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J H Williams vintage hand tools

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So I took the small bolts out of the handle, but the reinforcement plate is spot welded on. Looks like it came that way.

Here's an image of the sockets that were in the box when I found it. The 7/16 is marked with the diamond W but has a double groove where the others are single groove. And, a bonus diamond W #1122 obstruction wrench - unplaced and marked 'alloy' on the reverse.

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d42jeep

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Here is a chrome Superrench combo marked USN I found at an estate sale on Friday. I found a catalog listing matching my Bull Dog wrench marked SP CO.
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Private Lugnutz

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(* it appears there may have been a design change at some point *)
That BULLDOG wrench on the left in the 1916 ad has a "< W & B >" (Whitman & Barnes) logo on it. Williams acquired them in 1920 and continued making products with the old Whitman & Barnes brand names, including the BULLDOG wrenches, albeit, as you note, with a slightly different design.

EDIT: I have a pre-Williams Whitman & Barnes BULLDOG wrench that is similar to but slightly different than the wrench in the 1916 ad on the left.
 

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RStewart

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I gift my GJSS one of these each year.
 

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Catfishdan

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I picked up this old 1/2" williams ratchet for a dollar. Didn't realize the drive plug was marked williams until I cleaned it up. Score!
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Nice find, Dan. I scored a Williams 3/4" drive plug at the flea last year. Still looking for a ratchet at a reasonable price. But hey, I found the hard part! :lol_hitti

I picked up these Williams Diamond W 'SuperPlier' NO 1520 at the flea last weekend. I still need to clean them up a bit.

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misterbill

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Picked up this lot of Williams goodies today. What timeframe are the RP style wrenches from?

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3baygarage

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Nice haul Misterbill.

A couple wrenches I found digging to the bottom of the bin at the pawn shop. I was surprised to find the open end special.

It’s a 3/8” x 1/4”.

The box wrench is 7/16” x 3/8”.

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TrailHawkZ71

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Got a small spanner wrench and a 5/8 x 9/16 Superrench af557179677028430e78e17b72b417da.jpg


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Private Lugnutz

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Thanks to a tip from Unaiu about a 1950's era Williams Bantam box in excellent condition on fleaBay, I bought myself a Christmas present, and now have a brand-matching and drive size suitable home for my mainly 1940's era Williams Bantam collection.

These B-6 sets were in two-tone boxes. The black wrinkle finish and decals on the outside and inside of the lid are original. The compartment has been painted black. It should be orange, and you can see the orange coming through in the worn areas and scratches.

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Private Lugnutz

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Here it is with my mainly 40's era Bantam pieces stowed inside. (One of the 8-point sockets and one of the swivel sockets are 50's era pcs, so I kind of like the narrative of it being a wartime set filled in with some postwar tools in a postwar box.)

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The compartment layout and trays will work just fine, although between WWII and the 50's they added a few more 12-point regulars and a few more extra-deep 12-point sockets, which I may try to find, just to fill in the spaces you see. Conversely, they dropped the four (4) swivel sockets. Three (3) Phillips driver attachments went in those slots. I feel no strong compunction to find those and I am perfectly happy with the swivels in there. The extra long (18") extension, the flexible extension, and the L-handle are all 40's holdovers, too. I still need the middle length extension.

It's a little confusing to follow, but between the 1943 and 1950 figures and lists (see Pics 2 through 5), you can see what it is I have, what I need (red highlight), and what I can optionally add if I want (yellow highlight) to complete the sort of evolving wartime to postwar cross-over set I am ending up with.
 

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Oldtuleguy

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Very nice. I like the early williams bantam stuff. I have only come across this one set, maybe late 30s?
 

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1950's era Williams Bantam box in excellent condition on fleaBay, I bought myself a Christmas present, and now have a brand-matching and drive size suitable home for my mainly 1940's era Williams Bantam collection.

And a Merry Christmas indeed. Great looking box and set, Lugz. After seeing that box, I'm even more convinced that the unmarked box I brought home from the flea is Williams.

You're set is coming together nicely. I'll keep my eyes open for your missing pieces. :thumbup:

OTG, that set is cherry!
 

3baygarage

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Very nice guys. Congrats on the box there Lugz. I saw a (partial) set last weekend and May have been like that 7A in the photo or similar. It had the 8pt sockets. All the drive handles missing.The price was not right though, as most of the guy’s prices are end of the rainbow high. I wanted to take it home but I swear if he knows I like something the price goes up. He has a great Hinsdale partial set too, with a nice shiny alemite socket.

I used to see a lot of different Williams boxes but they were often rusted up.
 

Oldtuleguy

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Williams made some stylish tools. Hard to resist when they are in nice condition.
 

Private Lugnutz

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I like the early williams bantam stuff. I have only come across this one set, maybe late 30s?
Or possibly even earlier. I will check tonight when I am with my references. I like it. A nice and tidy minimalists' approach. And the form-fitting compartments are nifty.

After seeing that box, I'm even more convinced that the unmarked box I brought home from the flea is Williams.
Agreed!
 

Private Lugnutz

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Congrats on the box there Lugz.
Thanks. Missed this last night.

Is that a "keeper" or a stand-in? I can make assumptions, but...
Technically, a stand-in. But given how long I've been looking for a 40's box, maybe a keeper! HAHA. As much as I like this box, if I ever run into a 40's box, I know I will move the stuff over.

Otg: Your Bantam B-315 set is not in the 1937 catalog. The only catalog I have earlier than that is a 1931 Superrench only pamphlet, no socket sets. And then the 1912, which is way too early. But I do have a mess of hardware store ads from 4.c, and the Bantam pattern (3/8-inch drive) sets in 1930 have the same "banner" decal (for wont of a better term) and model numbers as they do later in the 30's and 40's. (See Pic from a Beals, McCrthy & Rogers HW Store catalog.) Something about the very atypical decal (both its triangular shape and nomenclature - note, no reference to Williams) and the layout with holders tells me there is something else going on with your set. I have never seen a set like that. Would you please post a close-up of the other label? The one in the bottom where the tools are stowed. Either it's even earlier than 1930 or there's something amiss. Special edition or something.
 

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Oldtuleguy

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I assumed since only speeder has an f prefix it was in the 37 to 42 range. The prefix on bantam stuff was f until 37, then b, except for the speeders, which retained f prefix until 42.
 

Private Lugnutz

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What are your references for this statement, Otg?

Regarding the first part, in the ad from the 1930 Beals McCarthy & Rogers catalog, all the part numbers have a B prefix except the speeder, which has an F prefix.

Regarding the second part, all the Superrench/Supersocket pamphlets I have between 1943 and 1945 still list the speeder as F-15. I think it went to B-15 in 1947.

Please post a photo of that red sticker in the tool compartment.

Meanwhile, maybe 3bay or someone else can chime in on the diamond-shaped decal without any reference to Williams on it. There's no doubt the set is Williams. The Bantam name, the color scheme, and of course the tools are all Williams. It's just a very unique decal.

EDIT: There's no Williams decal on the top of the lid or I assume you would have told me, correct?
 
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Oldtuleguy

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I read up on it on aa, but that could be bad info. Decal in the box says keep well oiled. Nothing on lid. Only cat I have is 1950, so maybe someone on forum has more info...
 

Private Lugnutz

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Even in error, AA is sometimes useful by looking at their reference table.

On their first point (that the model numbers had an F prefix before 1937), they have an A-373 Supersocket booklet dated 10/30 which they say is the first time Williams drive tools appeared. They also have an A-373 Supersocket booklet dated 1/33 and a Tools of Industry catalog dated 2/33. Presumably, these are their source for the info. Unfortunately, they don't ever cite their sources in the narrative sections, so we can only assume that's what they used, and, they don't have an open source library, like TA had, so we can't check it for ourselves.

My info comes from the hardware store catalog I cited above, dated 1930. See Pic 1.

On their second point (that the speeder model number changed over to a B prefix in 1942), they have an A-409 Superrenches/Supersockets booklet dated 5/41 and another one dated 11/45. Note that they list nothing in between. Their next document is the 1947 Tools of Industry catalog. If they looked in the 11/45 A-409 and the speeder was B-15, I suppose they guessed that the change occurred sometime between the 5/41 A-409 and the 11/45 A-409.

They were wrong. As I said it is still F-15 in the 3/45 A-409. See Pic 2.

But that means it switched from F-15 to B-15 sometime between 3/45 and 11/45.

You have a really cool and unique set there, Otg. Still waiting to hear if anyone has ever seen another one, or any other Williams set in any other drive size with a diamond decal and the Williams drive size "pattern" nickname (i.e., "Midget", "Bantam," "Standard," "Heavy Duty" and "Extra Heavy Duty").
 

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four.cycle

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funny that this would come up....
two days ago I downloaded

1914 Hammacher Schlemmer & Co. catalog Williams ads pp 194-206 ( all wrenches - no sockets )

1927 Williams catalog ( all wrenches - no sockets )

1939 W.D. Allen Co. catalog Williams ads pp 343-346 ( shows some sets with diamond-shaped labels inside lids, but no mention of "Bantam" )

1941 Clark & Barlow catalog Williams ads pp 150-161 ( socket sets all have the "banner" logo inside lid - no mention of "Bantam" )

1943 (?) Williams catalog No. 401 (not certain on date of issue) ( "Bantam" pattern 3/8" drive tools shown on page 6 & 7 )

1943 Williams wrenches ad pp 275 ( wrenches only - no sockets )

1947 Williams catalog ( "Bantam" pattern pp 6-7-8 )

1960 Williams catalog No. 504 ( "Bantam" pattern pp 17-18-19 )

all from
https://archive.org/details/internationaltoolcataloglibrary

==

also dug up a half dozen other Williams ads from various publications but nothing that looks like it relates to this current discussion.
 
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