To RE-wire or not to RE-wire?

[mpire]

I am in the middle of a large renovation project on a small 900 square foot condo. The sub-floors are mostly out and over half of the drywall.

The kitchen and bathroom will be getting all new outlets and wire, but the bedrooms and garage are going to be left alone. Or that's the plan.

I have copper for most stuff, but aluminum for the big wired 240v stuff.

It was installed in 1974.

So the debate is whether or not to replace the breaker box while everything is mostly accessible.

I have had issues with the breakers in another unit for the AC, it looked a little burned but they just cranked it down to be tighter.

So other than just replacing the aluminum wires, should I stick in a modern box with new breakers?

Breakers:

2 x 240v 50 Amp Furnace/Range
2 x 240v 30 Amp WH/Dryer
1 x 240v 20 Amp AC
8 x 120v 20 Amp lights/outlets
2 x 120v 15 Amp lights/outlets

 

[rlitman]

When you say "aluminum for the big wired 240v stuff", please define big.
Also, what sort of copper are we talking about?

 

[yeldogt]

Nothing wrong with AL when properly installed to 240v appliances.

I would upgrade the panel -- nows the time .. and the cost low

 

[mpire]

When you say "aluminum for the big wired 240v stuff", please define big.
Also, what sort of copper are we talking about?

The Furnace, AC, and, stove are aluminum. Although I am replacing the HVAC with a heat pump.

It doesn't look like today's romex. I think its 12/3 copper to most things, but its just twisted wire with black sheathing. No writing on it. Most outlets are daisy chained.

Nothing wrong with AL when properly installed to 240v appliances.

Yeah, I guess aluminum should be OK, but the burned up breaker makes me weary and I have to buy replacement breakers on ebay.

Thanks for your advice. What size breaker box would you think I need?

 

[rlitman]

Nothing wrong with AL when properly installed to 240v appliances...

The only advantage of 240V that makes aluminum better than on 120V is the fact that we can generally assume it is a dedicated circuit, which means that the number of splices (aluminum's biggest short fall) are minimized. Still, I wouldn't be comfortable with a 20A circuit on aluminum wires, regardless of the voltage. Now if you're talking about something bigger, like an electric range circuit, then I might be ok with it.

However, if your condo has aluminum wiring, all of your neighbors likely do too, so putting too much effort into this may not pay off much.

OTOH, I'd be more worried about ancient cloth wrapped 12-2 copper NM without a ground. Some of that stuff is downright awful.

 

[Norcal]

If it was 1960’s AL wiring I would say get rid of it, but since it’s not unless it were really easy I’d leave it alone. The panel is a Bryant BR, the successor panel is Eaton BR which I call “Zinsco II” if you leave the panel intact which won’t work because about everything you touch requires AFCI’s so the panel will be too small. There are two ITE twin breakers in there that don’t belong also even though they are better breakers.

 

[yeldogt]

The OP states that it's copper for "most stuff" and AL for the big wired "240v stuff".

So ...... assuming if it's all from 1974 -- that is going to be modern "romex" type construction with CU running to all the 120v outlets and other items in the house.

Remember -- the lines feeding the house are most likely AL. Any large appliance-- say dryer outlet -- breakers, will be able to take an AL wire. The problem with AL wire back in the 60's and 70's for general house wire was the connection points .. not really the wire.

It's really a question of cost and installation ease -- CU is going to be smaller and a bit more flexible and is often easier with retrofitting. For long open runs AL wins with cost. I'm talking large feeds -- going to sub panels and AC condensers -- dryers, Range/Ovens.

No reason to remove the AL wires feeding the big users unless it's damaged is some way. Not properly tightening the lug or screw is a problem with any connection.

You will find that the panels today are going to be larger -- it's all about the main lug. It's a 40+ year old panel -- now is the time to get it out of there. Remove anything that questionable as for as wiring and button it up ... I typically use the Square D QO panels and breakers for all my projects. Good quality and available everywhere

 

[rlitman]

...
So ...... assuming if it's all from 1974 -- that is going to be modern "romex" type construction with CU running to all the 120v outlets and other items in the house...

Probably, and that sort of wire should be just fine. But if it were installed by someone who had a bunch of 20 year old left over wire (I've seen stranger things)...

...
Remember -- the lines feeding the house are most likely AL. Any large appliance-- say dryer outlet -- breakers, will be able to take an AL wire. The problem with AL wire back in the 60's and 70's for general house wire was the connection points .. not really the wire...

Agreed for the most part. However when it comes to the smaller stuff, like 12 gauge, the wire itself is a problem too. It's too often bent past its limits. So, if we're talking about a dryer, then that's still probably just fine. But I'd replace the wire supplying a through wall air conditioner for example.

...
You will find that the panels today are going to be larger -- it's all about the main lug. It's a 40+ year old panel -- now is the time to get it out of there. Remove anything that questionable as for as wiring and button it up ... I typically use the Square D QO panels and breakers for all my projects. Good quality and available everywhere

The only issue here is that if an inspector sees a panel with a 2018 date on it, they're going to expect everything in that panel to be up to date, so you'll need AFCIs for example. That get expensive fast.

But yeah, newer panels are MUCH nicer to work in.

 

[Norcal]

The big issue with aluminum conductors is if they are aluminum or aluminum alloy like they are today and the OP’s would be aluminum alloy which is good as it helped with the issues that made AL infamous.

 

[dutchgray]

Its all 40 plus years old, you're already doing much of the work you need to do to rewire anyway this is the chance to do it all properly so you don't have to do anything else to it for a good while. Have the lot out and replace it all.

 

[sberry]

Sounds like the copper may have a ground wire, this means modern coating too. Its already 40 years old. I would take a good looksee to anything I had apart, make sure its not brittle and connections are sound. Now is the time to pull new wire and add anything you are not happy with and to tailor any circuits.
We all have our little peeves and economy but I am a service upgrade junkie if I can do it reasonable and if any of it is faulty. If the panel was in great shape may leave it for another day if I didn't need additional spaces. Generally if I get a chance to replace an old wire or device I do it.
I was going to ask an inspector what version of code we are under, last one I did under on a new home didn't say a word about AFCI

 

[sberry]

Appliance like a dryer would get a new 4 wire and cord. Same for old range ****. If I was remodeling would get a modern circuit.

 

[Norcal]

1974 NM cable was 60 degree C rated, modern NM-B has 90 degree C insulation, which is a good reason to replace.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

since the walls are already open, no time like now to replace. Can you post a picture of the copper wire?

And i would replace the AL wiring on that small furnace circuit for the heat pump.

definitely replace that old POS panel.

 

[sberry]

I agree,,,, NM B a whole generation or 3 and 40 yrs newer. I seen an episode pf Old House, a couple shack rooms and another 150K addition on it, left a bunch of 50 or more yr old wiring and some AL from another renovation in it. Didn't have far to go and it would have been all new.

 

[chaosracing]

Question for the OP.....did you pull a permit for this work? If so, that means an inspection. Your better off at least replacing the panel with a newer one. But you need to have a conversation with the inspector as to what their requirements are. Alot of places are now going with the "once you touch it, it must be updated to modern codes" approach. Since you have access to just about everything from the sound of it, it would be a prudent time to look over everything.

If it was my place, I would upgrade everything to modern codes and wiring. Then there is no problems down the road. Not sure if these are bought and sold condos or just rentals, but alot of insurance companies will not write policies with outdated electrical. Not saying you cant get one as is now, but down the road, (say 10, 20 years) there might be issues.

 

[Charlie K]

I will bet you that the romex is copper clad aluminum. If it is all wiring devices should be rated for cu clad.$$

 

[Norcal]

I will bet you that the romex is copper clad aluminum. If it is all wiring devices should be rated for cu clad.$$

CU clad wire can be used with devices rated for copper conductors, that was the whole reason for CU clad AL. If it's copper clad aluminum it will say so on the jacket, & 15A circuits will be 12 AWG & 20A will be 10 AWG.

 

[reader2580]

I replaced the aluminum wire running to my electric range as it had three wires and someone had installed a four wire outlet.

 

[Jim greengo]

Depends on if we're talking about late 60s aluminum wire,or more modern aluminum wire.
As far as panel goes,I'd swap it out while you're in there.

 

[Bert_]

Aluminum to things like range, dryer, and furnace especially isn't a big issue. Those types of things have lugs that are rated for aluminum and make a good reliable connection. They have very few problems compared to 15 and 20A circuits that connect with screws.

I would be more interested in replacing the panel, those old Bryant panels were pretty cheap in they're day, the eaton BR series is basically the same thing and you will here many people bash brand new ones. Plus that is a tiny panel that already has a bunch of twins.


I wouldn't be worried a bit about 70's wire powering things like bedrooms/ect. You are already addressing the normal area's like kitchen and bathrooms. The problem isn't the wire, usually just not enough circuits in area's like kitchen and bathrooms.

 

[sberry]

The main issue with old circuits on major appliances is if its old aluminum wire its likely 3 wire bonded neutral. While those are legal under grandfathering they are outdated. If I get a chance I for one want to upgrade those types of circuits. It takes a cordchange too but it gives me warm fuzzies knowing they are modern and current code compliant.
4 wire is far superior.

 

[rharman]

40 y/o wiring, open shell, 900 sq ft.?? I'd be replacing that in a heartbeat just for peace of mind. Probably redo the switches/outlets for more distinct circuits too.

 

[mpire]

I would be more interested in replacing the panel, those old Bryant panels were pretty cheap in they're day, the eaton BR series is basically the same thing and you will here many people bash brand new ones. Plus that is a tiny panel that already has a bunch of twins.

What's a decent brand of breaker box? Is Square D acceptable?

 

[sberry]

Yes.

 

[Lightman]

Square D "Homeline" or the "QO" line.

Or the Square D homeline with the integrated neutral connection for the Arc fault breaker without pigtail?

(Old retired guy working at Lowes part time seeing new panels and breakers. )

 

[Norcal]

What's a decent brand of breaker box? Is Square D acceptable?

My first choice is Cutler-Hammer (Now Eaton) CH, second choice is Siemens, third would be SQ D QO. A copper bussed panel is superior to aluminum bussing.

Under no circumstances would I use Eaton BR, the worst panel on the market.

 

[Moto]

How long do you expect to own the condo?

How long do you expect it might be before the condo is bulldozed and the land redeveloped?

Hard to be sure about either of those, but you need to keep those issues in mind when renovating.

 

[mpire]

Under no circumstances would I use Eaton BR, the worst panel on the market.

Which is the equivalent of my existing panel, but mine is 45 years old.

 

[rlitman]

My first choice is Cutler-Hammer (Now Eaton) CH, second choice is Siemens, third would be SQ D QO. A copper bussed panel is superior to aluminum bussing.

Under no circumstances would I use Eaton BR, the worst panel on the market.

Many (perhaps most) QO panels have an aluminum bus now.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The SqD and Siemens panels, as well as the CH Cutler panels are available with Cu busses.
The first 2 are tin plated, but the CH has silver plating.

 

[Norcal]

Which is the equivalent of my existing panel, but mine is 45 years old.

The current BR design is based on the old Challenger design and the company that Challenger became was originally Zinsco, and they all were/are chasing the bottom market, Eaton’s slogan for the BR line is “engineered value” which is another way to say cheap. My way to judge a building is what electrical equipment was installed, cheap equipment = **** building.

 

[mike93lx]

40 y/o wiring, open shell, 900 sq ft.?? I'd be replacing that in a heartbeat just for peace of mind. Probably redo the switches/outlets for more distinct circuits too.

This.
No chance i would leave that panel and wiring in place

 

[850xpeps]

Square D "Homeline" or the "QO" line.

Or the Square D homeline with the integrated neutral connection for the Arc fault breaker without pigtail?

(Old retired guy working at Lowes part time seeing new panels and breakers. )

This is what I put in my house. Schneider home line. The pigtail less breakers are nice. Saves from clutter. I seen the electricians cost was $38 cad lol I haven’t gotten the bill yet as everything isn’t done so will see. Happy with the panel though and the twin breakers.

To op with just a 900sqft condo you should be fine with a 40 space panel I’d guess. But if there’s room to mount larger it never hurts. I’m assuming you have a permit? Count how many circuits you need. Remember arc fault take up 2 slots. With homelike panels you can’t get a 15/30/30/15 for stuff like heat pump and stove. They only use 4 spaces where as old 30/30 would use the same space.