How important is COO to you and why?

[JonDick13926]

I took a longish break from this forum, but back in 2014 when I started posting here, nearly everyone was big on buying USA made. I’m getting the vibe that that is changing now. Does COO matter to you? Why or why not?

For me it matters for a couple of reasons. I don’t necessarily need USA made, but generally try to buy USA, German, Swiss, and a select other few. The quality gap still seems to be there, even if it is shrinking a tiny bit.

Also, I’m not a China fan for other reasons that don’t pertain to the garage journal, so I’m not mentioning them. Let’s just say that if I have to choose between China and anything else, I’ll choose “anything else” on principle alone, even if China continues to increase quality.

 

[1982fxr]

Usa

ftw

 

[M6erfan]

If I could find made in America tools with the features that I want at a competitive price-point, my box would be all "U.S.A."

I have a lot of USA tools in my arsenal but I have no problem buying made in Japan, Germany, Switzerland, or Taiwan. It used to be that the quality gap was wide and Euro/Japan tools were hard to source, but that is not the case today.

So is U.S.A. COO important to me? Yes and no. One can by tools made elsewhere and still support small U.S. businesses like Frankstools, Toolllady, KCtools, etc.

I avoid COO China whenever possible.

With Craftsman U.S.A all but gone, 'Joe Homeowner' has more options than ever for quality tools that are made outside the U.S at an affordable price point. Look at Tekton...Their success breaking into one of the most competitive markets in the world is a great example.

And buying used old U.S.A made tools doesn't wash with me. First, many of those tools do not have the features that I look for and second, buying used in no way supports current American business/workers. So to me, there is no point in that path.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Doesn’t matter to me, though I’d prefer my German hand tools to any USA-made tools that I have. My cordless tools are made in China as most are.

If it gets the job done, I’m not picky. A nail doesn’t care where the hammer was made.

 

[GetEmSnappy]

It's about the quality of the alloy more so than COO. Generally speaking, steel billet made in the USA (particularly those alloys used by Snap-on and it's like) are of the highest quality available on the planet. Germans have the same types of steel, but I've yet to see the quality tools we produce here.

 

[cgrutt]

I always have preferred to buy USA whenever possible. This goes beyond tools. German or Japan would be next preference. I've purchased alot of Milwaukee cordless tools over past couple of years which I suppose is one exception to my strong aversion to Made in China but honestly have had some problems and am currently looking at Festool/Fein for my next corded and cordless tool purchases. Quality has always mattered to me over price even if the distinction is mostly in my head lol...

 

[eyeball]

When possible, I buy products that are made in the USA. My reason is that if I expect to be paid a good wage for what I do, I can’t begrudge that same opportunity to a fellow American.

When I buy American made products, in addition to supporting the worker that made it, the profits are also reinvested here in our country to provide the same opportunity to others.

I do my best to avoid supporting countries that exploit their workers, blatantly steal intellectual property, and dump their products on our shores at below cost government subsidized prices to drive American companies out of business.

I know cost is the major factor for many Americans. But as a society, we can’t continue to run into the nearest Walmart to buy the cheapest imported version of what we need while at the same time lamenting the fact that there aren’t any “good jobs”.

 

[Kaervak]

Something my grandfather was big on was buying US made as much as possible. I seemingly picked up the trait I prefer to buy the US made variant of a tool if possible. However I have nothing against foreign tools as long as they're quality made. I have plenty of German/Japanese/Taiwan tools that are excellent quality and have never given me an issue.

Some tools though, just don't have a choice as, near as I can find, there aren't US made variants. My spill free funnel, on car bearing press, ball joint press, slide hammer, mityvac testers are china/taiwan. No complaints on quality on any of them though, but a US made variant being out there would have been nice.

 

[Fedwrench]

To me, the tool's quality and performance mean more to me than where it's made. A great tool is a great tool after all . I don't have many PRC made tools aside from my Milwaukee M12/M18 items. I do seem to be acquiring many more Taiwan made tools lately. Perhaps that's because Tekton came out with their new 90 tooth ratchets while SK is taking an extended break from releasing anything new aside from a bottle opener.
As others have mentioned, it also might be hard to find a US made version of a tool, take fine toothed ratcheting wrenches for example. With the demise of Armstrong, you're pretty much left with Snap on and SK for US made.

 

[unslow1]

I don't even look. Some of the crappiest tools I've ever seen were made in the USA. I'm quality first then price.

 

[Sloper0204]

To me, the tool's quality and performance mean more to me than where it's made. A great tool is a great tool after all

Exactly.

 

[nmantas]

With the demise of Armstrong, you're pretty much left with Snap on and SK for US made.

Don't forget Proto and Wright!

 

[TwoInch]

I took a break from GJ for a while too, similar time frame.

I think the biggest cause of that COO acceptance was craftsman going chinese across all hand tools.

That left a huge gap in the home owner USA tool game. It broke my heart to see them gone, even if they weren't the best at the price point.

The fact that the option isn't there for most people has just changed views slowly. Unless your willing to pay big money(relatively), you have to go import. Or wait wait wait to find used. It's just not an option anymore.

My opinions were forced to change as well. I don't like it, but if I need something, ill buy what's available. I have a lot more Asian tools now, but I definitely try to upgrade them when I find used alternatives.

My views are about the same as yours on china. Even so, I do have Chinese stuff obviously, but I try to keep it out of my tool box as much as possible.

Main reason COO matters to me is because the USA needs to continue to lead this world away from the past.. We can't forget what this country has done for freedom in the world, and continue to support things in that vein. No matter ones politics

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[kctyphoon]

Would be nice if everything was, but it isn't - and I'm not paying 2 to 4x the cost to get stuff that is when imports work just as well for me. Some things might be worth it, most isn't, but some brands like Channellock - I will admit it's worth getting since the price is competitive.

It's all a matter of what you're talking about, and what's available. Some stuff, not necessarily tools, there's really no choice when when it comes to safety equipment. I'm not trusting a Chinese hook to keep me from falling from 20' in the air. A guy saying he needs it to keep his knuckle from possibly getting scratched makes me laugh.

 

[RoundedNut]

Economically, tools are insignificant and for anything more than a simple hunk of shaped metal, I prefer Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

For furniture and other woody items, its local Canadian, European and some American.

For food, I prefer local produce/products since I believe shipping tomatoes from California 1000's of miles is retarded.

Of the small percentage spent on tools, I usually find Taiwanese tools to have the best quality/price combination. Japanese, German and the odd American tools are okay. Chinese tools imported into Canada seem okay but I don't buy American branded Chinese tools with the rare exceptions like Dewalt power tools.

 

[JoeMcGov]

In the last 10 years or so many "made in America" manufacturers moved their tool manufacturing equipment oversees which then saw the big upward change in import quality.

To answer the OP's question/query. NO. COO doesn't influence my decision to buy. Or more to your point: to not buy.

And now the lawyer part: YMMV.

 

[JonDick13926]

I know cost is the major factor for many Americans. But as a society, we can’t continue to run into the nearest Walmart to buy the cheapest imported version of what we need while at the same time lamenting the fact that there aren’t any “good jobs”.

This is a good point. There are explicit costs that everyone feels in the wallet, and there are additional implicit costs that you may not feel when the purchase is made but still exists and should be factored in if you’re one of those people that breaks down the cost of a tool over its lifespan. One of those implicit costs being money going to another countries economy that could have gone to ours.

 

[TwoInch]

.

For food, I prefer local produce/products since I believe shipping tomatoes from California 1000's of miles is retarded.

.

I can't really say it's retarded...

I wish everyone had that opportunity. Reality is that to supply people every where with tomatoes in Minnesota, Vermont, Anywhere with winter, they must be shipped long distance from warmer climates.

Small local organic/indoor growers can't support even a tiny fraction of the produce that NEEDS to be consumed by people.

Though I do my best to do the same when it's possible.. Which is a very short window per year for most produce items.


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[Toolhorder]

I took a break from here too and these type of questions were being discussed since I've been a member here. I think a lot of us are getting older and the younger ones coming into the group have no issues buying Chinese/Taiwan because they don't remember a time when US made tools were superior.
When I was a kid my dad was a contractor in the 80's and he had a lot of US made stuff. He was a big Milwaukee fan. He looked at tools as an investment not how much they cost.
I'm probably 90% in US made Snap-on/MAC/Cornwell/Matco and maybe 10% other stuff that I got because I needed something NOW to finish a job or no US made tool equivalent exists.
I'm sad to have witnessed the changes since I started collecting at 15 yrs. old. The demise of C-man, MAC turning into mostly taiwan junk at US made tool prices, Snap-on even trying to sell out a little. It's a shame these shareholders and CEOs have ruined our manufacturing in this country.
Whenever I can I buy American. When I get used I try to buy American, usually it's better is why.
I can't stand HF and the junk they sell.

 

[CJM8515]

dont honestly care, quality over coo imho.

 

[finn]

Quality matters: COO doesn’t have any relationship to quality, though.

I didn’t stop buying clothing when textiles moved from New England to the Southeast, and then Asia.

Nobody stopped buying steel when the mills went from Pennsylvania and Ohio to the South, and then Asia.

Tools are just following the migration from high production cost countries to low cost countries.

Simple economics.

Quality doesn’t depend on COO, or even workers: it depends on corporate management.

 

[Farmall450]

Very, I look good American made stuff.

 

[ftb]

COO first.

Quality usually follows COO pretty closely...

 

[The Fall]

Very important. I'm a big fan of American-made tools and I'll wait to buy from (mainly) SK and Wright. Occasionally the tool trucks. I only buy imported tools when I simply can't justify the price on a tool I'll seldom use. My tool box at work is comprised of approximately 80% USA-made tools. My family made a living in the construction trades. Consequently, a premium was always placed on good tools made in the USA.

 

[ChrisLS8]

It's fairly important however quality and funtion are far more important. I won't Overpay for a US product especially if an import equivalent is either better designed or functional for the price

 

[Wamsutta]

It's extremely important to me because I know buying a tool made in Tennessee is not going to aggravate me.

 

[ken w.]

I have 90 % + USA made tools. I wont pay Snap On for tools made in Taiwan with a SO inflated price either. I have no problem with buying used USA made tools. If your not in a real hurry for the tools , do some searching on the net and you can find some real good deals on good quality tools. If the tool truck has a tool made in Asia , then you can find it a lot cheaper online.

 

[PartsGuy]

And buying used old U.S.A made tools doesn't wash with me. First, many of those tools do not have the features that I look for and second, buying used in no way supports current American business/workers. So to me, there is no point in that path.

Buying used US-made tools does support the re-seller, often someone local or at least from your country. I agree that the original manufacturer sees no profit from these private purchases on the secondary market, but technically it does deny the import manufacturer or the seller of an imported product a sale. For example, I passed up a new Harbor Freight tap and die set recently (about $40), and instead purchased a used US-made set for about the same money, including the shipping. I got a US-made tool that fits my needs, the money went to an eBay seller in the US, supporting their local economy, as well as giving the post office some business and my letter carrier something else to do. Same idea if I pick something up at my local pawn shop or flea market, but even better because I can keep it local. If the tools do not have the features you look for, however, its a moot point where they come from, because you wouldn't buy them regardless of COO.
If I can justify the price, I buy new US-made quality brands. If I can't swing it, then I look into that product in used condition. Still nothing? Then I will consider the new import...
(And by "import" I'm mostly referring to Asian manufacturing...)

 

[619DioFan]

As long as the quality is good I don't care where the tools come from. If it were not for HF I would not have half the tools I do. and if it were not for overseas made clothes sold at walmart I would be walking around naked.

 

[M6erfan]

Buying used US-made tools does support the re-seller, often someone local or at least from your country. I agree that the original manufacturer sees no profit from these private purchases on the secondary market, but technically it does deny the import manufacturer or the seller of an imported product a sale. For example, I passed up a new Harbor Freight tap and die set recently (about $40), and instead purchased a used US-made set for about the same money, including the shipping. I got a US-made tool that fits my needs, the money went to an eBay seller in the US, supporting their local economy, as well as giving the post office some business and my letter carrier something else to do. Same idea if I pick something up at my local pawn shop or flea market, but even better because I can keep it local. If the tools do not have the features you look for, however, its a moot point where they come from, because you wouldn't buy them regardless of COO.
If I can justify the price, I buy new US-made quality brands. If I can't swing it, then I look into that product in used condition. Still nothing? Then I will consider the new import...
(And by "import" I'm mostly referring to Asian manufacturing...)

I get where your coming from and it supports my point about supporting Frank or KC Tools every time I buy Ko-ken or Knipex from them.

But notice I said "current businesses/workers". Buying used does nothing to put food on their tables, today. I mean, do you really think if everyone hit up up flea markets or eBay that would have saved Sears or Armstrong?

 

[Yarpo]

If I could find made in America tools with the features that I want at a competitive price-point, my box would be all "U.S.A."

I have a lot of USA tools in my arsenal but I have no problem buying made in Japan, Germany, Switzerland, or Taiwan. It used to be that the quality gap was wide and Euro/Japan tools were hard to source, but that is not the case today.

So is U.S.A. COO important to me? Yes and no. One can by tools made elsewhere and still support small U.S. businesses like Frankstools, Toolllady, KCtools, etc.

I avoid COO China whenever possible.

Exactly me. I'd like to buy USA tools, and if all things where equal I certainly would. However the price is often far above the competition, and the features or performance only marginally so if at all.

To me, the tool's quality and performance mean more to me than where it's made. A great tool is a great tool after all I do seem to be acquiring many more Taiwan made tools lately.

Me2, I think Taiwan tools certainly rule my box (Tekton/GW/Carlyle/Capri) but I have a fair share of great American made tools too, just fewer of them. (Cornwell/Snap-on/Wilde/Channellock)

 

[Negen]

I can't really say it's retarded...

I wish everyone had that opportunity. Reality is that to supply people every where with tomatoes in Minnesota, Vermont, Anywhere with winter, they must be shipped long distance from warmer climates.

Small local organic/indoor growers can't support even a tiny fraction of the produce that NEEDS to be consumed by people.

Though I do my best to do the same when it's possible.. Which is a very short window per year for most produce items.


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A company could grow tomatoes hydroponically and organic too locally year round. And wouldn't cost much more than sticking them on a diesel truck and shipping across the country. It would probably have less emissions and the money would stay local thus boosting local economy.

As far as coo I mainly just try to avoid China. I like koken and proto for ratchets and sockets. I like German power tools. I have one Italian hammer that is nice. America used to make great stuff now there is nothing much for the middle. Wilde and channel lock are a affordable but I don't like the sharp edges quality tool none the less but could be better if a little more time was spent. Used to be able to big half decent tools without needing to plan a budget now for me anyways I have to build a 3/8 set first then I worked on 1/4 and 1/2 it's been since 2015 since I started building my socket set. Got lucky with proto 10mm-32mm in 1/2 drive no skips for 119$ best buy yet. My 3/8th set still needs deeps and there are some skips. I have started a mm 1/4 yet. But old days used be able to afford decent tools without needing to spread across 3+ years.

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[M6erfan]

A company could grow tomatoes hydroponically and organic too locally year round. And wouldn't cost much more than sticking them on a diesel truck and shipping across the country. /QUOTE]

If this were true I would think the profit motive would lead someone to do it.

 

[sberry]

Would be nice if everything was, but it isn't - and I'm not paying 2 to 4x the cost to get stuff that is when imports work just as well for me. Some things might be worth it, most isn't, but some brands like Channellock - I will admit it's worth getting since the price is competitive.

If it was all 2x or 4x it would be a different matter, some of it is 20 to 1 now. Sears being 10% the cost of the truck used to make it a bargain, now it is in that 20 to 1 range when you buy it in super sale sets.
Its one thing to fuss over a 30$ wrench but I am really more impressed by how good the 1.50 wrench has become.

 

[Copymutt]

I have not made anything in Chiner yet, but if I do it will be as good as what I made in America.

 

[kctyphoon]

When possible, I buy products that are made in the USA. My reason is that if I expect to be paid a good wage for what I do, I can’t begrudge that same opportunity to a fellow American.

When I buy American made products, in addition to supporting the worker that made it, the profits are also reinvested here in our country to provide the same opportunity to others.

I do my best to avoid supporting countries that exploit their workers, blatantly steal intellectual property, and dump their products on our shores at below cost government subsidized prices to drive American companies out of business.

I know cost is the major factor for many Americans. But as a society, we can’t continue to run into the nearest Walmart to buy the cheapest imported version of what we need while at the same time lamenting the fact that there aren’t any “good jobs”.

This is true and not true at the same time.. if all companies were interested in creating more jobs, then some wouldn't charge obscene prices for the "made in America" label and continue to market it as the uber expensive elite choice when their profit margins are sky high. They could easily cut costs, or introduce a less expensive alternative that offer limited over lifetime warranties. Some places are more than happy to cater to the few instead of the masses, when they can ultimately make the same profits just by the type of customer they market their brand towards.. you can't blame the average joe for not going out of his way when so many brands CAN make items locally but choose to make more money instead.. you can't blame some businesses that are also just trying to grow or keep their business as profitable as possible - cause - that's the point.. it's much more complex than just saying - "people should just spend more and buy domestic" It was simpler decades ago, cause you didn't have 1000 brands all competing for the same customers. It was more expensive to import items and that at least help level the playing field a bit - when "imported" meant "more expensive" back then. Things are much more complex now, which is why you see these issues trying to be addressed through politics instead of just at the cash register.

My point is, its wrong to focus on one issue and place ultimate blame on the consumer. It's like saying, less people would need healthcare if they would "just" shop at Whole Foods and only buy organic. Or if people would "just" buy more expensive homes that weren't next to power lines, there wouldn't be cancer clusters. Or if people would "just" buy newer or electric cars, we can combat global warming. Or - if people would "just" stop buying plastic bottles, we wouldn't have plastic islands floating in the ocean.. people, as a whole, are just trying to get Buy as well as they can, and expecting them to constantly sacrifice in an attempt to satisfy EVERY PERSON that has a cause on this earth is unrealistic and unfair. You name the cause, and the answer will always be that people should "just" spend more money, or live with unrealistic inconveniences for the times. It's impossible to satisfy everyone else and still have enough left over for yourself. At what point should people value their own well being for themselves and their family before they do something extra for everyone else?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't try to contribute where they can, but to expect everyone else to follow the same ambitions you share, is unrealistic and unfair. You can't judge people on a single issue. For the record, much of this is just a general statement to the forum, and only my opinion. I'm not trying to single out the person I quoted. His post just sparked my idea.

 

[M6erfan]

This is true and not true at the same time.. if all companies were interested in creating more jobs, then some wouldn't charge obscene prices for the "made in America" label and continue to market it as the uber expensive elite choice when their profit margins are sky high. They could easily cut costs, or introduce a less expensive alternative that offer limited over lifetime warranties. Some places are more than happy to cater to the few instead of the masses, when they can ultimately make the same profits just by the type of customer they market their brand towards.. you can't blame the average joe for not going out of his way when so many brands CAN make items locally but choose to make more money instead.. you can't blame some businesses that are also just trying to grow or keep their business as profitable as possible - cause - that's the point.. it's much more complex than just saying - "people should just spend more and buy domestic" It was simpler decades ago, cause you didn't have 1000 brands all competing for the same customers. It was more expensive to import items and that at least help level the playing field a bit - when "imported" meant "more expensive" back then. Things are much more complex now, which is why you see these issues trying to be addressed through politics instead of just at the cash register.

Agreed. And well said.

This conversation can easily go down the 'politics' road, so lets not do that and get another thread locked.

I think the remaining high price point USA hand tool brands profit off govt. and corp. contracts. The end user sales are probably a pittance compared to those. It's easy to blame the overseas manufacturers or importing companies, but as KCTyphoon pointed out, it's not that easy. Or at least it's not that accurate.

 

[Toolhorder]

Quality matters: COO doesn’t have any relationship to quality, though.

I didn’t stop buying clothing when textiles moved from New England to the Southeast, and then Asia.

Nobody stopped buying steel when the mills went from Pennsylvania and Ohio to the South, and then Asia.

Tools are just following the migration from high production cost countries to low cost countries.

Simple economics.

Quality doesn’t depend on COO, or even workers: it depends on corporate management.

I disagree completely. Boots are a great example. Bought several pair of whatever COO brand/boot that was in the $50-100 range for the first several years of working as a mechanic. Broke down one day and bought redwings made in the US that were almost $300. I still have those boots and they've been re-soled and repaired but they still look great and haven't failed me. I've since bought two more pair one in steel toe and one in brown. The boots that were made in India, China, Taiwan lasted 6 months to a year tops. Literally falling apart.
Tools are getting better but I don't buy them on quality alone. I'm for America not Taiwan/China. Lurking in this thread it irritates me that people don't care about workers in our country it's just the price and so called quality they care about. I suspect the "quality" is just their opinion and plenty of inferior tools make their list. It's a shame guys like me are in the minority and most people don't know, don't care it's just the Walmart mentality.

 

[mikebaker1129]

I took a longish break from this forum, but back in 2014 when I started posting here, nearly everyone was big on buying USA made. I’m getting the vibe that that is changing now. Does COO matter to you? Why or why not?

For me it matters for a couple of reasons. I don’t necessarily need USA made, but generally try to buy USA, German, Swiss, and a select other few. The quality gap still seems to be there, even if it is shrinking a tiny bit.

Also, I’m not a China fan for other reasons that don’t pertain to the garage journal, so I’m not mentioning them. Let’s just say that if I have to choose between China and anything else, I’ll choose “anything else” on principle alone, even if China continues to increase quality.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts !
I feel the same way about China.......

 

[kctyphoon]

I disagree completely. Boots are a great example. Bought several pair of whatever COO brand/boot that was in the $50-100 range for the first several years of working as a mechanic. Broke down one day and bought redwings made in the US that were almost $300. I still have those boots and they've been re-soled and repaired but they still look great and haven't failed me. I've since bought two more pair one in steel toe and one in brown. The boots that were made in India, China, Taiwan lasted 6 months to a year tops. Literally falling apart.
Tools are getting better but I don't buy them on quality alone. I'm for America not Taiwan/China. Lurking in this thread it irritates me that people don't care about workers in our country it's just the price and so called quality they care about. I suspect the "quality" is just their opinion and plenty of inferior tools make their list. It's a shame guys like me are in the minority and most people don't know, don't care it's just the Walmart mentality.

The boots are not a good example. A better example would have been the same model made in America vs elsewhere. Comparing $50 boots to $300+ redwings is a big stretch. They are not meant to compete with each other.

Reaffirming my point - do you ONLY buy local produce?? I coulda accuse you of not caring about American jobs... are you out feeding the homeless on the weekends?? No? You don't care about our own people?? there's no end to this.. you can't judge people off a single issue on a garage journal forum.