Quality and FAIR priced Pole building

[hitchmss]

Hello All, my name is Sam Hitchman and Im from Cincinnati OH. Apologies in advance if this is posted in the incorrect section of the forum.
I am trying to find a contractor who can add onto and renovate a 1970's tobacco barn in Clermont County OH (East of Cincinnati). Ive found a few local contractors who have given me estimates which I have found to be absurdly high. Let me give you a quick rundown of the build.
Current building is a 32 x 72 x 14' pole barn, no concrete, Electric is already run.
Would be adding a 15' x 72' x 14' addition to this building, and new trusses (4/12)/roofing metal. Total footprint would be 47'x 72' x 14'
Concrete throughout (90% of the floor is 4", a few sections are 6" reinforced), a few interior walls, about a dozen windows, 3 rollup doors no bigger than 8x8', 3 sets of double doors 72-80" width. Insulated rigid foam in between columns and in the wall sections. A metal ceiling with blown in insulation on top. A bathroom, and small kitchen are the biggest sources of water supply/waste; there are 2 other sinks in the shop.
There will be a little site work, and the contractor will have to run some french drains, and a septic & water line from the existing runs. There are a bunch of other small details, but this is the "big" stuff.
One contractor got back with me with his estimate; excluding HVAC and Electrical he estimated $140k. Another came back with a ballpark of $130-160 to build ALL new. Waiting on another to give me a quote.
My concern; we have $160k for the entire project, which includes purchasing the property (which will be about $50k). I was expecting on spending around $100k max for the reno/new work that we'd do to this existing barn, but quotes thus far are far exceeding what I was expecting.
Ive come across numerous threads on this forum where folks talk about similar sized buildings, with similar features, built for a HECK of a lot less and Im wondering if costs have just gone up since those threads, or am I getting hosed?
I will be using this building for my ceramic arts business, and I currently use a 1000 sq ft barn, which cost the gentleman who owns it, about $30k about 15 years ago to build. I figured if I had to build brand new, to do 3k feet it would be about 3 times the cost, or $100k. Figured with having 80% of the job's total sf already standing that we should cut that budget down by 30-50k?
Am I crazy? Can anyone recommend a contractor who would be in my neck of the woods, provide quality work, at a fair price?
Thanks in Advance for all of your help!

 

[cvairwerks]

Something to remember is that renovation/rehab work will almost always be more expensive than new build. R/R work means the contractor has to guess about some things until he actually tears into the work, and then must adjust on the fly to account for it. New build still has some risks, but they are reduced but not having to minimize any destruction of what’s already there, as well as not having to continually alter things to make it work correctly, safely and if required, to current code.

 

[matt_i]

when you say new roof trusses that means demo out the entire roof structure to more or less an open topped box and rebuild?

If so that's a huge proposition for failure, you talk of (existing?) bathrooms and kitchen and so you have to consider that its going to get wet somehow during the build, which would of course make you unhappy, so they have to figure out a way to build a little and tarp it in stages most likely. Dust and dirt will be impossible to stop from entering the structure. If I read incorrectly and the scope of work is to install the kitchen and bathroom you are probably getting priced as basically a house build. HVAC is mentioned but is that part of the bid package? Sorry for being confused.

As mentioned any time you cut into an existing structure its a very detailed and time consuming process to make it all come out right at the end.

My guess is most residential contractors are racing to get ahead of rising interest rates and so are probably full of work, and adding a slow process to that is going to be one they would bid high.

 

[jetlag]

when you say new roof trusses that means demo out the entire roof structure to more or less an open topped box and rebuild?

If so that's a huge proposition for failure.

That's the way I read it, too. No existing slab, just saving the exterior walls and a little bit of electrical. He wants to tie into existing water and sewer on site, but there does not seem to be any existing plumbing in the barn. It costs more to remodel, or to demolish an existing building than to start from a clean slate.

My advice would be to find a property more suited to the intended use, or budget accordingly for a new building. Converting an unfinished pole barn into a finished commercial bldg will be an expensive endeavor.

 

[stm317]

Your market is your market. Your job is your job.
Don't worry about what others have paid for their jobs in different places and different times because that doesn't apply to you. Get multiple quotes for the work you want done, and go from there.

 

[hitchmss]

Something to remember is that renovation/rehab work will almost always be more expensive than new build. R/R work means the contractor has to guess about some things until he actually tears into the work, and then must adjust on the fly to account for it. New build still has some risks, but they are reduced but not having to minimize any destruction of what’s already there, as well as not having to continually alter things to make it work correctly, safely and if required, to current code.

Yes, I am aware that R/R is more expensive than new construction, however I didnt think that the R/R to remove/add a new roof, and a bump out would be more than an entire brand new shell.
I am having an engineer come in to tell me what must be brought up to code, and provide my contractors a detailed plan of what must be done to get it there. I havent yet gotten engineer on site, but from what one engineer friend thought based on what I told him of the barn is that we shouldnt incur anything major. He thought that we'd likely have to add in mending/joining plates, rafter tie downs, and other structural hardware. To me this meant maybe $1k in materials to bring the structure to code. Only major concern is the footings for the columns which the engineer on site will investigate to determine. If we have to remove columns to install proper footings, then I can definitely see where it would be more expensive than starting new.

 

[hitchmss]

when you say new roof trusses that means demo out the entire roof structure to more or less an open topped box and rebuild?

If so that's a huge proposition for failure, you talk of (existing?) bathrooms and kitchen and so you have to consider that its going to get wet somehow during the build, which would of course make you unhappy, so they have to figure out a way to build a little and tarp it in stages most likely. Dust and dirt will be impossible to stop from entering the structure. If I read incorrectly and the scope of work is to install the kitchen and bathroom you are probably getting priced as basically a house build. HVAC is mentioned but is that part of the bid package? Sorry for being confused.

As mentioned any time you cut into an existing structure its a very detailed and time consuming process to make it all come out right at the end.

My guess is most residential contractors are racing to get ahead of rising interest rates and so are probably full of work, and adding a slow process to that is going to be one they would bid high.

Yes, I am thinking that removing the entire roof structure to keep the current building, and the addition/bump out under the same roof is most cost effective We could also sandwich the current rafters with trusses, and split the 8' OC rafters with another new truss which would give us 4' OC. Doing the latter option means that our roof would be an irregular shape (keep the ridge in its current location, and extend the "new" section of roof over the new addition.
Currently there is nothing on the interior of this barn that would be kept; only the shell. The bathroom/kitchen would be added in later. So if we had the roof off, it wouldnt make any difference if it rains/snows.
HVAC would be part of this build, however the one contractor who quoted me $140k to do the build did not include HVAC or Elect in his quote. Id likely have another $20k in HVAC/Elect.

 

[hitchmss]

My advice would be to find a property more suited to the intended use, or budget accordingly for a new building. Converting an unfinished pole barn into a finished commercial bldg will be an expensive endeavor.

We definitely cant build this as a commercial build; the fire detection and sprinkler system alone would sink us. County is "ok" with us building it as single family residential, and that is the code we must meet. I will build as much as financially possible to commercial code, but there are a lot of design features in commercial which I absolutely cant do. Ballpark estimate from one contractor is that I'd be looking at minimum $200k difference to go commercial compared to residential.
I looked into getting a piece of bare property and doing a brand new build. Quotes for my building came in all over the place; Morton wanted $140k just to do the shell, nothing else. One guy came in at $50k for the shell. I assume that both of those figures aren't "what I want"; the cheap guy would likely just slap together something that I wouldnt be very happy with, the Morton would likely do a great job, but totally blow my budget.
Biggest issue with going with new construction on a piece of bare dirt is the septic/utilities costs. Here in Clermont county they have basically done away with a traditional leach field style septic (unless you happen to own the perfectly drained piece of property which is maybe 5% of the county), and instead require mound systems. Estimates on the mound for my needs would be $30-40k, which if my building truly does cost $130-160k w/o septic, would blow budget and we'd still have to buy the property which is going to be a min of $15-20k. Water taps are also $5k.
What Ive been trying to do is find existing utilities which I can grandfather over (county allows), and save myself $30-50k by doing so. Thus far Ive looked at one property which has a burnt down home (ex girlfriend was REALLY mad....no joke), and the other is this property with the ol tobaccy barn. Has a turn of century schoolhouse and older mobile home on site which utilities have been used for.

 

[pelletman]

You're basing what you think it should cost on what someone else paid FIFTEEN years ago and multiplying it x 3 to account for 3000 vs 1000 sq ft???

 

[hitchmss]

An update; I spent all of yesterday trying to get more quotes from any contractor whom I havent come across yet. Out of the couple of dozen that I inquired with, two thus far have at least been interested enough to take a look and give me a quote. Hopefully they will help narrow down what I consider to be a fair price for the job. I'm not looking to shortcut and build the cheapest thing I can find, but its been difficult discerning what is an actually fair cost for this job.
For example;
Morton quoted me $140k for a new shell only; anticipate (based on estimates provided thus far) another $80k for concrete and finishing.
One barn building quoted me $150/foot......$470k!!! This was to do everything new, but come on, that has to be the nicest 3,000 foot, non residence, barn in the country.
Had another barn guy quote me $50k for just a new shell.
A custom home builder quoted me $130-160k for an entire new build.
Another barn guy quoted me $140k to reno this current barn, but his price didnt include HVAC or Elect (likely $20k total).
So, Ive gotten quotes all the way from $50k to $450k; obviously the high end one maybe was just trying to price himself out of the job, or he honestly thought that was fair, who knows, Ill never find out. However, it seems that $150k'ish is kind of where a lot of these guys are coming in at, and it seems terribly high. A local Menards will sell a DIY kit for $30k for all my materials, including delivery, for the same footprint. I priced out some other DIY suppliers and their kits are in similar, or even a little less, price range as Menards.
I was admittedly shocked at the cost of the concrete; my father just had a new home in WV not Ohio, built and an Amish Contractor quoted him $5/foot for exposed aggregate, 6", reinforced sidewalks and patios. I was kind of expecting concrete to run me around $15k, but estimates are at least double that.
I plan to use salvaged/factory seconds rigid foam, sprayed in place, for all my wall cavities, which should save us as much as $10k. Ive tried finding other salvaged building materials (doors, windows, etc) without much luck.
The local Restores do have plenty of kitchen and bath fixtures which will save a lot (Kitchen and bath are very basic anyways; no counters or cabinetry in kitchen, just stainless work tables which I already own; bath/shower is just gonna be the cheapest insert we can find.....)
Ive got a window company which did some doors in our residence, and they have IMO good prices on great products. 4'x6' sliders, triple pane, insulated, vinyl windows are $300/piece. I can scale the windows back to single pane, un-insulated and knock off $150/ per window, however for the 10-12 windows we are putting in, the $1500'ish upcharge seems worth it to me.
Doors I am having trouble finding decent prices on the exterior double doors; I always assumed that the basic metal doors you'd see on every school/government building were relatively cheap....I was wrong. Had a local door/window company quote me $25k for 3 sets of double doors, and 3 insulated roll up doors.
Now I know I can go to a local surplus store and buy residential grade double doors for a hell of a lot less, and there are plenty of roll up door suppliers who have given me quotes in the $1-2k range per insulated door.
I know the contractor wants to make some profit here too, but I look at numbers, which are based in reality, and cant make them add up properly. Based on my calcs I should have $80k ish to reno this barn, but I guess only more estimates, and time will tell.

 

[hitchmss]

You're basing what you think it should cost on what someone else paid FIFTEEN years ago and multiplying it x 3 to account for 3000 vs 1000 sq ft???

I figured this was a fair starting point to give me a rough idea of the costs. Now, I know costs have gone up since then on both labor and materials. But if 1,000 sq/ft cost $30k fifteen years ago, I kind of expected 3,000 ft to be in the $100-120k range for all new construction. I mean, what we are building here isnt exactly a brand new, high performance, super efficient, deluxe home, so I kind of figured that it wouldnt trend what current new homes cost. We've been looking into doing a new home, and for $250-300k we could build a stick built home with similar sq footage, nice finishes, and not top of the line efficiency/performance but pretty damn nice. For an basic insulated box with unfinished concrete floors, metal ceilings, fluoro/LED surface mounted lights, and drywall walls, I kind of figured we'd be a LOT less than a new home, not just "a little less".

 

[gemniii]

<snip>
Current building is a 32 x 72 x 14' pole barn, no concrete, Electric is already run.
Would be adding a 15' x 72' x 14' addition to this building, and new trusses (4/12)/roofing metal. Total footprint would be 47'x 72' x 14'
Concrete throughout (90% of the floor is 4", a few sections are 6" reinforced), a few interior walls, about a dozen windows, 3 rollup doors no bigger than 8x8', 3 sets of double doors 72-80" width. Insulated rigid foam in between columns and in the wall sections. A metal ceiling with blown in insulation on top. A bathroom, and small kitchen are the biggest sources of water supply/waste; there are 2 other sinks in the shop.
There will be a little site work, and the contractor will have to run some french drains, and a septic & water line from the existing runs. There are a bunch of other small details, but this is the "big" stuff.
One contractor got back with me with his estimate; excluding HVAC and Electrical he estimated $140k. Another came back with a ballpark of $130-160 to build ALL new. Waiting on another to give me a quote.
My concern; we have $160k for the entire project, which includes purchasing the property (which will be about $50k). snip>

Am I crazy? Can anyone recommend a contractor who would be in my neck of the woods, provide quality work, at a fair price?
<snip>

Yes, you may be crazy.
You may need to review your concept of a "fair price"

You're basing what you think it should cost on what someone else paid FIFTEEN years ago and multiplying it x 3 to account for 3000 vs 1000 sq ft???

Minimum wage for Ohio went from about $5/hr to $8.55. I'm sure moderately skilled trade prices also went up over 50%.

An update; I spent all of yesterday trying to get more quotes from any contractor whom I havent come across yet. Out of the couple of dozen that I inquired with, two thus far have at least been interested enough to take a look and give me a quote. Hopefully they will help narrow down what I consider to be a fair price for the job. I'm not looking to shortcut and build the cheapest thing I can find, but its been difficult discerning what is an actually fair cost for this job.
For example;
Morton quoted me $140k for a new shell only; anticipate (based on estimates provided thus far) another $80k for concrete and finishing.
One barn building quoted me $150/foot......$470k!!! This was to do everything new, but come on, that has to be the nicest 3,000 foot, non residence, barn in the country.
Had another barn guy quote me $50k for just a new shell.
A custom home builder quoted me $130-160k for an entire new build.
Another barn guy quoted me $140k to reno this current barn, but his price didnt include HVAC or Elect (likely $20k total).
So, Ive gotten quotes all the way from $50k to $450k; obviously the high end one maybe was just trying to price himself out of the job, or he honestly thought that was fair, who knows, Ill never find out. However, it seems that $150k'ish is kind of where a lot of these guys are coming in at, and it seems terribly high. A local Menards will sell a DIY kit for $30k for all my materials, including delivery, for the same footprint. I priced out some other DIY suppliers and their kits are in similar, or even a little less, price range as Menards.
I was admittedly shocked at the cost of the concrete; my father just had a new home in WV not Ohio, built and an Amish Contractor quoted him $5/foot for exposed aggregate, 6", reinforced sidewalks and patios. I was kind of expecting concrete to run me around $15k, but estimates are at least double that.
I plan to use salvaged/factory seconds rigid foam, sprayed in place, for all my wall cavities, which should save us as much as $10k. Ive tried finding other salvaged building materials (doors, windows, etc) without much luck.
The local Restores do have plenty of kitchen and bath fixtures which will save a lot (Kitchen and bath are very basic anyways; no counters or cabinetry in kitchen, just stainless work tables which I already own; bath/shower is just gonna be the cheapest insert we can find.....)
Ive got a window company which did some doors in our residence, and they have IMO good prices on great products. 4'x6' sliders, triple pane, insulated, vinyl windows are $300/piece. I can scale the windows back to single pane, un-insulated and knock off $150/ per window, however for the 10-12 windows we are putting in, the $1500'ish upcharge seems worth it to me.
Doors I am having trouble finding decent prices on the exterior double doors; I always assumed that the basic metal doors you'd see on every school/government building were relatively cheap....I was wrong. Had a local door/window company quote me $25k for 3 sets of double doors, and 3 insulated roll up doors.
Now I know I can go to a local surplus store and buy residential grade double doors for a hell of a lot less, and there are plenty of roll up door suppliers who have given me quotes in the $1-2k range per insulated door.
I know the contractor wants to make some profit here too, but I look at numbers, which are based in reality, and cant make them add up properly. Based on my calcs I should have $80k ish to reno this barn, but I guess only more estimates, and time will tell.

How are you going to supply all these materials?
Are you going to go around to ALL the suppliers and pick the materials out?
I've had several additions done, when I supplied the materials I didn't pay the contractor to go shopping. But it took a lot of time.
Did the Menards quote include the concrete?

It seems you have found a lot of low prices for things and expect a contractor to do the same.

But with $30K for concrete, $3.5K for windows and ???? ($20K?) for a new roof it seems you've spent most of $80K already.

As others have written it is often less expensive to level it and rebuild than to do a significant addition. However, for me at least in one case, tying into an old building allowed me to "upgrade" a structure that was "grandfathered" in the zoning.
But don't worry, prices are sure to go up.

 

[RPH]

Look at diypolebarns.com. Their based in Ohio and have a great barn estimator on there web site. It’s a good way to get an idea of costs and what changes cost what. They do have builders that can erect them. But for basic research it’s great.

 

[stm317]

Just for your reference, I'm in central Indiana about 1.5 hours NW of you. I built a 1500sqft barn with 10ft walls 2 years ago similar to this kit from Menards:

So, not a "bare bones" barn (overhangs on all sides, gutters, a porch, etc), but still just the shell + floor. The final tally was over twice what the materials cost from Menards by the time basic site work, cement, and labor were included. Or it could be calculated around $24/sqft. And that's just a shell with no insulation, electrical, septic, interior walls, etc that you're talking about. Or any tear down/preservation of an existing structure that would require more time and care from the contractor as well as additional disposal costs.

Material prices have gone up since I built, so if we assume $25/sqft for your planned building that's $85k. Plus septic. Plus taller walls than me. Plus insulation, interior walls, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, partial demo of the existing structure, extra time for dealing around the existing structure, kitchen appliances, several windows, patio doors, etc. That's how you end up with $150k bids on average.

 

[Homerr]

Better to get some bids and then set your expectations, not the other way around.

All your pricing seems dirt cheap to us here in the Seattle market. Our local prices on remodel work here have gone up 2x-3x in the last 5 years.

 

[gemniii]

Just for your reference, I'm in central Indiana about 1.5 hours NW of you. I built a 1500sqft barn with 10ft walls 2 years ago similar to this kit from Menards:

So, not a "bare bones" barn (overhangs on all sides, gutters, a porch, etc), but still just the shell + floor. The final tally was over twice what the materials cost from Menards by the time basic site work, cement, and labor were included. Or it could be calculated around $24/sqft. And that's just a shell with no insulation, electrical, septic, interior walls, etc that you're talking about. Or any tear down/preservation of an existing structure that would require more time and care from the contractor as well as additional disposal costs.

Material prices have gone up since I built, so if we assume $25/sqft for your planned building that's $85k. Plus septic. Plus taller walls than me. Plus insulation, interior walls, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, partial demo of the existing structure, extra time for dealing around the existing structure, kitchen appliances, several windows, patio doors, etc. That's how you end up with $150k bids on average.

How much "hired" labor was involved for that $24sq ft?
It seems common to
1. Do it all yourself with no "paid" labor
or
2. To hire out the concrete work and do everything else w/o paid labor
or
3. All other possibilities.

 

[493 scamp]

I second the diypolebarn.com sight. I purchased and had them provide the builder and was very satisfied. You might consider giving them a call to see if they can quote the job. I had my 32 x 40 x 12 put up with door and window openings only to save money and installed them myself as funds allowed. It took a 3 man crew about 2.5 days to put it up.

 

[stm317]

How much "hired" labor was involved for that $24sq ft?
It seems common to
1. Do it all yourself with no "paid" labor
or
2. To hire out the concrete work and do everything else w/o paid labor
or
3. All other possibilities.

I guess I should've said "I paid to have a building built" rather than "I built" at the beginning of that post. I did zero labor on the shell itself. GC did the drawings, planning/permits/etc and site work. Amish crew did the building. Concrete guys did the pad. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[gemniii]

Thanks, makes a big difference.

 

[firebirdparts]

FWIW, your plan obliterates the original building, and the price seems reasonable to me considering that people are busy. If you are concerned about the money, you could add on to the end and save the original structure, or not add on at all. You could wait until there's a building bust to add on.

 

[Orionrising]

The materials value of the old walls is tiny compared to your planned building. Watch some of r&r buildings YouTube to learn how modern pole barns go up.
Is the existing roof and walls sound? Can you make the building longer instead of wider?




Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[nmk_61802]

I guess I should've said "I paid to have a building built" rather than "I built" at the beginning of that post. I did zero labor on the shell itself. GC did the drawings, planning/permits/etc and site work. Amish crew did the building. Concrete guys did the pad. Sorry for any confusion.

Also FYI, materials have doubled in price in 2yrs. Built the same way now would be $40-$45 per sq/ft.