

[Norcal]

The NEC still permits aluminum branch circuit wiring the only problem is nobody makes 10 & 12 AWG NM cable anymore.

 

[Bert_]

Originally Posted by Copymutt View Post
Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

I expected to get the beat down when I stated this. Thanks for the defenders.
Yes, feeds to subs can originate in a home with Al. Yes code does permit high amp appliances in home to use Al., dryers, ranges.

However, code also at one time permitted Al in residential branch circuits and we all know what the result there was. So, gov. regulations aren't always correct nor in this case safe. I will not use Al except for drops and feeds to home panels. Do as you please within today's code. It may change tomorrow.
Jim

Do you also use bolt on panelboards? Maybe spec grade receptacles throughout a house? I doubt it. You don't chose these things because of cost and I've seen more problems with cheap bus in panels and cheap receptacles than aluminum wires.

I use aluminum often because it is cost effective, light weight, easy to work with, and is no more likely to fail than copper if properly installed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Originally Posted by Copymutt View Post
Never aluminum in a home, exterior feed is its place. Hazardous and may haunt you on resale of home. Not the place to put cost first.
Jim

I expected to get the beat down when I stated this. Thanks for the defenders.
Yes, feeds to subs can originate in a home with Al. Yes code does permit high amp appliances in home to use Al., dryers, ranges.

However, code also at one time permitted Al in residential branch circuits and we all know what the result there was. So, gov. regulations aren't always correct nor in this case safe. I will not use Al except for drops and feeds to home panels. Do as you please within today's code. It may change tomorrow.
Jim

not just high amp appliance circuits.

And code still does allow it for branch circuits. The issue was with the alloys used and devices not being properly rated for al.

The NEC code is safe. The issue wasnt the code but rather the alloys of the wire.

Todays aluminum alloys are a lot different than those from the 60s and 70s and are safe and reliable for all uses- branch circuits and feeders.

Anyone who continues to think otherwise is ignorant on the matter. someone who does this for a living should know better.

https://www.southwire.com/commercial/AluminumBuildingWireHistory.htm

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Do you also use bolt on panelboards? Maybe spec grade receptacles throughout a house? I doubt it. You don't chose these things because of cost and I've seen more problems with cheap bus in panels and cheap receptacles than aluminum wires.

Thats a good point.

Copymutt what brand of panels do you use?