Spray Foam Issue

[Mr. Roboto]

Hi Guys,

I posted the same question in my build thread, without any luck, so I thought I would try here. I'm building an addition between my house and garage. It's built on a floating deck of 2x10s, which I've decided to spray foam. They came out to spray it Friday while I was at work. When I got home, I noticed that the foam seems to have pulled away from the joist a good half inch in one joist bay. I would think this would normally be caused by the joist shifting, but I don't think that's possible, since they secured them with a 2x6 cleat as seen from above to prevent specifically that. I have no experience with spray foam... anyone have any thoughts? I'm still waiting for the spray foam company to get back to me, but I'd like to have some more info on this if possible before we speak in case they try and jerk me around. I haven't been able to find much online about this happening from my own searches.

What would cause this? Is the fix as simple as filling the void with some canned spray-foam?

 

[yeldogt]

Boy, that is strange. The foam looks nicely applied ---uniform. The foam is hot and if the wood wet -- it could cause the wood to dry ..... but, not that much movement (would think)

How thick is the foam ? I have never had spray foam retract ... is that typical closed? The foam guys have other foams for touchups -- one or two layers in the void to fill it up I would think.

 

[ybnormal70]

Is is just that one or are there lots of areas that separated?

Kevin

 

[mike93lx]

Tons of hits when i google "spray foam pulling away from studs"...

 

[stm317]

Shrinkage is a known potential issue with spray foam. You'll find tons of results if you google it. From what I've seen in my limited search, it's usually the result of improper application. Either an incorrectly mixed batch, some type of contamination, or it was applied too thick at once, rather than layers.

Unless it's a contamination issue with just that one side of that specific board, there's a good chance that you'll have more shrinkage over time.

 

[Mr. Roboto]

Boy, that is strange. The foam looks nicely applied ---uniform. The foam is hot and if the wood wet -- it could cause the wood to dry ..... but, not that much movement (would think)

How thick is the foam ? I have never had spray foam retract ... is that typical closed? The foam guys have other foams for touchups -- one or two layers in the void to fill it up I would think.

The joists are 2x10, so I'd say it's about 7" thick

Is is just that one or are there lots of areas that separated?

Kevin

Just the one joist bay

Tons of hits when i google "spray foam pulling away from studs"...

You're right. I must have been using the wrong search terms or something before when I was goggling the issue. Reading through them now.

Shrinkage is a known potential issue with spray foam. You'll find tons of results if you google it. From what I've seen in my limited search, it's usually the result of improper application. Either an incorrectly mixed batch, some type of contamination, or it was applied too thick at once, rather than layers.

Unless it's a contamination issue with just that one side of that specific board, there's a good chance that you'll have more shrinkage over time.

Ugh, I hope not.

The company actually just got back to me. They're coming back today to fill in the void. Hopefully I don't have other issues moving forward.

 

[machsnell]

My foam lifted a little when applied at the first bit that hit backside of drywall but that is different it is too uniform.

The company that did mine went around with cans and sealed up all areas that had gaps.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[CarBikeGuy70]

I hate to say this but there is an issue with the installer and/or type of foam used. I had entire first floor exterior walls foamed from the exterior before I resided our house. Installers removed several courses of 1x6 boards used as sheathing and removed the old fiber style insulation. They sprayed the foam into the cavities- it expanded and filled the voids. There were several areas where the foam pushed thru voids in framing(above windows where foundation meets sill in basement)and the foam is almost impossible to pull away from the wood and concrete block. What type of foam did the contract call for? There are many varieties and they are not all equal. Not all installers are as good as they think.

 

[Mr. Roboto]

To be honest, I don't know what type of foam. I'm working with a GC for the addition, who of course subbed out the spray foam. I didn't even think to have specified the foam type. The line item basically just called for "spray-foam floor".

I wasn't home, but they did send someone out today to fill the void. I'll have a look at it when I get back home.

 

[ace10]

Speaking in general...

Spray foam fanbois don't want to acknowledge that this is a problem with the system. Meaning the product, the conditions and the installer.

I don't like the stuff. Won't ever use it. Nobody will change my mind, either.

Rockwool is all I use.

$0.02


OP, if I were you, I would check each and every bay to check for coverage. Physically press on the edges to ensure there is coverage beneath the skin.

 

[PCustoms]

How old (read wet) was the pt joist?

 

[yeldogt]

Speaking in general...

Spray foam fanbois don't want to acknowledge that this is a problem with the system. Meaning the product, the conditions and the installer.

I don't like the stuff. Won't ever use it. Nobody will change my mind, either.

Rockwool is all I use.

$0.02


OP, if I were you, I would check each and every bay to check for coverage. Physically press on the edges to ensure there is coverage beneath the skin.

Have never had this issue -- or actually, any problems. Have only used closed cell foam -- typically 4" .. a tad thicker at the eves. The moisture issue is interesting -- IE moisture too high -- because it's used all the time with old stone and brick building and they can be damp. Trust me I know it sticks -- to the stone or brick.

I agree with you -- would be checking very carefully and I'm not sure I would want to close it up until I'm sure what is up. Would want the reason.

Rockwool is a fine product -- I use it as well (mostly internal). It's just can't match the foam when space it tight.

 

[Marctrees]

Shrinkage I don't know about... but as said above.. the uniform and overall VERY neat application suggests the operator has some good experience

Marc

 

[Mr. Roboto]

thanks for all the feedback guys. I definitely got wrapped up in all of the framing and layout challenges of this project, and didn’t think twice about adding the spray foam with little to no research. Shame on me, and much out of my usual character. i guess the spray foam isn’t as widely accepted as superior as I thought.

Someone asked about the state of the PT used. It was definitely on the very wet side of the spectrum. The foam company called me back after touching up the void and they also stated that wood contamination was likely the cause. They stand behind their work with a warranty, but I’ll have no way of inspecting it after the sheathing goes down. Lesson learned. Thankfully this isn’t a living space. It’s just a large mudroom, so it’s not quite as critical... but I still spent the money to have it done right.

 

[yeldogt]

thanks for all the feedback guys. I definitely got wrapped up in all of the framing and layout challenges of this project, and didn’t think twice about adding the spray foam with little to no research. Shame on me, and much out of my usual character. i guess the spray foam isn’t as widely accepted as superior as I thought.

Someone asked about the state of the PT used. It was definitely on the very wet side of the spectrum. The foam company called me back after touching up the void and they also stated that wood contamination was likely the cause. They stand behind their work with a warranty, but I’ll have no way of inspecting it after the sheathing goes down. Lesson learned. Thankfully this isn’t a living space. It’s just a large mushroom, so it’s not quite as critical... but I still spent the money to have it done right.

It's all relative ... I have been doing it since around 1990 and have never had any issues. It is a superior product .. but you don't want problems ... obviously. Don't really understand what they refer when they say "contamination".

All of the top builders in my area are only using foam at this point ....I'm going to ask my foam guy when I see him. I'm doing about 25k of foam on my next project

 

[JeremiahTRD]

That foam appears to have been sprayed a bit too hot and the cell structure has failed.


This usually happens when first starting spraying or after taking a break and letting the foam sit in the hose for a bit. Which is why you only see it in that bay. It should have been caught by the installer and touched up. As it should have presented itself within a couple hours of spraying.


Otherwise the the product looks pretty good from what I can see.

 

[The FIB]

I just went through this, had foam sprayed last fall, I was going to drywall last spring so it sat over winter with some minor separation. When the weather warmed in the spring the separating accelerated, to the point of me being able to hear random popping noises as it pulled away from the framing. It actually pulled so hard that in a couple of spots it actually twisted the framing. The foam company was contacted in spring, they said let it sit until it stops shrinking, then the will come fix it, it sat and never stopped shrinking, a year later it was still shrinking. The foam company brought in the manufacturer to look at it and take samples, the samples came back "unstable", with a whole list of reasons what might have caused it.
The fix: rip it all out and reapply.
Luckily the foam installer was honorable and stood behind his work, it didn't cost me anything other than a half years delay, drywall is scheduled 3 weeks from today.

 

[The FIB]

After my ordeal with bad sprayfoam, my friend asked his son (who is a GC that does a lot of high end remodel jobs) about it, he says bad foam is not that uncommon, he will open walls or ceilings up for remodels and find loose panels of foam fall out.

 

[JeremiahTRD]

I've been a spray foam contractor for 10 years. I've seen just about everything and I've preached it for years.

Spray Foam is only as good as the installer.

Not to say you won't get a bad product from the manufacturer but it's very

rare.

Virtually all spray foam issues are caused not by the equipment or the

material but by the installer.


Spray Foam is a mobile chemical manufacturing plant and the installation can

be affected by the Substrate Temperature, Ambient Temp, Humidity,

Substrate Moisture Content etc... All factors that a proficient professional

installer will take into account during the installation.


This is a highly skilled trade, you have to do the research to find the right

company/installer for your job.

It's like any trade out there, you'll find really good welders and really bad

ones.

 

[JeremiahTRD]

The FIB

I can just about guarantee that product was sprayed to hot.

When you spray it too hot you accelerate the creation of the cell structure, which causes rapid excessive expansion.

Essentially the foam cells are cracking open and deflating, loosing it's dimensional stability which is why it shrinks back.

Kinda like blowing bubble gum, to big a bubble and pop she goes.

 

[Marctrees]

Jeremiah - If you post your location, you may find some business here.

Marc

 

[aunsafe2015]

The FIB

I can just about guarantee that product was sprayed to hot.

When you spray it too hot you accelerate the creation of the cell structure, which causes rapid excessive expansion.

Essentially the foam cells are cracking open and deflating, loosing it's dimensional stability which is why it shrinks back.

Kinda like blowing bubble gum, to big a bubble and pop she goes.

Jeremiah - If you post your location, you may find some business here.

Marc

I second Marc's comment. Mind posting your location? Seems difficult to find a good spray foam contractor in Central NC...

 

[Mr. Roboto]

Just a final update... I monitored the foam for the next few days... no additional Shrinkage in any of the bays. I understand there could still be issues in the future, but we had to get the subfloor down, and it will never see the light of day again. Fingers crossed it holds up.

 

[JeremiahTRD]

Fixed My Location for you.

I'm not trying to drum up business for myself! haha

I just want to help you guys so you don't have problems with Spray Foam.