2018 Garage Sale Thread

[BlueBomber]

Picked up a trampoline for free off of Letgo. I'll use it and another I got earlier this year to build a firewood rack.

This was a completely online transaction: only chat messages from within the Letgo app, no one home at the address. I ask if I could also have a bed rail frame in the backyard with a bunch of other random stuff. He replied "Take it. Take whatever you want. Take it all." I got a little spooked at that point and decided to leave with just the two above items. I took pictures and will keep the chat thread on my phone in case the cops come a knockin'....

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[duddly]

Wow! thanks Lugz! That definitely was MY score of the year! Sometimes you just see something on Craigslist that makes you go WHAAAAT?

And as others have said - thanks for hosting this year! Your moderating, along with your knowledge have made this a great year for the thread.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Lugz,
Heck of a job you've done this year!!! This is my first year to participate in the GS thread. I feel sorry for the guy who has to follow your footsteps as host of the 2019 GS thread. You really have set the standard for how a host can engage with participants, keep it fun and always informative! It's been really a lot of fun and you deserve most of the credit for that! THANK YOU!!!!

 

[rmalkow2]

First of all congrats to duddly. That was a unique and very rare find especially as the signs look to be in excellent condition. As we know it's rare that people took good care of things like this and maybe speaks of the pride in the original shop they came from.
Good eye for picking that entry Lugs out of the ocean of really awesome tools and stuff we see regularly.

I'm very humbled that you would mention my posts at all so thank you for that. As most of us do, I tend to shop in my own home area all year long unless its something bought online. So knowing that I had over 5500 miles to drive in 3 weeks this summer it became a fun hunt for me to see what treasures I could find to my liking in a very large part of this country. The pieces I bought will be enjoyed but, the fun of the hunt makes for good memories.

I too will say you have done a great job hosting this year. I looked forward to reading your comments and encouragements for everyone who contributes to this thread. The idea of the prizes is yet another good way to close out the 2018 year. Merry Christmas to all GJ and looking forward to the deals of 2019!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. I am sure whoever we vote in for 2019 will do a bang-up job. Prizes or no prizes! (Frankly, it was fun, and, while I have always prided myself on being one of those GS Thread guys who enjoys everyone else's stuff and the banter and the occasional mystery tool, hosting actually gave me more motivation to pay closer attention, and the prizes gave me a reason to really get a measure and pulse of the thread.) I look at the date and worry that I started the awards too soon, but we still have to vote for Picker of the Year, and then the 2019 Host.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another very small 'small haul' for me today...

I hardly ever pick up things I know absolutely nothing about, but the keyhole saw looked interesting to me, especially the shape of the handle. I was hoping it would have a cool medallion (which was illegible with stubborn, aged grime at the flea) and, after clean-up, it does. Perhaps LesserSon knows something about E.F. Decker. If not, it will give me some further reading to do.

The machinists' clamp (L.S. Starrett) is missing a knurled knob, but it still opens and closes and I don't have this size.

The utility knife (EDIT: G.C.C.O. 129) cleaned up really well, too, and although I have a feeling it is a fairly modern cheapie, I love the light weight and the logo.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here are some LEAVE-BEHINDS…

Pics 1 & 2: A Whatzit?

Pics 3 & 4: A Witherby (German) multi-box wrench. I have the Williams wartime production original of this tool. This is a knock-off. Same eight (8) sizes. Very similar construction. And forged, not the cheesy pot metal jobbies. I have to admit they put an interesting twist on it, though, by making the ends offset. (Hard to tell in the photos, but they are ~30* offsets.)That was a good idea.

 

[RagTopTA]

Went to an estate sale this AM, down the Cape, little further than I like to travel, but it ended up being worth it. Super clean little Prentiss vise, Bosch variable heat variable fan heat gun, Craftsman drill index and drills, razor scraper and tapered reamer, shop supplies, a tarp, etc.
The little miter gauge is a Delta, went to a grinder that was there, someone bought the grinder and left the miter behind, so I bought it.
The tools in the last pic are Snap On, other than the Bonney stud remover, the ParX 1/2" ratchet (pretty sure that's the first ParX tool I've ever seen), the 3" extension that's standing up which is a Craftsman, and the buffing compound, also Craftsman.

Congrats to the winners of Lugz coveted awards, and I am happy I was even able to get an honorable mention, lots of really cool stuff.

From one Ragtop to another, great haul right there! Im jealous as its snowing.. here.. in TEXAS on my weekend off and the monthly big flea market thats canceled.

 

[davethorik]

Small haul for today, but some good stuff

Craftsman EE USA 44426, 3/8 dr 10mm deep 6 pt
Proto Professional 5410MH, 1/2 dr 10mm shallow 6 pt new
Wright 3048 (qty 2), 3/8 dr 8mm shallow 6 pt nos
Wright 3050, 3/8 dr 10mm shallow 6 pt
Wright S-183, 1/2 dr 9/16 shallow 8 pt (1946)
Wright 3206, 3/8 dr 3/16 hex bit
Wright N, 1/2 dr 21/32 shallow 12 pt
Stanley USA 64-864 flat head screwdriver
Snap-on GOEX16B combo wrench 1/2, black oxide (1995)
Powr-Kraft 84H4760 1/4 dr spinner handle, female drive on handle end.

Edit, forgot this Hanson USA 5oz plumb bob w/ string
$15

 

[whyNick?]

Lugnutz, that knife looks like an Otter Mercator Black Cat but the markings don't sound quite right, maybe a knockoff?

 

[3baygarage]

Picked up a trampoline for free off of Letgo. I'll use it and another I got earlier this year to build a firewood rack.

This was a completely online transaction: only chat messages from within the Letgo app, no one home at the address. I ask if I could also have a bed rail frame in the backyard with a bunch of other random stuff. He replied "Take it. Take whatever you want. Take it all." I got a little spooked at that point and decided to leave with just the two above items. I took pictures and will keep the chat thread on my phone in case the cops come a knockin'....

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

That sounds sketchy as heck Bomber. I hope no one comes a knockin. Dig a pit and put in in the ground like the Kardashians have, that way do one will see it in your yard!

Lugz,
Heck of a job you've done this year!!! This is my first year to participate in the GS thread. I feel sorry for the guy who has to follow your footsteps as host of the 2019 GS thread. You really have set the standard for how a host can engage with participants, keep it fun and always informative! It's been really a lot of fun and you deserve most of the credit for that! THANK YOU!!!!

I would like to echo TX’s sentiments. Lugz, you’re an outstanding host. Between your research, finds, and downright excitement about things, it’s been another great thread.

Another interesting looking knife. I have one of those Witherby wrenches and they are a quality made tool. I think they came in a few different rebrandings with Witherby being the most common.

 

[IdahoMan]

Your 13/ and 15/32nds sockets are very likely from the 1920's or early 1930's. I have sockets in those sizes and they are from that time period. In the pressed steel era it was very common for socket sets to include service openings in /32nds. This provided sloppy but ample coverage for multiple fastener system standards (U.S.S., S.A.E., American, and Hex Cap) as well as 1/32nd overage due to imperfections in the manufacturing processes for both the fasteners and the sockets. This practice lasted into the early parts of the succeeding era, when sockets were either machined (not forged) or forged but cold-broached. Some /32nds sizes (namely, 19/, 21/, and 29/) lasted well into the 1940's, to accommodate U.S.S. fasteners (which had heads fully 1/32nd bigger than S.A.E. fasteners) until fasteners were standardized on S.A.E.

EDIT: Post photos.

Thanks for the reply Lugz. They are chromed, no-name and have "Taiwan" stamped on the side so I doubt they are older.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Lugnutz, that knife looks like an Otter Mercator Black Cat but the markings don't sound quite right, maybe a knockoff?

You nailed it! I was just on a few websites. It's a dead ringer for an Otter Mercator Black Cat Stainless. Or, as you suggest, some kind of licensed (or unlicensed) knock-off. Here is the mark on the tang.

Although it's missing the bail on the end, I really like this knife. It has great balance, it hasn't been over-sharpened or abused, and I can replace the bail with a generic one.

Thanks, as I have never heard of Otter Mercator.

Thanks for the reply Lugz. They are chromed, no-name and have "Taiwan" stamped on the side so I doubt they are older.

HAHA. Definitely not. That's bizarre. I have no clue, as I don't collect anything later than early 50's. Special application? Or maybe when tools started coming out of Asia they were modeled on older Imperial sized sets. 3bay may have a better theory.

 

[shanny19]

Thanks for the reply Lugz. They are chromed, no-name and have "Taiwan" stamped on the side so I doubt they are older.

I’ve run into several 80’s maybe 70’s Taiwan socket sets, particularly in 1/2” drive, that had a full array of 32nds sizes, long long after US manufacturers were including them in sets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, shanny. Weird, but kind of intriguing in a strange way.

 

[Bobcat753]

I haven't been around here much with work and other adventures but today I managed to go over to 125 Tools in Plaistow,NH for the first time. I was blown away at all the tools there. The store is sadly closing down after 25 years of operation but there is still a lot of vintage,new and in between tools. Lots of NOS tools from SK, Herbrand, etc. I managed to walk away with the following for $213.

1. SK SAE Allen Socket Set
2. Heyco W. Germany SAE combo wrenches. Complete 1/4" To 1-1/8"
3. Wiha Electronics Screw Drivers, Wiha ESD Screw Drivers, Almost complete Eklind Gold Finish Metric Hex Keys, and a Herbrand 4" Adjustable
4. Wera NOS Stubby Screw Drivers All 1/4" Flathead, Knipex Mini Bolt Cutters, and a Wiha No.2 Phillips.
5. VIM Tools Stubby SAE Hex Bit Sockets
6. NOS Herbrand Metric 9mm-19mm Angle Wrenches

 

[d42jeep]

A couple of sales close to home popped up on Craigslist this morning so we checked out two. The first one was a small garage sale but I found a 24” aluminum Ridgid pipe wrench, which I wasted no time grabbing. The older I get the more I appreciate the light weight of the aluminum Ridgids. The next sale was an estate sale that netted a few worthwhile tools. I was jazzed to find a 1945 SO Ferret sliding tee for my wartime Ferret set and the 1/4” Plomb socket will help to fill out a set.
-Don

 

[3baygarage]

Nice scores guys.

Bobcat, did they have any Herbrand ratchets? I have a late run Herbrand ratchet in 1/4 drive pear head that I have yet to see another. I suspect it was an import.

Lugz I have nothing on the knife, just think it looks cool. They blade markings look old.
Edit: run a google image search of G.C.C.O. 129. Brings up the same knife marked Japan.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A guy who ran a cabinet shop in St. Paul is retiring and had a sale this weekend to clear out his shop. Tons of fasteners (screws, nails, hardware, etc.) that I don't need) and a lot of power tools (a couple shapers and a Unisaw I drooled over, but don't have the space for them) but I found some smaller stuff to bring home.

Pic 1 has an air hose and some fittings I can use on the vintage Saylor Beall mini air compressor I picked up this last summer (https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7337251&postcount=5307), Diamond Calk snips, Gardner-Bender wire stripper, Stanley multi-bit screwdriver, two wire wheels (one thick, one thin, they're brass colored but are actually steel), General wood plane blade sharpening jig and a Smith's sharpening kit, and a couple nice Norton sharpening stones, one large and one small.

Pic 2 has cans of paint stripper, naptha, Watco Danish oil, Minwax spray polyurethane, ZRC cold galvanizing compound, and a Western Auto socket tool box.

Pic 3 and pic 4 are of the inside of the Western Auto box. No wrenches, just some old hacksaw blades, but I liked the box all by itself.

Pic 5 is a Disston #4 miter saw. It will go with the two smaller #4 backsaws I had already, shown in pic 6.

Pic 7 is a small Shopvac, which I've needed for a quite a while.

$20 for everything. Not a crazy deal, but I was happy with it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Edit: run a google image search of G.C.C.O. 129. Brings up the same knife marked Japan.

I've been doing some reading myself, and I saw that. Mine had traces of black paint on the scale, which I stripped. Seeing it made me re-check mine, and sure enough, the 'JAPAN' was buried in the recess.

Also tracked it to a thread on All About Pocket Knives. I don't know why my knife has a period after the 'C' (as in 'G.C.C.O.'), but according to the guys on AAPK, it stands for Gutmann Cutlery Co., Mt. Vernon, NY. They were in business for fifty years, from 1947-1997, importing knives and swords from Germany, Italy, and Japan. I suspect the 'G.C.C.O.' stands for Gutmann Cutlery Company Outfitters, or something like that. Or it was just a mistake.

But what is the Otter Mercator Black Cat connection?

That third piece of the puzzle came from Heinne-Haynes, an outfitter in the UK, which provides this tidy little history lesson in its Otter knives section:

"The Otter Mercator Black Cat is by far the most popular knife from Otter. The history of this model goes back to 1867 when the India Works of Heinrich Kaufmann & Sons developed and manufactured the Mercator knife and registered it as D.R.G.M. (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster). Only the India Works were allowed to use the Mercator brand.

Otter has owned the trademarks since 1995. During World War I, the knife was known far beyond the borders of Germany, when it was issued to the soldiers of the German Army under Emperor Wilhelm II. The end of the Second World War brought about a breakthrough, with the knife becoming a cult object abroad. For American GIs returning home from Germany, the Mercator knife was one of the most popular souvenirs.

Even today, the famous cat with the characters K55K - from Kaufmann's address at 55 High Street, Katze (cat) - is applied by hand in genuine gold paint. The metal box construction of the handle (powder-coated steel) means the knife is stable, flat, light and handy. The finely ground carbon blade is made from the finest Solingen steel and locked securely with the back lock. A metal eyelet on the handle end enables the attachment of your favourite lanyard."

I am guessing that Gutmann was importing the original Heinrich Kaufmann & Sons version and also a version (the No. 129) that Kaufmann was making in Japan, similar to the way they had a shop in India.

It's hard to say how old it is, but I am guessing early. I like the bit about American GI's loving the knife and returning from WWII with them as souvenirs. And they really captured what I was trying to describe about it upthread with this bit: "the knife is stable, flat, light and handy." I could not have said it better!

 

[3baygarage]

The last couple pawn shop hauls combined.

Wight 1-1/4” impact
Craftsman fractional and metric quick wrenches
Husky Pro screwdrivers (WF)
Craftsman older magnetic bit driver
Mac wrenches x 2
Shrade old timer (busted blade)
Matco Witte screwdriver
Wood Chisel, maybe a Stanley or Marples
S-K wrenches x 3
Proto
Gearwrench x 2
Husky
Wizard
Facom
Made in Canada unbranded short dbe
Williams x 2 . The doe is a SPECIAL, 3/8 x 1/4. It added a small bit of surprise and excitement to my day to find that in the bottom of the same wrench bin that I’ve dug through many times.

 

[3baygarage]

Pics.

The unbranded Canada, a d the Williams Special.


Stuart- nice find on the Chrome X box.

 

[Bobcat753]

Nice scores guys.

Bobcat, did they have any Herbrand ratchets? I have a late run Herbrand ratchet in 1/4 drive pear head that I have yet to see another. I suspect it was an import.

Lugz I have nothing on the knife, just think it looks cool. They blade markings look old.
Edit: run a google image search of G.C.C.O. 129. Brings up the same knife marked Japan.

I think I did see some Herbrand ratchets and a couple socket sets with ratchets. I believe these wrenches are imports but not entirely sure. I will check when I go back next weekend.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Nice haul, 3bay.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The countdown begins…

2018 "Picker of the Year" Trophy Reveal in... [23]:[59]!

 

[Catfishdan]

Congratulations to all our winners so far and to Lugz for hosting an awesome thread this year. It's always more fun with prizes!

I've struck out the last few weekends, so I ponied up 5 bucks for a bucket-o-wrenches today just to buy something. About half was junk, the other half was in bad shape, but fun none the less. Some Thorsen, Craftsman, Mac, SK, Lectrolite, Bonney, barcalo, etc...





Here's the most interesting stuff... Giant artisan slip joints, mac saltus wrench, #3 Phillips, and odd 10mm, walden spin-tite, and a few bonneys.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

...

Another very small 'small haul' for me today...


I hardly ever pick up things I know absolutely nothing about, but the keyhole saw looked interesting to me, especially the shape of the handle. I was hoping it would have a cool medallion (which was illegible with stubborn, aged grime at the flea) and, after clean-up, it does. Perhaps LesserSon knows something about E.F. Decker. If not, it will give me some further reading to do.

...

Lugz,
Love the look of that keyhole saw and even though I can't "feel" it I just know it has to feel great in your hand like all those wonderful old tools. Very nice find!

 

[LesserSon]

Perhaps LesserSon knows something about E.F. Decker. If not, it will give me some further reading to do.

‘Fraid not, Lugz. The patent is Charles Glover’s - an improvement, or rather the perfection, of the 1876 Henry Disston design. Most saw manufactuers eventually adopted it.
I did a quick search. Ernest F Decker made saws at 65 Westerlo Street, Albany NY. He was born in Germany in April 1854, married 1883 to Mary, immigrated 1890, 4 children & living at 79 Madison Ave in 1900.
I’m beat from trudging in (Gifford) Pinchot State Forest all day. Deer:4, LesserSon:0. A little 4pt ran across the road right in front of me as I was leaving the parking lot.

BTW, your prize-awarding has been top-drawer, as has been your hosting all year!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Love the look of that keyhole saw and even though I can't "feel" it I just know it has to feel great in your hand like all those wonderful old tools. Very nice find!

Thanks. I literally could not put it down, even when I got home!

A little 4pt ran across the road right in front of me as I was leaving the parking lot.

Danged Y buck was taunting you!

Thanks for the patent lookup. I hadn't gotten to it yet! Much appreciated.

 

[h~moto]

Been awhile but finally had a good day at the garage sale. Picked up two drill bit sets. The A-Z set has been on my shopping list for awhile. Appears to never have been used. The surface rust is not as bad as it appears in the photo. Also some NOS Brown & Sharpe drill bits - various sizes from 9/16 to 1 inch. Never heard of Duol before. Add it to my collection penetrating fluids.

 

[whyNick?]

I've been doing some reading myself, and I saw that. Mine had traces of black paint on the scale, which I stripped. Seeing it made me re-check mine, and sure enough, the 'JAPAN' was buried in the recess.

Also tracked it to a thread on All About Pocket Knives. I don't know why my knife has a period after the 'C' (as in 'G.C.C.O.'), but according to the guys on AAPK, it stands for Gutmann Cutlery Co., Mt. Vernon, NY. They were in business for fifty years, from 1947-1997, importing knives and swords from Germany, Italy, and Japan. I suspect the 'G.C.C.O.' stands for Gutmann Cutlery Company Outfitters, or something like that. Or it was just a mistake.

But what is the Otter Mercator Black Cat connection?

That third piece of the puzzle came from Heinne-Haynes, an outfitter in the UK, which provides this tidy little history lesson in its Otter knives section:

"The Otter Mercator Black Cat is by far the most popular knife from Otter. The history of this model goes back to 1867 when the India Works of Heinrich Kaufmann & Sons developed and manufactured the Mercator knife and registered it as D.R.G.M. (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchs Muster). Only the India Works were allowed to use the Mercator brand.

Otter has owned the trademarks since 1995. During World War I, the knife was known far beyond the borders of Germany, when it was issued to the soldiers of the German Army under Emperor Wilhelm II. The end of the Second World War brought about a breakthrough, with the knife becoming a cult object abroad. For American GIs returning home from Germany, the Mercator knife was one of the most popular souvenirs.

Even today, the famous cat with the characters K55K - from Kaufmann's address at 55 High Street, Katze (cat) - is applied by hand in genuine gold paint. The metal box construction of the handle (powder-coated steel) means the knife is stable, flat, light and handy. The finely ground carbon blade is made from the finest Solingen steel and locked securely with the back lock. A metal eyelet on the handle end enables the attachment of your favourite lanyard."

I am guessing that Gutmann was importing the original Heinrich Kaufmann & Sons version and also a version (the No. 129) that Kaufmann was making in Japan, similar to the way they had a shop in India.

It's hard to say how old it is, but I am guessing early. I like the bit about American GI's loving the knife and returning from WWII with them as souvenirs. And they really captured what I was trying to describe about it upthread with this bit: "the knife is stable, flat, light and handy." I could not have said it better!

Interesting research, I knew some of this info but not most of it. The Mercator is a classic knife; sturdy, light, and it holds a keen edge.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I hardly ever pick up things I know absolutely nothing about, but the keyhole saw looked interesting to me, especially the shape of the handle. I was hoping it would have a cool medallion (which was illegible with stubborn, aged grime at the flea) and, after clean-up, it does. Perhaps LesserSon knows something about E.F. Decker. If not, it will give me some further reading to do.

I found a reference to E.F. Decker in a 1905 edition of Hardware Dealer's Magazine: https://books.google.com/books?id=_...HoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=e.f. decker saw&f=false

E.F. Decker, Albany N.Y., proprietor of the Albany Saw & Steel Works, in his catalogue presents a variety of Saws for various purposes. They include Circular, Mill, Dray, Gang, Crosscut and Ice Saws, Hand Saws and Planing Knives, etc. Saws of every description are made to order and repaired.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

my collection penetrating fluids.

I see that you found your avatar inspiration, too!

The Mercator is a classic knife; sturdy, light, and it holds a keen edge.

Well said.

I found a reference to E.F. Decker in a 1905 edition of Hardware Dealer's Magazine

Bookmarked! Thanks, Stuart!

 

[bmwrd0]

Hit a couple sales today, with pretty good results:

A few vintage radio repair manuals, a nice kreel,


Challenger socket spinner set - complete with crossbar, but no breaker bar - Klein needle nose, channel locks, a handful of ignition wrenches and a Starrett hacksaw. I also got a mostly full thing of white gas, but that is still in the back of the truck. All told $24.

 

[garthg]

Here is a closer view of the logo.
-Don

The Keystone name still shows on the building:

 

[garthg]

Small haul for today, but some good stuff

Craftsman EE USA 44426, 3/8 dr 10mm deep 6 pt
Proto Professional 5410MH, 1/2 dr 10mm shallow 6 pt new
Wright 3048 (qty 2), 3/8 dr 8mm shallow 6 pt nos
Wright 3050, 3/8 dr 10mm shallow 6 pt
Wright S-183, 1/2 dr 9/16 shallow 8 pt (1946)
Wright 3206, 3/8 dr 3/16 hex bit
Wright N, 1/2 dr 21/32 shallow 12 pt
Stanley USA 64-864 flat head screwdriver
Snap-on GOEX16B combo wrench 1/2, black oxide (1995)
Powr-Kraft 84H4760 1/4 dr spinner handle, female drive on handle end.

Edit, forgot this Hanson USA 5oz plumb bob w/ string
$15

Wow, three 10mm's in one haul.
There's three guys wandering around looking for those.

 

[IdahoMan]

What's the story of Dayton-APEX sockets? I have a few and the writing on them is terrible. It's like they forgot to finish it. On one socket the size is "5/1". lol.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Furthermore, Lugz, there is a sample of the sockets from a small car kit on AA. I think they look similar to the Bethlehem Spark Plug Co sockets.

Kinda sorta. Machined and heavy walled. But not really the same shape and not copper-plated. That is a cool kit, though. Very compact for a half 1/2-inch drive set. Ingenious, with the L-handle, which doubles as a drive plug, tucked in under the ratchet in the holder! I forgot I had a Wescott S-adjustable and I never noticed it was Keystone!

 

[3baygarage]

Took some night shots there a couple years ago.

 

[drivesitfar]

ALL: while i was searching for some new (old spares that never hit the road) 6 lug 16 inch (old 20 year old trailer tires were 15 and rims didn't match so i'm testing to see how 16's work) i found something my bride likes.

any of you get some old benches and furniture while shopping for tools that catches your eye?

well this one caught mine and after i sent a pic to my bride she told me she liked it so it has followed me home. also I made it part of the 5 hour picking trip to get my tires.

the firestone tire actually looks new even though it's 6 or 8 years old (haven't checked the date yet) and the rims match too which was a bit lucky.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Took some night shots there a couple years ago.

Hmmmm. Was that before or after you scaled the wall and went through the detritus with a metal detector?!