Partsguy57
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True.... and the best way to lower a price is for everyone to not buy forcing the company to lower price if they want to sell... capitalism again
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Another matco tool made in taiwan
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True.... and the best way to lower a price is for everyone to not buy forcing the company to lower price if they want to sell... capitalism again
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Partsguy57
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True... but competion when put in play always lowers the price to what margins the company has to make to stay in business... if the "premium " companys continue to market import tools at "premium " prices customers will go other places to buy the same at a lower price....
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I thought the whole point of the "tool truck" was to have Service to go along with the sale.
How long does the Matco tool truck driver stay in business price-matching Harbor Freight?
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Yeah, there is value added with the tool truck model
Partsguy57
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That depends on the customer only. They will decide what that service to worth to them.. trust me I know.... owned a auto parts store and full machine shop and service was our number on thing... but the customer always decides ultimately what the cost will be.
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The Fall
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I don't think a mechanic in need of a specialty tool to finish a job is going to get hung up on COO. They're going to need to get the job done. Market forces regarding COO are going to be a moot point.
Case in point: The press in the Mac double flaring kit stripped out on my friend last week while running new lines for a disc-brake conversion. (Cheap Mac import kit he got off the truck.) I brought over a BluePoint one from the 1980s made in USA. It was noticeably better and now lives at the shop -- but all that mattered was getting the job done.
The market isn't as responsive as people make it out to be. There are only a few suppliers/manufacturers and it often feels like a race to the bottom to improve profits ($100-something for an imported, dodgy double flaring kit? Hell, if Mac's doing it...) Someone told me not to fly a particular airline due to bad service. Well, since deregulation there aren't many left. Bad service is the norm and market forces don't matter in an oligarchy. These aren't the entrepreneurs of Adam Smith's time.
With improvements in communication technologies and industrialization of the former Second World, expect more and more to come. Defend if if you want. Hopefully, you're not in a precarious industry that can be easily outsourced.
Case in point: The press in the Mac double flaring kit stripped out on my friend last week while running new lines for a disc-brake conversion. (Cheap Mac import kit he got off the truck.) I brought over a BluePoint one from the 1980s made in USA. It was noticeably better and now lives at the shop -- but all that mattered was getting the job done.
The market isn't as responsive as people make it out to be. There are only a few suppliers/manufacturers and it often feels like a race to the bottom to improve profits ($100-something for an imported, dodgy double flaring kit? Hell, if Mac's doing it...) Someone told me not to fly a particular airline due to bad service. Well, since deregulation there aren't many left. Bad service is the norm and market forces don't matter in an oligarchy. These aren't the entrepreneurs of Adam Smith's time.
With improvements in communication technologies and industrialization of the former Second World, expect more and more to come. Defend if if you want. Hopefully, you're not in a precarious industry that can be easily outsourced.
3baygarage
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I think it’s the fact that some items get rebranded 6 different times over and are often found for a lesser price (by GJers anyway). Some may see it as fooling people to get them to pay premium truck prices for the same darn thing, while others recognize it as paying for the service of the dealer and no frills warranty.
Partsguy57
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Didn't say they were unworthy.. the market will decide the value based on many factors including ones dislike of imports as some are posting here...I'll freely admit I hate seeing anything in my box with China etc... but as the consumer I am free to have that bias and if there is enough of me the sellers or market will respond accordingly....the rise of cheap auto parts for example ( owed a parts store and full machine shop for many years) is driven by the consumer not the manufacturer ( same in all business) many will blame the manufacturer for seeking higher profits... wrong... simply competition and being forced to compete for what the consumer is willing to pay... there is far more money in selling premium. I know as I lived it for years. Think of it this way how many sparkies does GM need to sell vs one gmc Silverado to make the same profit? ( chevy spark car)
Post 47 manufactures only respond
To the market.. period.... where do you think the sales and money comes from? Cheers
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Toolhorder
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My matco guy was showing me some wrench set yesterday that had a weird offset and the open end had some copy of Snap on's flank drive. It was well over $300 I asked if it was US made and he put it back in his tote and started showing me something else. He knows I don't buy anything Matco unless it's US made.
Toolhorder
Well-known member
In my experience they aren't up to the quality standards I would like. For example I'm looking at gunsmithing tools. Everything I see for sale from Wheeler, Pachamayr, etc.. is cheap junk rebranded from China or Taiwan. I don't need bits that break off, round, twist, etc. when I'm working on a gun. If it breaks and scratches the finish it's a major issue. I grinch when I see a gunsmith using what looks like a screwdriver bit driver that came in some gun kit but looks like it was in the dollar tree $1 tool basket.
Yeah, no. That’s not at all what’s happening.
Companies go out of business because the can’t make money. If you’ve been known as a “premium truck tool brand with made in USA products” and then you make the decision to outsource because of business presssures, don’t be surprised when your customers don’t like it and revolt.
Sounds like another brand... I just can’t think of the name.... craftmakers? Craftspeople? Something like that.
Anyway I hear that even the craftspeople brand is moving things back to the US because the Chinese tools were more profitable, but ultimately reduced their long term sales volume.
Matco Is the one doing the nose cutting here. Companies often find themselves in trouble when they sacrifice long term success for short term profitability. Companies that can placate shareholders without selling the farm are going to be in better shape.
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
The Matco Dealer may be an ok guy, and I enjoyed doing business with Him. The truck was clean, orderly, and well stocked. I paid extra for this doorstep service; but now that I need warranty on a broken tool; that truck has vanished. If I locate another truck in up in this corner of the stix, I would have to travel to meet up. With the Matco name stamped on the tool, they will be the only ones that will warranty it. The tool could be mailed in on My time and expense. But, I can't justify these ceremonies for a rebranded tool whose equal could be ordered online or purchased locally at a lower cost.
Small update: just did a BDT warranty on a single $43 Matco air hammer bit. Amazon charged $21.42 for a set of three; doorstep delivery included.
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mudflap
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I seriously doubt that the downfall of sears was due to just the craftsman tool line being made overseas.
Partsguy57
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Wamsutta
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That's fine. They can make their profit off of somebody else. I'll support my fellow Americans working at the Elizabethton Tennessee factory.
Toolhorder
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I agree but it sure didn't help. I haven't bought ANY c-man tools in almost a decade.
dnschmidt
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I tried to give the people super high quality tools at a super good price with TOPTUL and that fell dead on its ***. I'm so glad to be out of that business. Huge pain in the *** - mimimum profit. Made in USA, Made in China, Made in Taiwan. Same **** different day.
Partsguy57
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Most people want cheap.... hence the rise of cheap... markets only respond to what people want... go to Walmart and you can clearly see this in action. One of the reason I sold my Napa store in 2002... the rise of the cheap by the manufacturers responding to what people were demanding.... one has to sell a lot more cheap to make the same profit... was not worth it...
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Pretty much. Snap on quality, at Harbor freight prices, seems to be the name of the game.
At the end of the day, they all get the job done.
From the sounds of it matco pretty much will be going the same direction as your venture.
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Partsguy57
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No they all don't get the job done.... h.f. is legendary for it's one time use or sometimes no use....
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When it comes to their products, there's usually just two camps.
Those that just use them and those that just complain about them.
Does not seem to be a lot in between.
Partsguy57
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Sure.... with your comment it obvious you do very little work as far as automotive wrench turning... I have more then 30 rigs to maintain from minor to major work.. a short list would be, 4 wildfire engines, 2 water trucks, 2 log trucks, 1 semi tractor, 2 stakebeds, 4 pickups, dump truck 12 yard dump truck, bobcat, dozer, excavator, back hoe, roller, trencher, several equipment trailers, several personnel rigs, wives two cars,garage and shop full of dirt bikes and hot rods, now add in friends, kids family . Yea I know nothing about tools and what works and breaks.... h.f is know for quality.... silly me..
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Today's project. Recovering a seat bottom, full filter and maintenance on both engines, fixed a bunch of minor ****, changing out " quality" Waterous gauges for the third time ( won't use theirs this time) . Amazing such junk used when they sell mostly to municipal fire depts.... maybe they source from h.f........
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WittHay
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Three new Matco dealerships up north in BC. Its the quality of the tool boxes that matter the most. Some boxes sold up here in the last couple of months.
The tools that go in the boxes are imported anyways. As long as there is local service where you can actually look at a tool and good warranty thats all that matters to me. That eliminates 3/4 of the tools people recommend on GJ.
Its simple Matco, Mac and Snap-on has a local BC or Canadian sales program, a whole bunch of other brands whether Harbor Freight, Tekton, Wright, Koken or Hazet does not. If a brand cant bother to find local dealers or expand to another country in HF case, they dont get my money.
The tools that go in the boxes are imported anyways. As long as there is local service where you can actually look at a tool and good warranty thats all that matters to me. That eliminates 3/4 of the tools people recommend on GJ.
Its simple Matco, Mac and Snap-on has a local BC or Canadian sales program, a whole bunch of other brands whether Harbor Freight, Tekton, Wright, Koken or Hazet does not. If a brand cant bother to find local dealers or expand to another country in HF case, they dont get my money.
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finn
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I think it’s odd that the thread bitching about Matco tools being made in Taiwan Ir right above the thread singing praise over the high quality Milwaukee tools, which are virtually all made in China.
Hypocrisy, anyone?
Hypocrisy, anyone?
2ndGearRubber
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And if matco rebrands the m12 ratchet, and sold it for $500, there would be bitching. USA pricing without the USA stamp is what seems to bother most. I have plenty of imported tools, Asian and otherwise. People dont want to pay USA prices for Asian tools.
Take the specs to a tiwanesse and US tool company to make a wrench. Product should be essentially identical if specs are identical. One is significantly cheaper to produce, yet the prices are the same. That's the beef people have. Coo is a pointless discussion without a price point.
Take the specs to a tiwanesse and US tool company to make a wrench. Product should be essentially identical if specs are identical. One is significantly cheaper to produce, yet the prices are the same. That's the beef people have. Coo is a pointless discussion without a price point.
There's no such thing as a "USA Price" or a German, UK, Spanish etc.. price.
Just because its made in Taiwan or the east doesn't automatically mean it'll be sold for less or be made to less of a standard than in the west, some tools which you can buy made in the east are far better quality for it than if they were ever made over here.
For the cost of Matco to buy in the equipment, the factory space, the staff & the raw materials to manufacture their tools at home you may well find them costing even more that what your already paying.
To those saying you wouldn't buy Craftsman tools etc.. to support American workers, that sounds like an incredibly stupid idea.
Sears Holdings employ 89,000 people as of the first quarter of 2018, where as snap-on employ a mere 12,100 (as of 2016).
By buying from sears your helping to keep over 7 times the amount of people in work than what snap-on employ.
And sears didn't charge as ridiculous of a mark-up.
Your hatred of import tools is contributing to more job losses than to those keeping them.
Just because its made in Taiwan or the east doesn't automatically mean it'll be sold for less or be made to less of a standard than in the west, some tools which you can buy made in the east are far better quality for it than if they were ever made over here.
For the cost of Matco to buy in the equipment, the factory space, the staff & the raw materials to manufacture their tools at home you may well find them costing even more that what your already paying.
To those saying you wouldn't buy Craftsman tools etc.. to support American workers, that sounds like an incredibly stupid idea.
Sears Holdings employ 89,000 people as of the first quarter of 2018, where as snap-on employ a mere 12,100 (as of 2016).
By buying from sears your helping to keep over 7 times the amount of people in work than what snap-on employ.
And sears didn't charge as ridiculous of a mark-up.
Your hatred of import tools is contributing to more job losses than to those keeping them.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
First world price, would be a better term. If matco switches wrench suppliers from Germany to Sierra Leone, and doesnt drop the price, I can see why people may be upset since a set of wrenches costs 400 dollars.
Tony makes a good point. You dont have to like it, but many US based companies outsource labor and materials to other countries. But they employ American's, pay into the U.S. tax base, healthcare, retirement system, etc. Nose despite face...
Edit: BTW, Harbor Freight (HQ in California) employs about 17,000 people in the U.S.
Edit: BTW, Harbor Freight (HQ in California) employs about 17,000 people in the U.S.
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2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Got no problems with the imports, I just dont feel like paying 400 for a wrench set, from a company that previously chants "usa" like all the trucks did, after they cut their cost by a huge percent. Tool trucks are expensive, one justification numerous truck drivers have listed for 400 dollar wrench sets was usa manufacturing.
I have little need for the trucks, have tools from all over the planet, coo is very rarely considered by me. I never felt the truck value was significant for many items, regardless of where its made.
It's like selling a tie rod job, moog parts, for price X. Then switching to the value craft and not lowering the price. If costs are lowered, I expect a reduction in my cost. If matco was loosing money on 400 dollar wrench sets that had a fixed production cost of 50 tops, they have more to worry about then GJ crying about USA tool production.
WittHay
Well-known member
Its not where the tool is made or the cost but its the features of the actual tool itself and local availability. I am not going to look up the prices but the Mac Precision Torque made in Taiwan combination wrenches look beefier and better made than the US made Knuckle Savers. Mac can charge whatever price it wants for them because they are different.
Same for the Matco Hex Grip long combination wrenches with a very aggressive tooth and box design. Matco can also charge whatever they want for them
its not like there are huge Amazon tool stores where you can compare a Facom wrench to a Wright wrench and you can buy just one wrench. I just broke my Hazet bit socket or my Sunex socket is worn, no problem the guys at the Amazon store will gladly warranty it.
Small businessmen are taking a chance on Matco because they believe Matco has something to offer. No locally based business is stocking Tekton. Sunex, Wright, Hazet. Nothing to do with COO
Same for the Matco Hex Grip long combination wrenches with a very aggressive tooth and box design. Matco can also charge whatever they want for them
its not like there are huge Amazon tool stores where you can compare a Facom wrench to a Wright wrench and you can buy just one wrench. I just broke my Hazet bit socket or my Sunex socket is worn, no problem the guys at the Amazon store will gladly warranty it.
Small businessmen are taking a chance on Matco because they believe Matco has something to offer. No locally based business is stocking Tekton. Sunex, Wright, Hazet. Nothing to do with COO
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Sure.... with your comment it obvious you do very little work as far as automotive wrench turning... I have more then 30 rigs to maintain from minor to major work.. a short list would be, 4 wildfire engines, 2 water trucks, 2 log trucks, 1 semi tractor, 2 stakebeds, 4 pickups, dump truck 12 yard dump truck, bobcat, dozer, excavator, back hoe, roller, trencher, several equipment trailers, several personnel rigs, wives two cars,garage and shop full of dirt bikes and hot rods, now add in friends, kids family . Yea I know nothing about tools and what works and breaks.... h.f is know for quality.... silly me..
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Today's project. Recovering a seat bottom, full filter and maintenance on both engines, fixed a bunch of minor ****, changing out " quality" Waterous gauges for the third time ( won't use theirs this time) . Amazing such junk used when they sell mostly to municipal fire depts.... maybe they source from h.f........
Thats great but just an opinion. I worked for the largest
ford dealer in WA and there were plenty of HF tools used and abused daily. They have plenty of quality tools and they keep improving almost weekly it seems.
I pulled apart a 545D completely using HF rats and sockets a few weeks ago to send the motor in for an overhaul....complete junk I tell ya
reader2580
Well-known member
Yep, 17,000 jobs most of which are barely above minimum wage with no health insurance.
Manufacturing jobs used to pay so well that there was often a waiting list to get a job and most workers stayed until retirement.
reader2580
Well-known member
Great if HF stuff worked for you, but I have had enough experience with bad cheats Chinese tools to try to avoid them. A brand new HF breaker bar had chrome that ended up as sliver in my skin. A Husky open end wrench was way out of tolerance for sizing.
Yep same with union trades. My dad's friend is coming back off a 8 year retirement to go back to his old job
SilverBulletZ06
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Not sure about your area but here they advertise $14.95 starting with benefits for full time.
Jeez, a company provides jobs and still gets bitched at. You know, not everyone is in a position to fill a $50k/year job.
xin
Well-known member
It is like arguing with a rock, people will say how great CHINESE JUNK is yet spend $5 a piece of energy drinks, pay $6-7 for a Pack of CIGS and LIQUOR no problem. I have seen this time and time and time again, they are broke, but somehow by a MIRACLE they got money for CIGS/ALCOHOL...