HF going after pro-tools now with ICON line.

[Partsguy57]

Perhaps its not from China,

However out of the 10 largest steel produces worldwide;

1 is based in Luxembourg
2 are based in Japan
4 are based in China
1 is Indian
2 are Korean

Pretty much every bit of steel around you will of came from those companies i'm willing to bet, that includes steel for tools.

Considering the size of those companies making steel of good quality will be extremely easy for them, if the buyer from the tool manufacturer specs that steel is another matter.

If you were to go to a large Chinese or Taiwan etc.. tool manufacturer, and ask them to make a spanner to the same quality as snap-on then they would be able to, easily, fact.

But that would cost more, impacting profit margins for the majority of companies.

Therefore only a few decent companies ask for it, Toptul, Facom, Mac, Matco, Gearwrench, Tekton etc...

All sell excellent quality tools, made abroad, because they don't cheap out and just spec a tool "that'll do".

Even snap-on don't make everything in house.

If there was a market for higher priced tools from Taiwan or other places they would be selling.. there is not is as most people want cheap and the market respondes accordingly. There is always more money selling a premium product but most do not understand this.. Margins with competition always come down to what the market will bear and selling a premium product makes more money. Example... chevy spark vs a loaded Silverado pu. How many more sparks does gm have to sell to match the profit of on Silverado? A ratchet is the same... This is another reason I got out of the auto parts business. Most people want cheap and the manufacturers responded to this.(they have no choice) example there is parts in the 90's that sold for triple ( or more) of what cheap new sell for now. Now think how many more of the cheap at 1/3 of the cost of a premium part I have to sell to make the same bottom line. Any idea of how many more? And why?

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[Partsguy57]

You would do well to buy and read these books:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374533555/?tag=atomicindus08-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592407366/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Lol you would do well to walk in my shoes... a businessman who lives it every day... and you? Can you do more then read? Me I may not be so articulate. I may be a bit opinionated based on personal experience.... I am willing to bet I have far more experience in running a business and dealing with customers,problems in many different areas then you ever have or will. Cheers ( please point out where I am wrong smarty... dispute one thing I am incorrect on in regards to this topic)

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[Sloper0204]

This thread is reminding me of that OP a few years back that went back into being a professional mechanic with nothing but a US General toolbox full of Pittsburgh Pro tools. IIRC he ran with those tools for a few years before jumping back into the "Professional" "Tier 1" tools.


And to help continue the derail of the thread:

people are clueless about margins in most businesses

Every time I've brought it up most people ignore it or don't believe it. In my industry our hourly rates are marked up about 125% from what people are paid (paid $20/hr, billed out at $45/hr kind of thing). But of that markup, profit generally only counts for about 10% of the total ($4.50/hr profit). Everything else covers overhead and keeps the doors open.

 

[Mr_B]

Hmmm again is a gun put to your head? My friend let me explain very carefully you choose what you buy. Many things may influence what you buy, but I can assure you, you choose what you buy. Now of course i have not been on your snap on dealers truck... maybe he does threaten to beat ones costumers with a crescent wrench in order to buy.... mine and every store I have ever been to...not so much so.

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Marketing is a big player hence why so much spent on it .
Sure you buy what you want but that based on consumers opinion which influenced by marketing and brand perception/heritage .
You can also only buy want potentially made available to you and that may not be what you truly want in design quality or pricing (car parts great example of this if look at it over last 2 decades)
Snapon makes some great tools and some complete below par vs competition, they sell strongly in US mainly due to brand perception/heritage and fact huge amount home grown which a huge cultural liking.
Outside the US, Europe for example Facom Toptul Welzch Koken & Stahlwille lead the market and produce some world class high end hand tools, big percentage of Facoms is taiwan made by same oem's supplying many known brands yet quality matches or exceeds even snapon. Stahlwille facom & toptul make equal to better quality for considerably less and include life warranty . Outside the US snapon hasn't competed against higher end taiwan let alone European truck equivalent since the millennium .
Unfortunatly the consumer market not given what it wants or you wouldn't struggle so much selling products and so many brands and retailers wouldn't go bankrupt or sell out to conglomerates ...

 

[dogdog]

Perhaps its not from China,

However out of the 10 largest steel produces worldwide;

1 is based in Luxembourg
2 are based in Japan
4 are based in China
1 is Indian
2 are Korean

Pretty much every bit of steel around you will of came from those companies i'm willing to bet, that includes steel for tools.

Considering the size of those companies making steel of good quality will be extremely easy for them, if the buyer from the tool manufacturer specs that steel is another matter.

If you were to go to a large Chinese or Taiwan etc.. tool manufacturer, and ask them to make a spanner to the same quality as snap-on then they would be able to, easily, fact.

But that would cost more, impacting profit margins for the majority of companies.

Therefore only a few decent companies ask for it, Toptul, Facom, Mac, Matco, Gearwrench, Tekton etc...

All sell excellent quality tools, made abroad, because they don't cheap out and just spec a tool "that'll do".

Even snap-on don't make everything in house.

It doesn't matter what you listed... Everything else is China to these brain washed followers of that orange hair monkey. Even those Korean spams we have been getting on this forum... It's just that mentality, no sensible or logical reasoning at all...

 

[jsmeece]

It doesn't matter what you listed... Everything else is China to these brain washed followers of that orange hair monkey. Even those Korean spams we have been getting on this forum... It's just that mentality, no sensible or logical reasoning at all...

I think it is about time they SHUT this thread DOWN. Some people just cannot keep POLITICS out of discussions.

 

[M6erfan]

 

[dogdog]

I think it is about time they SHUT this thread DOWN. Some people just cannot keep POLITICS out of discussions.

I think it is just that time of the month some people are just too sensitive.... everything / anything say is politic... don't hate the tooth..

 

[emeraldcoupe]

since a lot of you guys think HF automatically means junk, if HF wasn't mentioned, would some of you who don't like HF give these tools a look?

 

[gtsgarage]

I’m definitely interested in seeing these and how they hold up. Although I loaded up on craftsman and gear wrench ratcheting wrenches years ago.

 

[thool]

Baloney.... the market dictates what the manufacture brings to market.. people want cheap hence they sell cheap. Competition always brings margins down so you are in a dream world if you think there is more money in selling cheap.. Cheap is sold because that is what the market wants. There is more money in selling a premium product but unless you are business many do not know or understand this.

Exactly. If retail establishments like HF perceived a market for higher quality products that can be sold at a higher price point and still provide favorable margins, then they would have manufacturing companies bid for that business. They already have plenty of sources for products they can sell at lower prices.

Also consider other retailers like Snap-On, that serve a relatively narrow demographic. Sniping those customers by having a wide product line (from very low price/quality to higher price/quality) makes a lot of sense.

Not sure what all the fuss is about, since they are basically doing the same thing, most other business on planet earth does - offer a premium or "professional" products (at higher prices, of course )to complement their lower priced offerings.

This will appeal to the true professional and those who want to simply feel like a professional, feeling like a less expensive stuff is no longer adequate.

Besides HF have been greatly enhancing their products (as well as prices) for years now, so why not take "pro" to a new level and price structure?

When a customer walks in the door, the goal of any business, is to get them to spend as much as they can.

They are changing their image, and they have a historically tough time shedding the image people have established over the years. No longer is it just a stereotypical outlet for cheap Chinese junk, but now alongside that junk the customer will find premium products. Think of the demographic changing as well, enabled through store credit cards, and we'll likely see VIP services like delivery to site and rewards beyond the coupons and Inside Track.

Spot on with the last statement. No longer do you go to HF for just cheap consumables and another store for higher grade products...you can get most or all shopping done in one place.

 

[Negen]

If there was a market for higher priced tools from Taiwan or other places they would be selling.. there is not is as most people want cheap and the market respondes accordingly. There is always more money selling a premium product but most do not understand this.. Margins with competition always come down to what the market will bear and selling a premium product makes more money. Example... chevy spark vs a loaded Silverado pu. How many more sparks does gm have to sell to match the profit of on Silverado? A ratchet is the same... This is another reason I got out of the auto parts business. Most people want cheap and the manufacturers responded to this.(they have no choice) example there is parts in the 90's that sold for triple ( or more) of what cheap new sell for now. Now think how many more of the cheap at 1/3 of the cost of a premium part I have to sell to make the same bottom line. Any idea of how many more? And why?

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Probably mainly because your expected profit margin is too high. And of course the cost of living is about four or five times too high. I think there is a market for higher end Taiwan tools. Milwaukee wrenches cost more than my Wright grips. Most average Joe never heard of Wright but Milwaukee is nearly a household name. The one retail store that sells channel lock so socket tools sell nearly as high as hje sells sk but every time I go there people are put stuff in their baskets. Most people will by what every works and is easiest to get. Even if channel lock or Milwaukee or dewalt are lower quality than icon the stigma that hf "isn't that bad" will keep people putting dewalt, Milwaukee, gear wrench and channel lock in their tool boxes. Service techs will probably be the type of pros that keep hf icon tools. Or the people who want to replace their Chinese craftsman stuff.

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[87FoRunner]

I want free Icon knives with purchase of impact set!

 

[Mr_B]

since a lot of you guys think HF automatically means junk, if HF wasn't mentioned, would some of you who don't like HF give these tools a look?

I'll certainly give them a look as I do most tools regardless of who retails them or coo, you never know what good or bad or realistic priced until you truly looked at tool offerings from all sources and used a few differing designs etc .

 

[ChrisLS8]

At the end of the day these could very easily be spec out as a 'pro quality tool" regardless of the COO hacks that infer that overseas tools cannot be of quality.

The price point/ discounts and sales are still up in the air so this is all merely speculation at this point

 

[Partsguy57]

H.f came about because of the demand for cheap..they supplied this demand very well and that market has been saturated by them. If they want to grow their base that means a different type of customer ( buying cheap is done for many reasons, budget,times of use, cheap skate etc etc) they need better tools and maybe they will be, maybe much better tools, but their reputation is for selling cheap and that will be hard to change. The higher you move up the quality tool chain the picker the customer will be and coo is part of that.

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[zendriver]

H.f came about because of the demand for cheap..they supplied this demand very well and that market has been saturated by them. If they want to grow their base that means a different type of customer ( buying cheap is done for many reasons, budget,times of use, cheap skate etc etc) they need better tools and maybe they will be, maybe much better tools, but their reputation is for selling cheap and that will be hard to change. The higher you move up the quality tool chain the picker the customer will be and coo is part of that.

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They sell an estimated $5 billion year, In steeply discounted tools, so it's seems their customer base is pretty solid.

Since many Americans are still paid ****, ditching the affordable end, is probably not on their radar.(hopefully)

If they simply start selling higher end, higher priced goods, they will be just like everybody else - a losing proposition.

 

[anetode]

You would do well to buy and read these books:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374533555/?tag=atomicindus08-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592407366/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Lol you would do well to walk in my shoes... a businessman who lives it every day... and you? Can you do more then read? Me I may not be so articulate. I may be a bit opinionated based on personal experience.... I am willing to bet I have far more experience in running a business and dealing with customers,problems in many different areas then you ever have or will. Cheers ( please point out where I am wrong smarty... dispute one thing I am incorrect on in regards to this topic)

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No reason to get defensive because someone suggested a couple of books. FWIW, I've had the pleasure of reading both and they are worthwhile enlightening reads well suited to everyone regardless of their smarts or experience

 

[Partsguy57]

They sell an estimated $5 billion year, In steeply discounted tools, so it's seems their customer base is pretty solid.

Since many Americans are still paid ****, ditching the affordable end, is probably not on their radar.(hopefully)

If they simply start selling higher end, higher priced goods, they will be just like everybody else - a losing proposition.

They sell an estimated $5 billion year, In steeply discounted tools, so it's seems their customer base is pretty solid.

Since many Americans are still paid ****, ditching the affordable end, is probably not on their radar.(hopefully)

If they simply start selling higher end, higher priced goods, they will be just like everybody else - a losing proposition.

Lol deeply discounted? And then you say higher end is a loser? How can that be? They sell cheap tools made at a cheap price to maintain their margins not deeply discounted quality as you imply. (How do deeply discount cheap?)If that were so they would make a killing by simply raising the price as they are a quality tool right? Lmao if there is a market for quality which will include a higher price the market ie customer will respond and reward them with buying. There is a market for quality just a much smaller market as most want cheap. Will h.f be able to add to their customer that they grew on cheap? We shall see if they choose to bring higher quality to the market as the market will decide that and the quality market is picky as you are spending real money vs buying a torque wrench for less then a good burger,fries and shake...

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[Partsguy57]

No reason to get defensive because someone suggested a couple of books. FWIW, I've had the pleasure of reading both and they are worthwhile enlightening reads well suited to everyone regardless of their smarts or experience [emoji481]

No defense.. just a response to someone obviously clueless about business in general. Fun and entertaining actually. Cheers

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[SilverBulletZ06]

I want free Icon knives with purchase of impact set!

I doubt Wusthoff is going to be sold at HF.

At the end of the day these could very easily be spec out as a 'pro quality tool" regardless of the COO hacks that infer that overseas tools cannot be of quality.

The price point/ discounts and sales are still up in the air so this is all merely speculation at this point

H.f came about because of the demand for cheap..they supplied this demand very well and that market has been saturated by them. If they want to grow their base that means a different type of customer ( buying cheap is done for many reasons, budget,times of use, cheap skate etc etc) they need better tools and maybe they will be, maybe much better tools, but their reputation is for selling cheap and that will be hard to change. The higher you move up the quality tool chain the picker the customer will be and coo is part of that.

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I'm hoping they offer better tools like that of SK, MAC, etc so they are in reach of the average pro-sumer and it helps to get more people into wrench turning and home repairs. I follow the "HF PASS/FAIL" thread religiously and buy items when I have a new project that I know isn't going to be a big thing. I also buy multi-use items like my 56" box, show me anything near that box for the same price. I'm not a pro. I'm not a shop owner. Give me a quality tool at a decent price and I will be happy.

I've been eyeing the extra long V-groove wrenches for a while, but I will hold off to see what Icon brings out. If I don't like it I can go Pitts or Tekton or GW. I like choice. I support any place that is trying to provide better tools at reachable prices.

 

[Wamsutta]

Icon combination wrenches? What do they look like?

 

[zendriver]

Lol deeply discounted? And then you say higher end is a loser? How can that be? They sell cheap tools made at a cheap price to maintain their margins not deeply discounted quality as you imply. (How do deeply discount cheap?)If that were so they would make a killing by simply raising the price as they are a quality tool right? Lmao if there is a market for quality which will include a higher price the market ie customer will respond and reward them with buying. There is a market for quality just a much smaller market as most want cheap. Will h.f be able to add to their customer that they grew on cheap? We shall see if they choose to bring higher quality to the market as the market will decide that and the quality market is picky as you are spending real money vs buying a torque wrench for less then a good burger,fries and shake...

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They sell a set of usable ratchet wrenches for $18. That's not "deeply discounted"? They could probably get more.

You missed my point about selling only "higher end". If that all they offer, what's the point? They'd be competing directly with 50 other tool vendors, most well established.

 

[ChrisLS8]

Lol deeply discounted? And then you say higher end is a loser? How can that be? They sell cheap tools made at a cheap price to maintain their margins not deeply discounted quality as you imply. (How do deeply discount cheap?)If that were so they would make a killing by simply raising the price as they are a quality tool right? Lmao if there is a market for quality which will include a higher price the market ie customer will respond and reward them with buying. There is a market for quality just a much smaller market as most want cheap. Will h.f be able to add to their customer that they grew on cheap? We shall see if they choose to bring higher quality to the market as the market will decide that and the quality market is picky as you are spending real money vs buying a torque wrench for less then a good burger,fries and shake...

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You are correct on their base but propose they drastically improve their tools all around the price will skyrocket obviously and they will lose their customer base and how many SO type fans will honestly shop HF for potentially quality tools due to their well deserved stigma for junk?

I think it's smart to offer the lower tiers then a higher pro-sumer line for the more discerning customer looking for something easy to find and higher quality

 

[Partsguy57]

They sell a set of usable ratchet wrenches for $18. That's not "deeply discounted"? They could probably get more.

You missed my point about selling only "higher end". If that all they offer, what's the point? They'd be competing directly with 50 other tool vendors, most well established.

I'm not advocating them selling high end.. that's up to them and if they think they have a customer base that would support that. It could be a tough sell as they have built their base of cheap. 18.00 for a ratchet? Your correct it's not deeply discounted. It's a cheap ratchet for a cheap price. If that works for you great. Not me based on personal experience.

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[Partsguy57]

You are correct on their base but propose they drastically improve their tools all around the price will skyrocket obviously and they will lose their customer base and how many SO type fans will honestly shop HF for potentially quality tools due to their well deserved stigma for junk?

I think it's smart to offer the lower tiers then a higher pro-sumer line for the more discerning customer looking for something easy to find and higher quality

I don't disagree. If there is a market for them there the sells will come.

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[zendriver]

I'm not advocating them selling high end.. that's up to them and if they think they have a customer base that would support that. It could be a tough sell as they have built their base of cheap. 18.00 for a ratchet? Your correct it's not deeply discounted. It's a cheap ratchet for a cheap price. If that works for you great. Not me based on personal experience.

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My term "deeply discounted" was not the best one, I'll admit. Low priced, is a better term.

Since their $5 billion sales is actually higher than high end Snap On, with the obvious difference in pricing between the two, HF must be selling a crapload of products, to get that figure.

That said, my point was that they already have a very large customer base, that will not likely go elsewhere anytime soon and if they want something better than the usual HF fare, the Icon products will be right there in their face.

Like your earlier point on the choice of new automobiles, the move of HF of trying to have "something for everyone" (almost everyone) is a pretty wise move, on their part, IMO

If the icon move is not that initially successful, they'll start issuing coupons.

 

[Partsguy57]

My term "deeply discounted" was not the best one, I'll admit. Low priced, is a better term.

Since their $5 billion sales is actually higher than high end Snap On, with the obvious difference in pricing between the two, HF must be selling a crapload of products, to get that figure.

That said, my point was that they already have a very large customer base, that will not likely go elsewhere anytime soon and if they want something better than the usual HF fare, the Icon products will be right there in their face.

Like your earlier point on the choice of new automobiles, the move of HF of trying to have "something for everyone" (almost everyone) is a pretty wise move, on their part, IMO

If the icon move is not that initially successful, they'll start issuing coupons.

I agree. I think they have tapped their base and like any business they are looking to expand market share which will require a "different" tool marketed to a different crowd.

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[M6erfan]

I agree. I think they have tapped their base and like any business they are looking to expand market share which will require a "different" tool marketed to a different crowd.

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Tapped their base? Not likely...

They are making the smart move into the "mid-tier" tool range. They are well aware of the way a lot of people think of them as Horror Freight.

What will be interesting is to see if they make this move completely or keep the lower end stuff around. I predict they'll have both...

 

[gabeancounter]

I have certainly noticed HF business model changing to higher quality tools.

Most of the tools I purchase from HF are items that I would not normally purchase at quality prices. Example being that I purchased a plate compactor for a driveway and house build project. Would not normally pay $2000 for Wacker model, but $425 for the HF model...yes.

I am in the market for a welder, but the new Vulcan line is almost the same price as the Lincoln model (after rebates). No way will I pay full prices for HF line products. The same thing is happening with Ames, Doyle etc. We can purchase established quality brands for those prices.

Very curious if these quality lines will last. I hope they don't do further damage to Channellock, Proto, SK etc, but those companies need to realize the wolf is at the door.

 

[M6erfan]

I have certainly noticed HF business model changing to higher quality tools.

Most of the tools I purchase from HF are items that I would not normally purchase at quality prices. Example being that I purchased a plate compactor for a driveway and house build project. Would not normally pay $2000 for Wacker model, but $425 for the HF model...yes.

I am in the market for a welder, but the new Vulcan line is almost the same price as the Lincoln model (after rebates). No way will I pay full prices for HF line products. The same thing is happening with Ames, Doyle etc. We can purchase established quality brands for those prices.

Very curious if these quality lines will last. I hope they don't do further damage to Channellock, Proto, SK etc, but those companies need to realize the wolf is at the door.

IMO they'll have to price themselves between the good ol' established brands and their low end stuff. I agree, I'd go established over HF, if pricing is equal.

But not is all rosy either with "established brands". Look at Irwin and Stanley. A lot of it is cheap China **** today.

 

[M6erfan]

Never heard of motivix but what has tekton innovated? Tools I have from them seem no different than any other except their goofy USA screw drivers that are impossible to grip.

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OK, ever heard of Astro Pneumatic? They don't own any factories. They do their design in the U.S. and contract the production out.

Ever heard of Craftsman? Same thing...

 

[Negen]

OK, ever heard of Astro Pneumatic? They don't own any factories. They do their design in the U.S. and contract the production out.

Ever heard of Craftsman? Same thing...

I didn't know astro or craftsman were related to tekton?

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[Wamsutta]

Icon combination wrenches will probably similar to Tekton I would guess.

 

[Partsguy57]

Tapped their base? Not likely...

They are making the smart move into the "mid-tier" tool range. They are well aware of the way a lot of people think of them as Horror Freight.

What will be interesting is to see if they make this move completely or keep the lower end stuff around. I predict they'll have both...

Lol tapped their base? Their base is the cheap crowd hence their move to to mid-tier crowd. Of course they will have to keep their low end as their base is the cheap crowd its what they built their sales base on. You made my point and say so in your post you just don't appear to see it. Go back and read your post.

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[dogdog]

I have certainly noticed HF business model changing to higher quality tools.

Most of the tools I purchase from HF are items that I would not normally purchase at quality prices. Example being that I purchased a plate compactor for a driveway and house build project. Would not normally pay $2000 for Wacker model, but $425 for the HF model...yes.

I am in the market for a welder, but the new Vulcan line is almost the same price as the Lincoln model (after rebates). No way will I pay full prices for HF line products. The same thing is happening with Ames, Doyle etc. We can purchase established quality brands for those prices.

Very curious if these quality lines will last. I hope they don't do further damage to Channellock, Proto, SK etc, but those companies need to realize the wolf is at the door.

Given that all items are same quality... I would have purchase it from HF than other brand... just because I can walk in and exchange no hassle warranty .... Definitely No more ChannelDUck for me... "I would like to have this opportunity and say FU George from ChannelLock"

 

[M_George]

I have certainly noticed HF business model changing to higher quality tools.

Most of the tools I purchase from HF are items that I would not normally purchase at quality prices. Example being that I purchased a plate compactor for a driveway and house build project. Would not normally pay $2000 for Wacker model, but $425 for the HF model...yes.

I am in the market for a welder, but the new Vulcan line is almost the same price as the Lincoln model (after rebates). No way will I pay full prices for HF line products. The same thing is happening with Ames, Doyle etc. We can purchase established quality brands for those prices.

Very curious if these quality lines will last. I hope they don't do further damage to Channellock, Proto, SK etc, but those companies need to realize the wolf is at the door.

How did the plate compactor work out for you? Was it a pass or fail?

 

[Partsguy57]

Given that all items are same quality... I would have purchase it from HF than other brand... just because I can walk in and exchange no hassle warranty .... Definitely No more ChannelDUck for me... "I would like to have this opportunity and say FU George from ChannelLock"

Given that all items are same quality... I would have purchase it from HF than other brand... just because I can walk in and exchange no hassle warranty .... Definitely No more ChannelDUck for me... "I would like to have this opportunity and say FU George from ChannelLock"

Did you say all items at h.f. are the same quality? As compared to what?the wacker? You are in a dream world.

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[dogdog]

Did you say all items at h.f. are the same quality? As compared to what?the wacker? You are in a dream world.

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LOL... that I would have to knock my head out with their mallets to claim that... No normal person would ever claim that HF tools are all the same quality...

No I am referring to their pro line of tools compare to others brands of the same tool.. the advantage iwith HF s easier to exchange and warranty and of cause I have to Jab in my horrible experience with Channelfucks.... (this old guy holds a grudge)

 

[M6erfan]

I didn't know astro or craftsman were related to tekton?

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They're not. What's your point?