Garage build dreams or pipe dreams?

[aggie113]

So, I've owned my home for a few years and one thing it's still missing is a garage. One thing I always hear is build as big as you can. For me being inside San Antonio city limits that's 1200sqft of detached glory (attached wouldn't work with house layout).
My trouble seems to be in finding a good builder who is willing to do the work without me paying for his new boat. I'm looking at a 40x30 metal building with a 14ft wall. The only special thing is the site is on a 4 foot grade.
I've had quotes of over 100k for a build that includes insulation and electrical, had another for 75k without electrical!
I figured my costs along the line of 10-15k for the floor, another 10-12k for the metal building (tons of places in Texas will stamp them out and deliver them on site) and another 12-20k for all the labor including electrical and roll up insulation install.
Am I just crazy? I've been told by many builders that if I just lived outside city limits they'd have no problems with my numbers. It seems putting up with the city is driving up the costs and driving away most of the contractors...

 

[James-W]

I don't think it is crazy to want a nice garage.

I have no idea what the city of San Antonio has for rules and how it affects cost, but since you live there you really don't have all that many options. The only two options I can think of would be you either put up with their rules, or you move.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Am I just crazy? I've been told by many builders that if I just lived outside city limits they'd have no problems with my numbers. It seems putting up with the city is driving up the costs and driving away most of the contractors...

I"m not sure what the difference would be in cost by being just outside city limits, unless it has to do with expensive building permits, but if more than one contractor is giving you high prices it would seem that's what the going rate is going to be. You may consider doing more of the work yourself if possible - get them to put up the shell, then do the finish work.

 

[aggie113]

I don't think it is crazy to want a nice garage.

I have no idea what the city of San Antonio has for rules and how it affects cost, but since you live there you really don't have all that many options. The only two options I can think of would be you either put up with their rules, or you move.

I was not trying to decide if I should build with proper city permitting or not..

 

[climb.on]

I've been told by many builders that if I just lived outside city limits they'd have no problems with my numbers. It seems putting up with the city is driving up the costs and driving away most of the contractors...

I'd ask for specifics on what exactly about "the city" that drives their costs up by 50k? More I can understand. Double? No I don't get that.

If you can get some details, then you can determine if that premium would apply to you as well. Or if you can save some serious coin by DIY or at least being the GC.

 

[matt_i]

I was not trying to decide if I should build with proper city permitting or not..

That's not to decide, its a requirement. Building a structure outside of the building and zoning can land you with a cease and desist order for continuing work and if you don't square things up with that department & pay appropriate fees and penalties you can be given a legally binding order to tear it all down and restore original. None of these are good choices.

I am with the camp that it seems impossible that a building and zoning commission can drive prices up 100% (2x). Being Texas with no state income tax i feel certain they are extremely serious about proper property taxation and want to make sure that your needs are being appropriately cataloged with same. Likely there are more inspection steps along the way but its just a matter of scheduling. They could require some engineering (P.E. stamped design) but thats not going to amount to $50k.

 

[rjn2649]

I was not trying to decide if I should build with proper city permitting or not..

I agree as someone that lives in "permit-to-blow-your-nose-area" I can attest you don't want to push a major structure that is visible.

Most real contractors won't knowingly violate permits laws.

I don't know the lay of the land there, but maybe you're just not asking the right contractors, maybe they aren't used to working in a congested city and don't want to deal with the logistics of working with neighbours 10' away from you?

You may end up being your own GC and doing more work yourself than you want to get a realistic price.

 

[jbwilkins]

I'd ask for specifics on what exactly about "the city" that drives their costs up by 50k? More I can understand. Double? No I don't get that.

If you can get some details, then you can determine if that premium would apply to you as well. Or if you can save some serious coin by DIY or at least being the GC.

This is the route to go, there are a lot of factors that could drive up the cost:

* 1200 SF of 'garage' in a metal building and the city might consider it a 'commercial' structure and have all the same requirements (higher permit fees, dedicated power, sprinklers, etc.)

* Since there's no income tax in TX, and property tax increases make the voters mad, the city might be 'funding' improvements with high permit fees...

* There could be a 'frustration' issue with builder. The city may be hard to work with or difficult to schedule inspections, requiring more of their time to manage the construction...

There are tons of possibilities for the discrepancy ......you're best bet is to ask question on 'why'.....

 

[larry_g]

http://www.staytonoregon.gov/upload/page/0062/2016-17 RES SDC FEES EFFECTIVE 07-01-16.pdf

Above is an example of how a city collects money on new building. You may have SDC's or something similar in your area. So check out all the fee's you may face that are above the cost of the permit. I know that when I had to build my building in the county there was an assessment of $1 per square foot for the local high school.

Now look at your area. Small residential street, no onsite parking, no room to dump excavated dirt, no onsite staging so many trips to and from the site to get the job done.
So I can understand why you pay more for working in the city.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[JoeMcGov]

My guess is you've (the OP'r) not done a complete and comprehensive scope-of-work for the contractors to quote by. The multitude of factors that can influence the cost, due to the corresponding scope-of-work or lack thereof, are almost impossible to list here.

As I'm relative new to this (GJ, not building (I've been a commercial contractor for 33 years)) has anyone done a previous thread with a comprehensive scope-of-work listing? For folks to use as a sort of guideline?

 

[vrinner]

In the beginning stages of my project I tried to get contractors to come out and give me estimates and they were all over the place. Some wouldn't come out at all and other gave super high estimates. I planned my budget to be somewhere in between the lows and highs. Once I got my actual engineered drawings ready contractors were johnny on the spot to come out and give me actual numbers.

Make sure your city will allow the type of building, size, location, color and any other approvals before you go to far down the project. I'm lucky that my property is zoned as residential/agricultural and my city is fairly easy to work with so I was able to get clear instruction from them on what I can build.

 

[Falcon67]

* Since there's no income tax in TX, and property tax increases make the voters mad, the city might be 'funding' improvements with high permit fees...

No, it's more like "barrier to entry". Trying to keep the half serious home hackers at bay. Why you still end up with unpermitted structures in cities here. That and "I can do what-the-hell-I-want-on-my-land" attitude. Even here in easy going west Texas permits and city restrictions on buildings run people out of the city limits. Trying to open a new business in an old building is a good way to get whacked with all kinds of code upgrade requirements. In certain areas it can be used as a "tool" to run off certain business - like radiator shops and used car dealers on a strip that the city prefers to limit primarily to medical type locations.

Property tax increases happen every year whether we like it or not. They may not increase the assessment per 100/valuation but they can increase the valuation within limits. It's a constant tug of war.

Bottom line is that most cities don't really permit large accessory buildings. It's basic standard municipal code stuff. Cut and paste, that's the rules. Why they have variance applications. But it does almost universally cost more to build in town. Runoff/retainment requirements, enviro impact, permits, modified UBC & NEC requirements, etc.

 

[jetnow1]

The newest codes being adopted also drive up costs, I am building an addition for my Sister as my Mom moved in with her- 5 inspections just on the foundation. Believe me
this costs time and money.

 

[APEowner]

My guess is you've (the OP'r) not done a complete and comprehensive scope-of-work for the contractors to quote by. The multitude of factors that can influence the cost, due to the corresponding scope-of-work or lack thereof, are almost impossible to list here.

As I'm relative new to this (GJ, not building (I've been a commercial contractor for 33 years)) has anyone done a previous thread with a comprehensive scope-of-work listing? For folks to use as a sort of guideline?

I think you hit the nail on the head. If there's no well defined scope of work then your going to get high bids and no-bids. It's unpleasant to spend so much time and money before you can even get a realistic bid but that's the way it works. In a related issue you'll find that a lot of the issues that people post about on this board could have been avoided with a well defined scope of work.

I haven't seen a thread with a comprehensive scope of work on here and I think that if one were created it would be an extremely valuable resource. The mods might even be willing to make it a sticky.

 

[ddawg16]

First question.....what are you going to be doing with the building? Run a business?

As far a permit fees and everything else.....I don't see this as a case of "Better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission"...…

The potential costs for 'after the fact' can be a lot worse than just doing it up front.

Case in point....when I was building my 2-story garage.....I found out from the inspector someone had called to complain I was doing un-permitted work. They were also bitching about my compressor. (I had one of those real noise airless jobs...and sometimes I'd forget to turn it off at night and it would come on at 2am)

The inspector swung by one day to mention the compressor....and then told me about the other complaint....no issues.....I was doing everything permitted...…

Tax wise.....while Texans may enjoy no state income taxes....they sure make up for it with property and 'school' taxes....in some cases, those are higher than my property tax and California income tax combined.

 

[Falcon67]

You can cut some of this down by talking to Mueller, etc about a turn key building with a recommendation for an erection company. Then price the slab based on the building parameters provided. That gives you exact building specs and specific details you can use at the planning office to get permit pricing and info on potential road blocks.

 

[kbs2244]

That 4 foot slope is going to cost.

 

[[email protected]]

You’re pretty in line. I paid about 5k for concrete, due to having family in the concrete business, 15k for a 30x40x12 building with 3 roll up doors and a man door through American Steel Carports. I also have another member that does electrical so that was about 3k. He told me that’s something that he would charge about 7-10k for.


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[K13]

So, I've owned my home for a few years and one thing it's still missing is a garage. One thing I always hear is build as big as you can. For me being inside San Antonio city limits that's 1200sqft of detached glory (attached wouldn't work with house layout).
My trouble seems to be in finding a good builder who is willing to do the work without me paying for his new boat. I'm looking at a 40x30 metal building with a 14ft wall. The only special thing is the site is on a 4 foot grade.
I've had quotes of over 100k for a build that includes insulation and electrical, had another for 75k without electrical!
I figured my costs along the line of 10-15k for the floor, another 10-12k for the metal building (tons of places in Texas will stamp them out and deliver them on site) and another 12-20k for all the labor including electrical and roll up insulation install.
Am I just crazy? I've been told by many builders that if I just lived outside city limits they'd have no problems with my numbers. It seems putting up with the city is driving up the costs and driving away most of the contractors...

Where are you factoring in the costs involved with dealing with the 4 foot grade? That isn't going to be cheap.

 

[My Old Tools]

My 30x40x12 is on a 4' slope front to back. It is well outside any permitting jurisdiction. Mine is a red iron metal building on slab and it ran $60,000 with insulation, without electrical or plumbing or interior finish. The slab on a slope added about $20,000 to the build to get it done right.