Home heating - how to determine whether I can control up/down-stairs temp separately?

[kitchenTablesaw]

Recently moved into a new to me home (walkout rancher). Downstairs is very large, and outside of a the workshop room, I essentially don't use it (for now), so heating it seems pointless. When guests come over and do stay there, I'd love to be able to set a separate temperature for downstairs vs upstairs.

I've got a heat pump, furnace, and hot water tank/boiler. Forced air heating, as far as I can tell.

What I've been doing so far is closing off the vents in downstairs rooms that are not being used. Not the most practical thing, but better than nothing, I guess. When guests visit, I open the vents in specific rooms, but those rooms tend to remain cooler than the upstairs, which makes them tough to heat without making the upstairs boiling hot.

Upstairs has a thermostat which seems to control the entire house. Downstairs has wiring for a thermostat (found it behind an empty wall plate), but no thermostat itself. If I add one, would it just be a second interface into the same system as the upstairs unit, or a separate "zone" altogether? How can I tell?

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If it makes a difference, I replaced the original Honeywell thermostat with a "smart" Ecobee 4 model. I also placed three additional wireless temp sensors around the house - one of which is in the guest bedroom downstairs (this one is normally in the "off" state and not being taken into account into overall home temp).

 

[WhoWhatNow]

It sounds like your thermostat is in the wrong place. It should be away from windows, skylights and the kitchen. Basically, on an interior wall in the least used room on the main floor of your house. Typically a dinning room. Remember heat rises, so if your thermostat is on the second floor it will shut off the heat before the downstairs is warmed up.

Sorry - just reread your post. With a ranch I doubt there is much you can do. Electric baseboard heat maybe?

Most dual zone systems I have seen have a second air handler/heater for second zone.

 

[850xpeps]

Stop closing vents. Your not saving much if any and your making it uncomfortable. If you wanted to do it you need a second source say a boiler for jnfloor. This is why I installed one in my basement because even new houses will tend to be cooler in the basement.

 

[kitchenTablesaw]

I thought it would be possible to route ducting from the furnace such that its flow can be split between upstairs and downstairs, and controlled independently, but maybe that's not how this normally works (first time living in a house).

A second heating source would be a pretty big project, and likely not in the books any time soon.

Electric baseboards are very cost-inefficient, but perhaps I can use them to supplement forced air heating from the furnace. Come to think of it, I may be able to wire them through "smart" switches that would be controlled automatically by the home automation system, based on the temperature sensors for my Ecobee thermostat. An automation rule/flow could look at the temperature in an individual room, compare it against the desired temperature, and turn the baseboard heater in that room on as needed. Theoretically...

 

[bobdole4u2]

Add a minisplit unit to that zone. It's not that big of a job, it's not unnervingly expensive, and these new modern units can provide heat down to 10* outside temp or lower, plus they're stupid efficient.

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[Kaizen]

It depends how the main run goes. Guessing the upstairs and down are off the same trunk supply. So in ceiling of basement is supply with some going down and some up. To do what you are talking about another trunk would need to be run and just supply one floor. Probably about the same as a new heat source.

One option you might have is something I saw on this old house. Or ask this old house. It was WiFi controlled dampers that go in each room. They basically run on a program you set or from a phone you can change the temp. So at night the bedrooms could be wide open and other rooms will close to direct the heat where you want it. It was at least a year ago I saw it. Guessing those are not cheap either.


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[850xpeps]

It depends how the main run goes. Guessing the upstairs and down are off the same trunk supply. So in ceiling of basement is supply with some going down and some up. To do what you are talking about another trunk would need to be run and just supply one floor. Probably about the same as a new heat source.

One option you might have is something I saw on this old house. Or ask this old house. It was WiFi controlled dampers that go in each room. They basically run on a program you set or from a phone you can change the temp. So at night the bedrooms could be wide open and other rooms will close to direct the heat where you want it. It was at least a year ago I saw it. Guessing those are not cheap either.


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Your not gonna save much by cutting heat off in these rooms downstairs that’s the point. A mini split runs its own lines to each room. They are really effiecint like cop of 2.5-3 up to 0 and can work up to -25. But they cost money.

The main trunk in your house will have branch offs for each duct main floor or basement. There will not be 2 seperate runs.

My suggestion is leave the heat down there and comfortable. Heat rises.

Baseboards are hard on power. And require to be wired properly.

 

[kitchenTablesaw]

Thanks for the feedback. Mini spit and wifi-based vents are two of the options I've been researching the last little bit. Some interesting possibilities out there. Certainly lots that can be done with home automation in mind/use.

There are also some inline duct-block things which operate off low voltage and can be tied into a home-automation relay. These can be installed right inline in pretty much any size-compatible duct, and controlled remotely via home automation tools.

I took some photos of the furnace in the utility room. Can anyone tell me anything about this setup? Short of knowing that there must be a main duct leaving the furnace, and another for air return, I have no idea of what I'm looking at.

The unit itself:

Same angle, from further back:

Ducting above entry-way through which the previous photo was taken. The ~four inch round duct leads to the water heater.

Seems like something leading directly up, above the furnace:

To the left is a "soft" 6" duct leading behind the wall.

Behind the furnace:

Heat pump closeup:

 

[Kaizen]

Your not gonna save much by cutting heat off in these rooms downstairs that’s the point. A mini split runs its own lines to each room. They are really effiecint like cop of 2.5-3 up to 0 and can work up to -25. But they cost money.

The main trunk in your house will have branch offs for each duct main floor or basement. There will not be 2 seperate runs.
.

He didn’t say save money he said make more comfortable.
He also asked how to separate up from down hence would need two separate runs


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[kitchenTablesaw]

I think 850xpeps assumed I was interested in minimizing costs due to the fact that I closed vents in rooms not being used. Not an incorrect assumption. I guess I'm after good value - a middle ground between comfort and costs.

I can live with how things are for the time being, but down the line I can see it becoming important to keep the basement level at a more comfortable temperature, and doing so while minimizing expenses will definitely be a consideration.

 

[Kaizen]

Thanks for the feedback. Mini spit and wifi-based vents are two of the options I've been researching the last little bit. Some interesting possibilities out there. Certainly lots that can be done with home automation in mind/use.

There are also some inline duct-block things which operate off low voltage and can be tied into a home-automation relay. These can be installed right inline in pretty much any size-compatible duct, and controlled remotely via home automation tools.

I took some photos of the furnace in the utility room. Can anyone tell me anything about this setup? Short of knowing that there must be a main duct leaving the furnace, and another for air return, I have no idea of what I'm looking at.

The unit itself:

Same angle, from further back:

Ducting above entry-way through which the previous photo was taken. The ~four inch round duct leads to the water heater.

Seems like something leading directly up, above the furnace:

To the left is a "soft" 6" duct leading behind the wall.

Behind the furnace:

Heat pump closeup:

The pipe going to water heater is glue pipe actually coming from both and going up through the floor to roof most likely.
Hot air systems have a supply and a return. Return is always bigger. Six inch is supply and rectangle coming back is return. You change the filters in it? That will increase performance


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[850xpeps]

He didn’t say save money he said make more comfortable.
He also asked how to separate up from down hence would need two separate runs


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He said heating the downstairs seems pointless. If that’s not financially driven then what is it?

Systems setup by good contractors are balanced systems. So by cutting off flow to the room and the return side style trying to pull air would effect the balance of the house. Creating a less efficient system over all and less comfort over all.

 

[850xpeps]

I think 850xpeps assumed I was interested in minimizing costs due to the fact that I closed vents in rooms not being used. Not an incorrect assumption. I guess I'm after good value - a middle ground between comfort and costs.

I can live with how things are for the time being, but down the line I can see it becoming important to keep the basement level at a more comfortable temperature, and doing so while minimizing expenses will definitely be a consideration.

Your best way to gettin a more comfortable even heat in the basement would be to have a system capable to be run at lower temperatures longer. Like a 2 stage heat pump on lower setting. The longer it runs the more even the air will be.


Depending on basement and what stage the floor is at. Adding a sub floor over top of wood can help if the slab is touching cool soil and bringing that temp into the basement.

Something like this? I think a cheaper option to buying a second mini split. Unless your heat pump is able to supply other splits. That I couldn’t tell you.

This is how my new system is for my new place. A completely cummicable system. My heat pump is variable speed. So anywhere it wants or I tell it to run it will. Which will keep my humidity down with the Ac without freezing the basement.

I understand you don’t have the choice of picking your system. But maybe some heat pump info would help?

 

[kitchenTablesaw]

The pipe going to water heater is glue pipe actually coming from both and going up through the floor to roof most likely.
Hot air systems have a supply and a return. Return is always bigger. Six inch is supply and rectangle coming back is return. You change the filters in it? That will increase performance


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Thanks!

So:
- the black, 6", round hose is supply of "new" air (presumably from outside?)
- the rectangular duct with that white/red "power vac" sticker is the return
- the ducting above the heat pump (which itself sits on the furnace) is the main duct for warm air

Am I understanding correctly?

Systems setup by good contractors are balanced systems. So by cutting off flow to the room and the return side style trying to pull air would effect the balance of the house. Creating a less efficient system over all and less comfort over all.

Right; have read that in other spots, too. Will open all vents and see how things go.

Your best way to gettin a more comfortable even heat in the basement would be to have a system capable to be run at lower temperatures longer. Like a 2 stage heat pump on lower setting. The longer it runs the more even the air will be.

I understand that my heating can run off either electric (heat pump) or natural gas (furnace) and this is controlled by the termostat. I'm not sure how many stages my heat pump has - will find out. I know the furnace is single-stage, and I've read up on single vs dual stage furnaces to find out the differences, which sound just like what you're describing for the heat pump.

Depending on basement and what stage the floor is at. Adding a sub floor over top of wood can help if the slab is touching cool soil and bringing that temp into the basement.

Something like this? I think a cheaper option to buying a second mini split. Unless your heat pump is able to supply other splits. That I couldn’t tell you.

My basement is fully finished, but all of the flooring is carpet and in horrible condition. I plan to replace it all with laminate, which means flooring (and baseboards) will get removed. I guess that would be a good time to install a sub floor Thanks for the tip!

But maybe some heat pump info would help?

It is a "13 SEER High Efficiency Split System." Just found the manual for it (also online here), will do some reading.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It depends how the main run goes. Guessing the upstairs and down are off the same trunk supply. So in ceiling of basement is supply with some going down and some up. To do what you are talking about another trunk would need to be run and just supply one floor. Probably about the same as a new heat source.

One option you might have is something I saw on this old house. Or ask this old house. It was WiFi controlled dampers that go in each room. They basically run on a program you set or from a phone you can change the temp. So at night the bedrooms could be wide open and other rooms will close to direct the heat where you want it. It was at least a year ago I saw it. Guessing those are not cheap either.


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Retrofitting is not cheap and doesn't work well. A multi zone system really needs to have a multi speed blower motor and capacity control on both the heating and cooling, so designing the system from scratch is the best way to go.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

The supply is usually taken from in that room unless you have an air to air heat exchanger in that wall. You would see a vent on the outside. Supply is heated and pushed out to all the rooms.


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[850xpeps]

The supply is usually taken from in that room unless you have an air to air heat exchanger in that wall. You would see a vent on the outside. Supply is heated and pushed out to all the rooms.


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Supply is pulled from return air duct on the left of his photos. There should be return air in each room. Push air in and pull it out. The supply is on top the furnace blowing through his coil that’s connected to Ac/heat pump.

What do you mean by supply is usually taken from in that room?

 

[850xpeps]

Thanks for the feedback. Mini spit and wifi-based vents are two of the options I've been researching the last little bit. Some interesting possibilities out there. Certainly lots that can be done with home automation in mind/use.

There are also some inline duct-block things which operate off low voltage and can be tied into a home-automation relay. These can be installed right inline in pretty much any size-compatible duct, and controlled remotely via home automation tools.

I took some photos of the furnace in the utility room. Can anyone tell me anything about this setup? Short of knowing that there must be a main duct leaving the furnace, and another for air return, I have no idea of what I'm looking at.

The unit itself:

Same angle, from further back:

Ducting above entry-way through which the previous photo was taken. The ~four inch round duct leads to the water heater.

Seems like something leading directly up, above the furnace:

To the left is a "soft" 6" duct leading behind the wall.

Behind the furnace:

Heat pump closeup:

The 4” to the water heater is the exhaust for both. And maybe the 6” flex is fresh air intake because of the gas units? I don’t know. Would have to know where it goes.

 

[SALIV8]

There needs to be a dielectric Union on the cold water supply on the HW heater as far as I can tell.

 

[Kaizen]

Supply is pulled from return air duct on the left of his photos. There should be return air in each room. Push air in and pull it out. The supply is on top the furnace blowing through his coil that’s connected to Ac/heat pump.

What do you mean by supply is usually taken from in that room?

Internal air


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