Converting main house to a subpanel from garage

[macs shop]

The PoCo came out yesterday and told me the garage is going to be too close to the service line, and the service line either has to go underground, or main feed the garage and then feed the house from the garage. As I think this through, I want to be sure I understand the bonded ground situation. (I dont know if code changes will matter, but Kentucky is scheduled to adopt NEC 2017 as of 1-1-19)

I am choosing the garage main, quicker and easier to get approval from PoCo.

Feed a 200A garage main, grounded with 2 copper rods,neutral bonded to ground. Then feed the house off a 200a breaker.

The panel in the house now becomes a sub panel. It is an old Zinsco and will be replaced, but maybe not at the same time,as I am considering doing it myself, because the electricians want ~$2400 to change over a panel....crazy...

The house panel has 1 ground/neutral bar, all ground and neutrals are tied into it. The whole thing is grounded to my water line on the other side of the house. If I understand now being a sub panel, the ground and nuetral are not supposed to be bonded. This creates a bit of an issue. Is there a way to install another bar, isolated and move my neutrals over temporarily -meaning a few days, until I can change out the box? Or am I way off base.

 

[Zeke]

You can buy a separate buss but it may not be approved for use in your Zinsco.

I'm just getting you started so you can search like maybe Mike Holt. Others the know way more than I will chime in here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes you will need to isolate the neutral bar and move grounds over to a new bar.

The problem is this can prove almost impossible for an obsolete panel such as zinsco.

You probably wont find a ground bar that is listed for it and if the neutral bar is bolted directly to the panel enclosure then how would you isolate it? Plastic insulators are not gonna be available.

Also, you will need to run 4 wires to this panel from the garage panel.

This is a major project and will mean extended time of no power for the house.

Have you thought of getting quotes from a few other companies?

 

[macs shop]

I have another guy coming out today, I have talked with several, but the scope of the project changed yesterday.

understood on the 4 wire feed.

also agreed on taking extended time to perform the entire project. Thats why i am thinking if there is a way I could prep the Zinsco to become a subpanel, and replace it myself over a weekend. Supplying any auxillary from the garage while I replace the Zinsco on my own time frame.

thinking each step is a different day, week, whatever...
step 1) prep the panel for isolating nuetral, physically seperate, and run a wire to tie
buses together for bonding, and easily isolate later. This is the biggest challenge
step 2) have the garage panel, meter pan, mast, weather head installed, and feeder line
to house ran
step 3) have PoCo move the service from house to garage, and pull grounding bond on
house subpanel, connect house subpanel to feeder from garage.
Step 4) change out the Zinsco panel

 

[macs shop]

Maybe instead of trying to *rig* this old box, I instead just plan full replacement after the service line is moved. I have a generator, and the garage will have power.

Its not an off/on permit with the PoCo, so I should be able to pull my own permit.

 

[exranger06]

Seems like it would be easier to swap out the house panel first. Keep the neutral bar bonded for now, and hook the panel up to the meter temporarily like it is now. Then get the garage panel installed, install the meter socket on the garage, and run the line to the house. Then the PoCo can swap the service over, you can make the final feed connection in the house panel and remove the neutral bond all in the same day.

 

[macs shop]

It may be easier, but expensive. I cannot upgrade the panel on a homeowners Permit because the service line power has to be disconnected. Only a licensed electrician can pull that permit. If I wanted to replace a subpanel in a garage, I can pull a homeowners permit. So far all my quotes are over $2K to replace the main panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I bet there's a reason that the quotes to swap out this Panel are high.

Why don't you take some pictures of the panel with the covers on and off and post them here so we can see what you're dealing with.

BTW how do you plan on changing the zinsco to 4-wire? Have you even looked inside the panel to see if its even feasable? Then the next issue is parts availability which is nil for zinsco for such things as conversion parts.

 

[Zeke]

This is a logistics exercise. Who's on first and all that.

FOA, what is wrong with new underground to house? Trenchers rent cheap. That is unless your property is a difficult dig. You're gonna do to the shop to the house anyway, so you could dig it all.

The PoCo is gonna wonder about coming hot to your garage with a new meter base and panel and yet no power plan to the house. Prepping the old panel to receive the new 4 wire feed from the garage is the same as replacing it AFA as the AHJ is concerned. Moving grounds "for a few days" is not practical in my mind. Listen to Wylie. Do it all or do nothing.

Keep looking for an electrician. If you're actually good enough to do your own replacement at the house, find someone that will allow you to do the rough and let him tie it in. With permits (IKD how much in your district) that should amount to half a day's wages plus his P and O. Everyone has to eat.

Lastly, how much is 2K with respect to all your improvement of late expenses? And what all is included in the 2K? If you don't have 2 grand in contingency funds then you should just use that generator in the shop for now.

Not being terse — the theme of my comments is 'practical'. I'm a contractor dealing with issues all the time. I'm not an electrical contractor so I'm just looking at logistics/practicality.

 

[macs shop]

I bet there's a reason that the quotes to swap out this Panel are high.

Why don't you take some pictures of the panel with the covers on and off and post them here so we can see what you're dealing with.

BTW how do you plan on changing the zinsco to 4-wire? Have you even looked inside the panel to see if its even feasable? Then the next issue is parts availability which is nil for zinsco for such things as conversion parts.

It really should be a straight forward swap and its accessible. One guy mentioned that a few of the wires may be a little short if I go with a bigger box. That is the only consideration I can see that would be a hassle. If there is something else, please let me know, because I may be missing it.

I am not liking the idea of converting the Zinsco box, it really does just need to go.

 

[macs shop]

This is a logistics exercise. Who's on first and all that.

FOA, what is wrong with new underground to house? Trenchers rent cheap. That is unless your property is a difficult dig. You're gonna do to the shop to the house anyway, so you could dig it all.

The PoCo is gonna wonder about coming hot to your garage with a new meter base and panel and yet no power plan to the house. Prepping the old panel to receive the new 4 wire feed from the garage is the same as replacing it AFA as the AHJ is concerned. Moving grounds "for a few days" is not practical in my mind. Listen to Wylie. Do it all or do nothing.

Keep looking for an electrician. If you're actually good enough to do your own replacement at the house, find someone that will allow you to do the rough and let him tie it in. With permits (IKD how much in your district) that should amount to half a day's wages plus his P and O. Everyone has to eat.

Lastly, how much is 2K with respect to all your improvement of late expenses? And what all is included in the 2K? If you don't have 2 grand in contingency funds then you should just use that generator in the shop for now.

Not being terse — the theme of my comments is 'practical'. I'm a contractor dealing with issues all the time. I'm not an electrical contractor so I'm just looking at logistics/practicality.

The biggest problem going underground is the Electric Company Engineer told me it would take him a mininum of 8 weeks to get that approved through design engineering. But, if I just wanted to go from the pole to garage, he could approve that instantly.

As far as seeming suspect about no power plan for the house, both the electric company, and the permit office told me they dont care what I do past that main panel, I can pull a home owners permit. So, if I run the house off a generator for a few days, its feasible. However, neither of them are the actual inspector.

$2k is not the end of the world, and I am certainly willing to pay for knowledge and time, agreed everyone has to make a living. $2k is well within the runover budget. The $2,400 quote included pulling new feed wire from the original service connection, as it is 3/0 AL, and replacing the panel.

I have had 2 other quotes for $2300 and $2100 to put a 100A panel in the garage and run a couple of circuits to get it to pass code. That included me digging the trench and them running the feed out to the garage.

 

[Zeke]

Well as I said, you can do a lot of that work yourself.

I didn't really address this correctly. I knew you were going to have a drop to the garage, not a trench. I meant you could did the trench to the house. And, I guess it's still legal, you can run overhead from garage to house.

But correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you first say you couldn't pull an owner/builder permit for the work at the house but you could for the panel and wiring for the garage. OK, wait, I read it again. You can pull the permit for the house as long as you can disconnect the feed, right?

But under the new plan here, can you pull the permit for the main panel in the garage and once inspected, come hot there? Then under the same permit, do the house change out. I know I'm a bit confused but once we all understand one another, I guess your original question will be answered. That's the goal.

 

[mvusse]

Even if you decide to have the meter and main panel in the garage, and run the house off a sub panel, check with the power company to make sure you're still paying residential rates. I thought of getting a separate feed for my garage, but the power company (AEP Ohio) told me since nobody lives in the garage it would be commercial rates.

The shop I used to rent to run my furniture shop out of I was charged for medium commercial service (based my my peak usage, which was usually around 6-7KW). Per kilowatt hour I paid 4 times as much as the residential service to my house.

 

[macs shop]

LOL, sorry about that, I am all over the place. thanks for hanging in there and trying to help me bounce ideas.

As a homeowner, apparently I can pull a permit and upgrade any subpanel.
If the PoCo has to disconnect the service, such as when replacing a main panel, only a licensed electrician can pull that permit.

Under the new plan, a licensed electrician would need to put the main panel (and meter pan) on the garage. From there I can pull a permit and replace my house panel, as it is technically now a subpanel.

So,after rereading your comment, are you suggesting that I install a subpanel in the garage under a homeowners. and then later "change my mind" and have the PoCo change the feed, and pay an electician to wire in the feed and permit? If so, I like it, except I do not have enough room in my Zinsco panel to pull a feed off it to start with. I could wire the complete panel in the garage, just couldnt make it hot until I pull service directly off pole

 

[macs shop]

Even if you decide to have the meter and main panel in the garage, and run the house off a sub panel, check with the power company to make sure you're still paying residential rates. I thought of getting a separate feed for my garage, but the power company (AEP Ohio) told me since nobody lives in the garage it would be commercial rates.

The shop I used to rent to run my furniture shop out of I was charged for medium commercial service (based my my peak usage, which was usually around 6-7KW). Per kilowatt hour I paid 4 times as much as the residential service to my house.

Thats just idiotic of AEP, but good to know, the guy from the PoCo didnt say anything about that, but I will double check.

 

[Bert_]

This doesn't need to be that complicated. Do it right and you can switch it all over in an easy day and only be without power for a few hours.

What I would do is, install a meter/main on the garage with the riser and wires all connected, trench to house and put in the wire. Leave the end at the house uncovered and leave the wire hanging, the end at the meter can be connected. All this can be done ahead of time with no involvement of the utility or interuption of power.

Now when your ready to switch the panel the utility can come out, disconnect the old service and connect the new service in one shot, leave the new main off. Now the panel in the house can be ripped out and new one installed. Finish running the conduit for the new wire you trenched and hook it up. Finally hook all you branch circuits back up.

Put the subpanel in the garage when it is convenient.

 

[larry4406]

I like Bert's plan with a twist. Add a utility disconnect at the garage, and make it generator ready.

 

[sberry]

I have has service upgrades with new beside old ready to convert and been down 10 minutes. After inspection I start and setup a changeover, have even heated the buss on the new from the old and move some stuff, after the switch heat the rest of the old from the new. Change a few out one at a time after till the old is abandoned.

 

[tfi racing]

This doesn't need to be that complicated. Do it right and you can switch it all over in an easy day and only be without power for a few hours.

What I would do is, install a meter/main on the garage with the riser and wires all connected, trench to house and put in the wire. Leave the end at the house uncovered and leave the wire hanging, the end at the meter can be connected. All this can be done ahead of time with no involvement of the utility or interuption of power.

Now when your ready to switch the panel the utility can come out, disconnect the old service and connect the new service in one shot, leave the new main off. Now the panel in the house can be ripped out and new one installed. Finish running the conduit for the new wire you trenched and hook it up. Finally hook all you branch circuits back up.

Put the subpanel in the garage when it is convenient.

This is how you go about it, done this exact project dozens of times.Sometimes on a contractor's permit for the entire job,or split off the feeder and house sub panel portion to the homeowner's permit.