Cable Pulling - Looking for some tricks of the trade

[b-boy]

I have a 200 ft run from my house to my new pole barn. Last year a plumber buried 2" conduit when he trenched for water and gas lines.

I'm using a 250 ft steel fish tape for the pull. I had no problem pulling it through the conduit run.

I tried to pull the cables yesterday. I'm using THHN/THWN. I have 3-Cu 2AWG and 1-Cu 4AWG conductors. I used a small piece of chain to stagger the wires so that they would not bunch up during the pull. The chain is about 18 inches long. I attached wires every 3-4 inches along the length of the chain. I used a lot of lube.

I can pull about 20 ft and then I can't budge it. I assume I've hit a 90 underground. I tried for several hours. No luck.

I wasn't there when the work was done, so I'm not sure of the exact setup. I think there are 2-90s that run into to both buildings. There is also 1-90 underground, and 1-45 underground. I don't know what type of sweeps he may have used. He does a lot of this type of work, so I assume he knows what is needed.

Any advice? Any advice on reworking the chain? Are there better ways to do this?

 

[LXCam]

Ditch the chain as well as pulling with the tape. Pull in some 3/8-1/2" rope with a braided loop. Then strip back the insulation about 18" and thread the conductors thru the loop, bend over and tape them so the assembly is nice and smooth. Get some wire pulling lube too and while someone is pulling the other guy can not only feed the wire but push as well. On a run like that in 2" and those small of conductors you should be able to push half the run in without issue as long as they installed the conduit correctly.

if you suspect there's issues with the conduit being slightly crushed or kinked I would suggest a pulling sock. The key to a successful pull is keeping the head (where the wires are attached) as small and smooth as possible.

Here are some socks I have for sale right now just to show you the concept. These are for big conductors but you can purchase smaller individual ones online. Look for greenlee.

 

[Bad Habit]

yeah, the pushing will probably be the biggest help. Agree with losing the chain, it's probably hanging up on a fitting. Rope will give you something to actually grab and pull with too.

 

[b-boy]

Thanks. I saw the chain setup somewhere else. It sounded like a good idea.

As far as the fish tape, I agree. It's really hard to get a good grip on it.

When I pulled starter string came through the conduit, it was pretty wet. Is that normal?

 

[b-boy]

Oops - Just noticed that I posted this in the wrong forum.

 

[b-boy]

I'm looking at the Greenlee socks online. How do I size them for #2 and #4?

They list gauge as 250, 350, 300, etc

 

[LXCam]

Thanks. I saw the chain setup somewhere else. It sounded like a good idea.

As far as the fish tape, I agree. It's really hard to get a good grip on it.

When I pulled starter string came through the conduit, it was pretty wet. Is that normal?

Water in the conduit is typical, don't let that bother too much unless its absolutely flooded.

 

[Kaizen]

Try from the other side. Three people is better. One pushing, one pulling, and one lubing as it goes. Put cell phones on speaker at both ends to communicate. If it still gets stuck at that mark start digging


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rlitman]

Are you sure you have the direction right? If it was installed right, all of the belled ends should be facing the same way, and determine which way you should be pulling.

 

[b-boy]

That could be the problem. Maybe I'm pulling from the wrong end. I'm not sure how it was laid out. I wasn't present when they did the installation.

I'm pulling from the barn toward the house if that helps. I didn't notice any hangups when I pulled the fish tape from the other side. Maybe I need to try reversing the pull.

Is there a standard way of laying conduit?

 

[Marctrees]

If you use rope, make sure it is non stretch.

Polypropylene works good, Nylon stretches too much.

Marc

 

[Bad Habit]

I'm looking at the Greenlee socks online. How do I size them for #2 and #4?

They list gauge as 250, 350, 300, etc

Don't bother with the socks, too much money for 1 pull. Just strip the wires, separate and lace the strands and stagger them. Then apply lots of electrical tape, as in a few rolls. Make the head as smooth as you can. You'd be surprised how well electrical tape will hold

 

[75gmck25]

When I pulled 2-2-2-4 MHF through 2" conduit fdor about 50 feet I first tried it from the wrong end, and it was nearly impossible to get by the joints. Once we figured that out and pulled the other direction it was no problem at all. I installed the conduit myself, so I know there were long sweep 90's at each end.

I used fishtape first to push the distance through the conduit, then a heavy pull string/rope to pull the wire back. I also bought the spray foam lubricant and frequently sprayed it into the conduit as we were pulling.

Bruce

 

[b-boy]

Thanks for the ideas. I picked up some rope. I'll switch directions and give this another try.

It might work out well. If I pull from the house into the garage I can use a pulley attached to one of my trusses to get some leverage during the pull.

 

[dogdog]

I have seen dedicated electric cable winch , maybe you can use your favorite shop winch for ropes, not sure if it will store 250' though... saying that... if those 90 degs were install too close to each other, you'll going to have a fun time at this...

 

[Kaizen]

For a newb i'd caution against using any kind of winch. the pulley is fine. If something is wrong down there you'll damage the cable. OP where are you located? Any chance of ice?
not sure if mentioned but have the cable unrolled so when it goes in the pipe its relatively straight. Probably not an issue with thhn but a good practice.

 

[b-boy]

I'm in Buffalo NY.

No ice - yet.

The 90s should be pretty far apart.

I have a 90 from the barn into the ground, a second 90 about 10 ft out, a 180+ foot straight run, a 45, then finally 15 ft to the final 90 to the house.

 

[shawhite]

I would recommend mule tape or something similar over rope. Rope tends to saw in the 90,s. I would also lube the rope/mule tape for the first 50ish feet while you are pulling it in. This should drag the lube through the pipe and help when you go to pull back. I agree you should stager but I would do groups of 2 and use a Kellum style grip (someone called them socks). If you need assistance go rent a tugger(electric capstan).

 

[LXCam]

You don't need any pulling equipment for this. Three #2 and a grnd is like throwing a hotdog down a hallway in 2". But now that you've defined the conduit a bit better I would suggest you feed the wire from the side with the back to back 90's. Absolutely lube the run too. With a guy feeding (which means pushing it in) from that side it'll go like butta

I'm in Buffalo NY.

No ice - yet.

The 90s should be pretty far apart.

I have a 90 from the barn into the ground, a second 90 about 10 ft out, a 180+ foot straight run, a 45, then finally 15 ft to the final 90 to the house.

 

[Git]

Lube? And if your still having problems after all the above suggestions, I would consider going out to where that one 90 is 10' from the barn and digging it up so you can get direct access to the conduit. (That would take two 90's out)

 

[Bert_]

I think your just getting caught on a fitting. The head needs to be smooth, cover any edges with tape. I usually use duct tape cause it's stronger.

I am amazed your could get a fish tape though 200' of 2". That should be way harder than the pull. I usually **** a string though with a foam ball and a vacuum.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

I would recommend mule tape or something similar over rope. Rope tends to saw in the 90,s. I would also lube the rope/mule tape for the first 50ish feet while you are pulling it in. This should drag the lube through the pipe and help when you go to pull back. I agree you should stager but I would do groups of 2 and use a Kellum style grip (someone called them socks). If you need assistance go rent a tugger(electric capstan).

Mule tape is a great innovation for pulling cable. In addition for your first pull a separate mule tape with a couple of additional rags tied off to it. With this run use a pulling lubricant to prelube the conduit. If this pulls easy your conduit run may not be crushed or damaged. If it doesn’t pull at all, measure the run with the amount of mule tape pulled and start digging!

 

[rd65]

I just pulled 215' of 3-2/0 aluminum + #6 through 2" conduit. Ok, I didn't do much pulling, the other guy pushed. Lots of dishsoap but it wasn't a problem. I did use 24" sweeps and not tight 90s.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

For lubricant I use PolyWater, the Klein lube is also great. The Klein lube can be easily purchased at HD. Dish soap may work in PVC but would never use it in metal conduit due to the water content. For the same reason Yellow 77 is not used anymore in metal conduit. The Y77 tended to dry and made it damn near impossible to do a repull. It pretty well welded the cable to the inside of the metal conduit pipe. Mind you power cables are not changed out as often as communication cabling so may never be a problem.

 

[Rock knocker]

I hope the sparky used conduit 90ºs and not plumbing fittings.

 

[b-boy]

I think your just getting caught on a fitting. The head needs to be smooth, cover any edges with tape. I usually use duct tape cause it's stronger.

I am amazed your could get a fish tape though 200' of 2". That should be way harder than the pull. I usually **** a string though with a foam ball and a vacuum.

I think you're right. It was a hard stop when the wire hung up. That makes me think it got caught on something.

I'm going to reverse the pull and give it another try. Unfortunately, I can't do that until this weekend. By the time I get home it's already dark.

 

[Marctrees]

I don't think it's been said yet..

For a long pull like this... with all your bends, you need 2 guys at each end doing the correct motions.

4 people total.

One at each end of pipe, PLUS helper for each one of them.

Most important on the feeding end..

The helper must make sure he supplies the feeder w a constant slack un ending short section of free wire...

So the guy shoving in to the pipe does NOT have to do ANY dragging of the entire length.


Marc

 

[coolright]

Couple of things I see.

You said a plumber installed the pipe. Did he use electrical conduit or plumbing PVC pipe?
Are the plumbing 90s (ells) or are they electrical sweeps?
If sweeps are they PVC or metal? For pulls like they should be metal to stop burn through.
If they are PVC just running the fish tape in can cause burns in the sweeps. You may be getting hung up on the burn groove.

 

[b-boy]

I can't say what was used. He does a lot of this type of work, so I really hope he used the right stuff. I don't know about the 90s, but I'm guessing they're PVC.

I don't think I'm hanging up on a burn groove. I haven't really been able to pull very far yet and there was no friction at all when I ran the fish tape.

 

[rlitman]

...I haven't really been able to pull very far yet and there was no friction at all when I ran the fish tape.

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm hoping you're pulling backwards.

 

[Marctrees]

I'm 99.999% sure he did not use steel 90's...

And, otherwise...

Unless he was insanely stupid, he DID use gray colored conduit 90's rather than white MUCH tighter radius plumbing 90's.

Conduit radius bend 90's are available in two forms...

The most common is the tighter (of the two) radius bends..

Not as common are the larger radius and longer leg(s) bigger ones, often refferred to as "Sweeps".

When you walk into a supply house and ask for PVC 90, they will give you the smaller one, UNLESS you spec you want the larger longer leg 90 deg sweep.

Lastly, I'm gonna say the "Direction" one pulls is TOTALLY irrelivent...

IF one prepares the shaping of the cables correctly.

BUT ALSO...

Some 90's come w integral bell end coupling on one end...

BUT... not ALL..

Many have NO coupling integral...

So then, it comes down to you have to glue on a SEPERATE coupling..

So, even on the one w one "Bell" end, you STILL have to glu on a seperate coupling on the OTHER end anyway.

So, then if so, direction is irrelevant.

Bottom line is..

IF you prepare the end correctly, direction makes NO difference.

And, if you do NOT prepare correctly, direction differece will ONLY benefit at the factory bell ends.



Marc

Marc

 

[rlitman]

...Lastly, I'm gonna say the "Direction" one pulls is TOTALLY irrelivent...

IF one prepares the shaping of the cables correctly.

BUT ALSO...

Some 90's come w integral bell end coupling on one end...

BUT... not ALL..

Many have NO coupling integral...

So then, it comes down to you have to glue on a SEPERATE coupling..

So, even on the one w one "Bell" end, you STILL have to glu on a seperate coupling on the OTHER end anyway.

So, then if so, direction is irrelevant.

Bottom line is..

IF you prepare the end correctly, direction makes NO difference.

And, if you do NOT prepare correctly, direction differece will ONLY benefit at the factory bell ends.

Prep of the head of the cable makes a big difference. It takes more tape than most people think. I also have my cover wrap start at the wire end, and wind towards the fish. The other direction leaves the tape wrap more likely to catch on things.

The conduit is supposed to get a chamfer cut on the inside of the male ends. If you remember this part of your prep, then the bell ends are irrelevant, as is pulling direction direction. Most people skip this step, and most get away with it. I try to chamfer any ends that may be snag points, such as the input side of sweeps that don't have an integral bell.

Of course, we don't know exactly how this conduit was prepped, and I'm not going to far as to recommend pushing a camera scope down it to find out.

 

[Marctrees]

Yup, cept one thing to be aware of.....

You can prep the end very meticulously,


BUT.....

IF you use TOOOO much tape...

You CAN make the **** MORE stiff than necessary to hold it together...

AND so, if the **** is toooo stiff, ...

It will not bend as easily.


It really is a learned Art..

Like most things We do.

Marc

 

[rlitman]

100% agreed.

 

[Marctrees]

Also, as rlitman sed...

The direction of wrap of tape makes difference..

Not super different , but helps.

Just like teflon tape on a threaded plumbing joint...

Not mandatory to do it the correct directin, but helps.

Right and left handeds will inherantly be opposite on this issue..

One way will be much more natural feeling than the opposite.

So one needs to be aware of this

Just like the applying the teflon tape deal.

Ideally it ends up like shingles on a roof..

Intaht case, direction of course is totally mandatory !!

Marc

Marc

 

[rlitman]

"Shingles on a roof", yeah, that sums it up much better than my description.

 

[Marctrees]

I don't want to minimize the direction of taping importance..

Thing is, on an easy pull basically makes NO diff.

But, on a longer pull that has more couplings, specially the ones right at the 90's..

it IS possible, that ONE sharp pipe end can GRAB the bundle...

And if the taping is backwards...

a big *** Burr ball can form..

Basically stopping the pull.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

And seeing as how you probably do not have the X ray specs sold in the old comic books...

You will be standing there wondering "W T F " is the problem ????

marc

 

[Marctrees]

Future readers of this thread should consider, for a longg multi elbow pull..

central pulling box...

W pipe TAPERING up in elevation and keeping w Code by covering w concrete...

NOT by adding more 90's.

Rlitman / other Pros... comment please.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

Another technique on longer extra scary pulls...

W the pull rope..

Pre swab pipe w rope and swab BOTH ways back and forth a few times..

Swab in center of rope, so it can be pulled full run, lube put in, then back to other end, few times to distribute.

Putting in PLENTY of lube in both directions.

Won't need that here, but in some cases a great prudent precaution insurance.

Marc