Has anyone installed their own solar power system?

[JohnnieMo]

I met a company today who does solar panel installation etc. They are going to give me an estimate/assessment.

Here in Alberta, solar is fairly under utilized due to our relatively short sunny season, and our relatively cheap power. However it seems like the inflection point is nearing. Further, the government has recently made changes to allow for putting power back into the grid and getting market value credit.

Before I go and spend tens of thousands to pay someone else, is this something I can do myself? It doesn't seem too difficult. It's just a bunch of roof mounted panels to install and wiring some boxes. Since I built my whole shop, I assume I'm up for this.

Any opinions?

 

[ddawg16]

Installing the panels is the easy part.

Based on your location, I doubt the payback is there.

You might be better off with stationary storage....especially if your utility varies the rates according to usage.

 

[JohnnieMo]

The utility allows for selling back into the grid at a market rate. That market rate is pretty much fixed. So you know in advance what you’ll credit in the summer to pay out in the winter. My rate is around 7c/kWh.

Calgary is an extremely sunny city so it has that going for it.

From what I’ve heard you can get to a net zero situation fairly easily if you have a south facing roof (of which I have the house and shop).

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Installing the system is only half te job and requires quite a few hand and power tools.

The other half of the job is designing it engineering it and making sure it is code compliant..

The tens of thousands you speak of arent just for the labor and materials

Are you capable of doing the engibeering design and code compliance checks?

If not

 

[Git]

I am going to post a link to a thread again on one of the solar forums. The guy started out hiring a hack contractor and he ended up taking over, redoing everything and it turned out pretty well

Can you do it yourself - probably, but I think when it comes to solar, there is more roofing work than anything else

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/foru...eally-bad-looking-for-some-help-advice-please

Talk to a couple of contractors and have them give you bids. Learn from them and then you can decide if this is something you want to try yourself

 

[American Locomotive]

It's really not that hard at all - even the electrical aspect of it. Just take your time, do your research. If possible, design a roof mounting system that doesn't actually penetrate the shingles.

I have a friend who did his own small solar install completely DIY, and it went very well. He has a 1500 watt grid-tie inverter. He wasn't in any rush though, and would cruise e-bay every week or so and look for local deals from surplus sellers liquidating old solar panels. He has 1540 watts worth of panels, has hit around 1200 watts peak grid feed, and he's about $1750 total into his project.

 

[ard]

I did.

Probably the most difficult was figuring out sun exposures, angles, and getting it submitted to the state and feds to qualify for rebates/incentives.

Otherwise it is pretty simple... trench, conduit, pull wires, LBs.... drill holes, set piers for a ground mount using 2.5" galv sched 40 pipes. Assembly of the array was the best part, just nice mechanical assembly.

Couple of disconnects, grounds here and there, the inverter, tie into the main.

 

[exranger06]

Before installing anything, contact your electric utility and let them know you want to install solar. Since it's tied into the grid, they want to know about it and make sure it won't damage any of their equipment. Every utility is different, but the one I work for has a whole application process that you must go through before any work begins. They might have specific requirements such as a disconnect switch right by the meter. Once your application is submitted, complete with wiring schematic, model # of panels and inverters, among other things, THEN they'll give you approval to start installation. After installation is complete, they may have someone come out to inspect the system and make sure you installed everything according to your application. After it passes the UTILITY's inspection (as well as the local building/electrical inspector), the utility will allow you to turn it on and start using it. But if the utility sees your meter running backwards and they never approved a solar installation, they can shut off your power until you go through the proper channels.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here in Alberta, solar is fairly under utilized due to our relatively short sunny season, and our relatively cheap power. However it seems like the inflection point is nearing. Further, the government has recently made changes to allow for putting power back into the grid and getting market value credit.

I am not sure what you mean by "inflection point", but with relatively cheap power, it is not worth the cost.

 

[mm08822]

I was going to suggest a good book for you to read so you get a good hands-on background approach to system details and installs.

However, I put your location into Pvwatts and assumed a 10KW ideal system. It would only net you $928/year of savings ($93/installed kw). Unless you have other rebates/credits to offset the cost (~$20K or so), you are on a 20'ish year payback plan.

7.5 cents/kwh makes payback difficult. This is a good problem!

 

[JohnnieMo]

I was going to suggest a good book for you to read so you get a good hands-on background approach to system details and installs.

However, I put your location into Pvwatts and assumed a 10KW ideal system. It would only net you $928/year of savings ($93/installed kw). Unless you have other rebates/credits to offset the cost (~$20K or so), you are on a 20'ish year payback plan.

7.5 cents/kwh makes payback difficult. This is a good problem!

Right now there is a 25% rebate on the system cost. So that helps. My electricity is locked in right now until about 2021, so that helps too. After that all bets are off. It will likely skyrocket.

The rebate is unlikely to live past the election next year

FWIW - we use 900 kWh per month.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I just stumbled on this thread to read.....I don't see myself ever doing it for aesthetics.

It's interesting. I don't know about regional location , but out here I noticed a boatload of solar install vans and also *signups* at the local HD, costco, etc. So it perked my interest in what the deal was, as it was kinda strange to see so many solar install shops/stores.

Looks like between incentives, HO pays about 10-15K on a 30-45K install. And the money is usually recouped back in year 5-7 years based on my VERY limited reading up on it (as I don't intend to install on ever) but was curious

 

[Dagny]

don't do it.

 

[Matt Matt]

Look into the fine print. A lot of the suppliers are looking for 10 to 15 kW every 20th home. Most of the incentives are full roof top mounted to prevent farmers form turning their fields into Solar fields. Generally the payback is 5 to 7 years. This is where a solar panel is sitting at 92% to 75% return. The 7 to 15 years the return is between 72% and 50% as solar panels tend to get damaged.

Roofs need to be replaced... so most of the smart farmers around me expense a new metal shed too house their equipment with roof top solar. It’s just a huge Business write off for them.

Be leery with a company installing with contracts.

You’re better off pulling your own contract, installing your own panels, and if possible turbines.
This way in 4 to 6 years you will breakeven if installed correctly.

Natural gas, coal, Nuclear, Hydro is so cheap for electrical generation. But the government is trying to do away with a few with them. I’ve done a few tests, it is actually cheaper to and you will make more money using natural gas generator if you get a fit program... to put back on the grid.

I don’t want to say this, but why is the farmer running a diesel/NG generator on peak return when he has been granted the fit system?

Whether or not the generator is putting Power back on the grid (think about it for second) (or for dispersing the old dirty way that the government is trying to get away from in their own hands). Or powering their own needs during peak for heat for their chicken coops and the pumps for their watering supply.

Under a government fit program you can get anywhere between $.30 per kilowatt hour to $.70 per kilowatt hour. (Years ago I saw $.92 per kilowatt hour). Currently I pay about, on average $.10-18 per kilowatt hour(+taxes). With a decent NG generator I could produce about $.10-14 per kilowatt hour. If I have a fit program on my property and I’m a farmer with a generator, it could be about a two year payback if the generator is running and I’m getting paid $.70 per kilowatt hour during peak, 7 AM to 7 PM.

If you’re a farmer look into the high-voltage generation and hirer kilowatts.

 

[JohnnieMo]

Here is the proposal I got from Lowes Solar Brokers here in Canada. Note that everything is in Canadian dollars.

I thought about not posting this, however there is no proprietary markings on the document, and I believe in transparency.

 

[JohnnieMo]

Their entire argument (for Canada) is that you can generate a ton in the summer and then bank your credit with the utility company to draw from for the winter. This is the only way solar can work in Canada. Given the new regulations, this is possible.

Further there is about a 25% rebate on the cost of the panels from the Alberta government.

What I don't like is that they don't break down their massive $35,000 price. You can't tell how much they are charging for the hardware, the install and the overhead. It's too big of a number for me to be comfortable with that. They also don't disclose the suppliers. (i.e. who makes the panels). I guess with a 25 year warranty you don't need to care.

At the moment I am locked into a 5.9c kWh plan for 3 more years, and the top capped rate is 6.8c kWh. So I have no idea where they get 12c from. It really doesn't make sense to do this until those rates sky-rocket - which they will. Our government has gone green and they are losing billions right now covering up for it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The biggest hassle with home solar is 1) getting approval from the local power company to do the net metering and 2) getting an electrician who is knowledgeable about the install to properly hook up the switches/breakers, actual grid tie inverter so that the pass local codes/inspections as well as the PoCo inspectors.

The rest of the install is pretty simple. Roof mounts are a pain just because you usually do not have much work room and moving the panel from the ground to the roof is definitely a 2 man job when there is low wind ! Wring the panels and making the connection to the gear on the back pf the house is pretty simple.

 

[JohnnieMo]

It sounds like getting approval is not that bad here. The entire grid is owned by one company (former government) so there is only one approval. However there is a process which isn't well publicized. Not only that, but there is a restriction on how many homes in an area can push power into the grid (you can imagine what would happen on a hot, sunny, summer day otherwise). Now in my area I've never seen another solar installation, so I would be unique.

I think the grunt work I could do myself. Installing panels and running wires is what I'm good at. I don't mind paying someone else to do the hookups and the permitting, but with this quote I have no idea how it breaks down.

Solar in Canada still doesn't make that much sense. You need to install 30% more panels to get the energy you need in the summer months to make up for the power you use in the winter months. The only saving grace is that Calgary is the sunniest major city in the country. I also happen to have a completely unobstructed line of sight to the sun.

 

[Git]

The rule of thumb when comparing price quotes is to look at the 'price per watt' before any rebates or incentives

In your case, the quote is for (25) 365 watt panels for $32,581. Multiply 25 x 365 to get 9,125 watts and divide $32,581 by that number gets you $3.57 per watt.

Can't really speak if that is a good deal for YOUR area, you need to get a couple of quotes to compare. Panels are pretty much a 'commodity'. Kind of like computer ram. Is there really that much of a difference between one brand or the other? (no)

A typical 'grid tied' system isn't designed to cover your electrical usage during a particular month. The ANNUAL usage is what counts and at least in the US, once you go solar, your billing is switched from monthly to annually.

During Jan-March, my system overgenerates quite a bit and it offsets the heavy usage during the summer

 

[ard]

There is NO way Id let any big box outfit work on my home. At least in the US, there is one company with a license and tens to hundreds of crews that work under them- lots of hackjobs IMO.

Call a guy that owns his own solar company. Bigger is not better.

In terms of DIY- either you DIY or they do it...all my guy did was the solar calcs and the rebate application. (Paid him $1500 for this.) I engineered it all, installed it all. He made money off the panels, mounts and inverters- I provided everything else. And he didnt get a single call from me until it was done. Ive made $2000 over the years by 4 referrals. All those were NOT self-installs.

 

[mm08822]

Let’s start with your stated consumption of 900 khw/month. I’ll assume this is an average amount based upon 10,800 kwh/year since usage is seasonally dependent.
If you are correct that 5.9 cent is your (fully delivered/taxed) price per kwh, then at 10,800 khw/yr, you are only spending $638/yr. ($53/month).
Verify your bottom line total cost per khw. Take the bottom line total dollar amount of your bill and divide by the total kwh’s consumed in that period. Do this for 3-4 bills to verify if seasonal charges exist. These values will give you the bottom-line rate you are paying. Is it even close to 12.1 cents?

The proposal (more of an info-mercial) you received is full of (mis-) leading statements. Nowhere does it verify your specific payback, just the $$ you will payout to them. Seems like the only thing custom is possibly your system size – what your roof can fit.
The pic of the two homes with random panels don’t match the caption below it and I doubt your house is two separate buildings.

In the small paragraph “addressing” payback period of my solar system, it is loaded with weasel words:
Depending on, payback period will vary, average homeowner. There is no mention of details about bearing, inclination or shading analysis for your install.
Almost every paragraph in that proposal has some claim that can be blasted or it tells the truth for a few focused sub-set of conditions.

 

[dcg9381]

I've done a few "hobby" jobs for residential construction (new construction only) where I can get to the wiring. There is massive margin in solar installs - at least where I am, say a mark up of 30-50%.

One question is CAN you install it yourself? Around here - the modern cities require solar installers to carry 1M liability insurance (connecting to the grid) and may require that the install be done under a Master Electrician license....

There are quite a few jurisdictions and some cities that do not require these things.

Should you install it yourself? If you're very comfortable with AC and DC power and doing residential wiring, maybe... If you're still figuring out what a 2-pole AC circuit is, probably not.

I'll mention also that some utilities are behind the times with solar - they're still requiring things like physical disconnects when we have rapid shutdown systems.

And there are some further gotchas - proper grounding, lightening arrestors - may or may not be required, and things like finding a DC-rated disconnect box good for 300V+.....

And for those that might think that solar will "power the home" in the event of a grid failure - that's not true. These systems shut down on grid failure to prevent back-feeding the grid.


And I agree with above - ANY analysis starts with YOUR particular install - tilt, compass orientation, etc.

 

[ard]

Interesting tidbit from a solar guy...

He said (paraphrasing) 'I know you know what you're doing, but pay attention.... most electrical jobs you do what you want right up until you flip the disconnect. You're "safe" from the service, right up until that step, right? Welp, with solar, the sun can kill you. Once you start daisy-chaining those panels, your wife may come out and find you under that array. See, you can get hundreds of DC volts that show up way before the disconnect gets thrown. Basically when the sun is up the system is hot. So pay attention."

I found it to be an interesting and important distinction, that can be missed even by guys that have wired other stuff for many years. Maybe it helps someone.

 

[Matt Matt]

Interesting tidbit from a solar guy...

He said (paraphrasing) 'I know you know what you're doing, but pay attention.... most electrical jobs you do what you want right up until you flip the disconnect. You're "safe" from the service, right up until that step, right? Welp, with solar, the sun can kill you. Once you start daisy-chaining those panels, your wife may come out and find you under that array. See, you can get hundreds of DC volts that show up way before the disconnect gets thrown. Basically when the sun is up the system is hot. So pay attention."

I found it to be an interesting and important distinction, that can be missed even by guys that have wired other stuff for many years. Maybe it helps someone.

This reminds me of a thread once does amps kill or Volts? After doing my research it is both. There is a point that high voltage just jumps right through the skin and attacks the nervous system and your died. Anything below 300 V travels along on top of the skin. But if amperage is high enough (2ma below 300 V)can it is enough to kill.

Check your circuit 2-3 times before tampering with any electrical terminal.

Any voltage testing equipment is better than nothing. I personally use fluke or klein. But anything is better than nothing!!! I work with capacitors.... these little cans will kill you in seconds. Know what you’re dealing with. Or consider this the last deal you make!

 

[dcg9381]

One of the ways to get a "more efficient" system is to keep the DC voltage in-line with the AC grid voltage. That is, don't exceed 240V or any string in your system.

Most residential solar installs and equipment peak out at about 600V (DC). Yes, you can go over, but equipment - like the disconnect that costs $15 for your air conditioner, costs $100 for 600V DC, and probably a good deal more for 1000V DC - which seems to be the higher end voltage for residential.

I don't (personally) know if 10A @ 300V DC would kill you. I suspect not (it's not that much current through the body), but I wouldn't want to find out. I DO worry about getting killed with this stuff when it is wet outside or I'm sweating a lot.


The system I'm currently installing - has an NEC approved auto-disconnect. No grid power? No AC power. Course, the power company doesn't quite recognize this modern marvel and are requiring a manual disconnect on top of the automatic disconnect... IMHO - certainly LESS safe for the installer.


And the "little guys" being cheaper - not so sure. There is an advantage to doing volume and many municipalities require a LOT of liability insurance when runs up my costs. The advantage of the little guys is that you probably won't get a "sales person" (who really knows very little about solar) and might get someone with some actual experience. Generally these companies figure out the local market - it equalizes - and you won't see a tremendous variation in prices if the municipality requires fairly stringent installer requirements.

 

[meathooker]

Interesting tidbit from a solar guy...

He said (paraphrasing) 'I know you know what you're doing, but pay attention.... most electrical jobs you do what you want right up until you flip the disconnect. You're "safe" from the service, right up until that step, right? Welp, with solar, the sun can kill you. Once you start daisy-chaining those panels, your wife may come out and find you under that array. See, you can get hundreds of DC volts that show up way before the disconnect gets thrown. Basically when the sun is up the system is hot. So pay attention."

I found it to be an interesting and important distinction, that can be missed even by guys that have wired other stuff for many years. Maybe it helps someone.

I always assumed you were supposed to leave a cardboard layer on the panel until everything is connected and tested.

 

[ard]

I don't (personally) know if 10A @ 300V DC would kill you.

In a heartbeat. Actually half a heartbeat

I always assumed you were supposed to leave a cardboard layer on the panel until everything is connected and tested.

Dunno. Hard to clamp them down still in the box though. Even harder to get to the middle panels in a 5x12 array to untape the cardboard!

I wouldnt 'trust' taped down cardboard as a safety interlock

 

[dcg9381]

If you're worried, cover them with a tarp. The MC-4 cables that are installed out of the factory are pretty reasonable to work with. It's not until you start splicing them or terminating them that I start covering the panels up.

 

[86turbodsl]

I don't (personally) know if 10A @ 300V DC would kill you. I suspect not (it's not that much current through the body), but I wouldn't want to find out. I DO worry about getting killed with this stuff when it is wet outside or I'm sweating a lot.

Deader than dead. Crispy. NOBODY should be messing with solar electric unless they know what they're doing. Not saying some homeowners wouldn't, just most probably wouldn't. You can't let go of a DC circuit like you can with AC.

Interesting discussion.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Most safety "standards" consider anything over 50V to be "high voltage".

You are much less likely to "feel" less than 50V traveling through dry skin and much less likely to sustain any damage to your skin or cause any kind of irregular heart beat.

Any kid knows that if you touch a 9V battery to your tongue, you will know it !

 

[dcg9381]

Deader than dead. Crispy. NOBODY should be messing with solar electric unless they know what they're doing. Not saying some homeowners wouldn't, just most probably wouldn't. You can't let go of a DC circuit like you can with AC.

Interesting discussion.

I think you guys are saying 10A 300V DC "through" the body would kill you - and I agree... I'm questioning - not really debating - if grabbing both ends of that under normal conditions would kill you.. Body electrical resistance is probably well over 50K ohms. Regardless, I agree - no one should be working with high voltage - hell, not even 12v automotive unless they know what they are doing. If you're not risking death, its fire and property damage by shorting the wrong thing.