Heat pump repair

[fowldarr]

Not a garage question, a house question.

I was told today that the compressor in my exterior condenser (AC unit) is bad. Of course, with a heat pump this mean no heat or AC.

The quote I received for repairs made me choke on my lunch. This doesn't seem like a DIY job, with all the fittings and refrigerant, but a nearly $3500 quote feels on the high side to me.

That being said, I'm not an HVAC tech. I have no idea how long this should take, or what all is involved.

Do any of you have thoughts and opinions on this?

While you consider your response, I'm going to go chop some firewood.

 

[tom-ky]

A couple years ago I had a new 3 ton unit put in for less than that.

 

[fowldarr]

Yeah, I'm waiting on a couple of other quotes. But for that price, I could install 2 Mr. Cool mini-splits.

 

[jjrbus]

Lots of good ac guys around and far too many smash and grab types.

If you can't get a decent price ask at the local HVAC distributor for a recommendation, they know who the good guys are.

 

[fowldarr]

The bid came from the recommended 'best in the area'.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not saying that it's to high as I have no point of comparison. It 'feels' high to me. But, maybe it is what it costs. People think I get paid too much for what I do, but they have no idea what I actually do, and I try to be cognizant of that.

 

[Davefr]

Not a garage question, a house question.

I was told today that the compressor in my exterior condenser (AC unit) is bad. Of course, with a heat pump this mean no heat or AC.

Do any of you have thoughts and opinions on this?

Get a second opinion and/or have the tech show you why he thinks it's bad.

It could be as simple as a bad contactor, relay, control board, capacitor, etc.

There are a lot of HVAC "hacks" who lack basic diagnostic skills and get incentives to up sell.

 

[Done That]

I would have guessed $1000-$1500 range ballpark.

How old is this unit?

 

[OccupantRJ]

Since I have underhouse ducts, I bought a 2.5 ton package heat pump online for $1,825 and set it into place myself.

 

[fowldarr]

Nobody is quite sure how old it is.

Was here before I bought it.

Definitely not as old as the house


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[86turbodsl]

My brother just had a 4 ton heat pump put in his garage. Like $7500. Your bid sounds fine to me. If you were more adventurous, surplus compressors are available for less than $500. You could repair for pretty cheap if it's the typical compressor failure.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I would have guessed $1000-$1500 range ballpark.

How old is this unit?

The compressor costs more than that. The quote isn't bad.

Tommy

 

[fowldarr]

I priced out the compressor at just over $700 (their quote lists it at $1300, plus $177 in freight charges. Plus 10 hours of labor (tech manual estimates 5-6)


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[justinjoyal]

Check out www.hvac-talk.com

There's a list/map of contractors, maybe you can find a good one in your area. Be aware that is not a DIY site, so don't ask for DIY advice there.

 

[jjrbus]

Nobody is quite sure how old it is.

Was here before I bought it.

Definitely not as old as the house


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

I thought a furnace or AC unit age could be looked up by model/serial number? I seem to remember a tech telling me mine was 11 years old, I could be wrong.

It would seem that putting that type of money in a 10 year old unit would be a waste. My opinion and the way I do things.

 

[Done That]

The compressor costs more than that. The quote isn't bad.

Tommy

Not here. My 2013 flat rate pricing book has the complete job at $1,585.86 for a stadard efficiency 3-5t unit. I was low, but adding for inflation still isn't a $3,500 job, at least not in the STL area.

 

[acmikee]

what kind of failure did you have.. is it grounded or open windings. this will determine the amount of cleanup that is needed. are they replacing the reversing valve, driers, start components. it may be cheaper to replace the whole condensing unit.

 

[fowldarr]

Thanks guys, I'm working on getting some other quotes. It's not atypical to pay a premium for these services on the coast, I'll let you all know what I find out.

In the meantime, I shared the information I had with the guy that gave me the quote. We will see what he says.

Here are the inconsistencies I have:

The system had to be filled with refrigerant earlier this year (and dye to find a leak). It cost around $350 to do so. This quote is almost $800 fr the refrigerant. I have found the compressor in multiple places for $7-800 (they are at $1200). That's a 50% markup (seems excessive), and the tech manual I have access to estimates the job at 5-6 hours and they quoted 10.

This is enough to make me get other quotes. I really like my technician (the quote doesn't come from him), so I would hate to have to use somebody else. He really does good work. (and before anybody asks, he is not allowed to do work on the side).

At risk of sounding like a broken record, this might just be what it costs in my area. We do pay a premium for services on the coast, and there are few people that provide them which causes a market inflation. I'm always hesitant to say "can you believe how much this costs!"

I work in healthcare and I hear that a lot.

 

[yeldogt]

Typically with an old R12 unit -- most don't want to replace only the compressor. I'm assuming with the $800 dollar cost of the refrigerant .. that's what it is. It's a lot of labor and an expensive part going into what in now a vey old system. R12 is expensive vs the newer refrigerants.

Naturally -- everybody has a "friend" .. who just happens to have the compressor and an old tank of R12 sitting around .... and does it for a case of beer. Still running 10 years later.

You would be better off looking at the system now before you get in too deep. What did they find when it was serviced? -- if it was low .. it had to be leaking.

Do you have a furnace as well -- or only HP?

If you plan on staying -- I would go online and see if your state has any programs. Some are really amazing.

At some point it's time to replace -- the new units are much more efficient and very quiet. Even without state programs -- there are rebates available.

Also -- you could never get two mini's installed for that a price.

 

[fowldarr]

Alright, I know that everyone is worried about me. I got a 'telephone quote' from another company. They said it is $3000 +/- $500.

I talked to a friend with 25 years experience in the industry. He is not surprised at all by a quote in the neighborhood of $3500. (though he said it is on the high side).

So, there you go. I guess this is what it costs.

I am looking into the alternative of replacing the entire condenser rather than just the compressor (if I'm spending that much anyway).

 

[Davefr]

I am looking into the alternative of replacing the entire condenser rather than just the compressor (if I'm spending that much anyway).

Replacing the condenser may also require replacing the evaporator and air handler if it's an older system.

 

[Falcon67]

Check out www.hvac-talk.com

There's a list/map of contractors, maybe you can find a good one in your area. Be aware that is not a DIY site, so don't ask for DIY advice there.

X2 - No DIY, you'll get banned ASAP.

 

[yeldogt]

Alright, I know that everyone is worried about me. I got a 'telephone quote' from another company. They said it is $3000 +/- $500.

I talked to a friend with 25 years experience in the industry. He is not surprised at all by a quote in the neighborhood of $3500. (though he said it is on the high side).

So, there you go. I guess this is what it costs.

I am looking into the alternative of replacing the entire condenser rather than just the compressor (if I'm spending that much anyway).

If it's R12 -- you will need to replace the evaporator as well. As I asked previously .. what the rest of the system? What was fixed when they did the earlier service?

 

[fowldarr]

It’s R22, it’s a heat pump. So it has the exterior condenser and an inside ‘furnace’ (has heat coils when necessary, but largely runs off the condenser)

Confirmed that replacing the condenser is not an option without replacing the entire system.


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[metlmunchr]

Search "dry charged heat pump" on ebay. There is a seller there who has the full line of 13 seer Goodman heat pump outdoor units that are designed for use with R22. The dry charged description means they come with a nitrogen charge rather than precharged with refrigerant. This gets around the government phaseout of selling refrigerant charged R22 units.

Dupont MO99 is a drop in replacement for R22 and its current price is less than half that of R22. My own experience with MO99 in residential heat pumps is that there's no noticeable difference in heating or cooling, and that the compressor amperage draw on MO99 will run about 10% lower than R22 for the same operating conditions. A 25 lb drum of MO99 (more than enough to charge any 5 ton or less heat pump) can be purchased on Ebay for about $260 including shipping.

You didn't mention the size of your current unit, but, for example, you could buy a 4 ton condensing unit and a 25# cylinder of MO99 for a bit less than $2200 shipped.

Even if you had to pay someone $1000 to change out the unit, it would be a far better investment than spending $3500 on a compressor for a unit that's likely pushing 20 yrs old based on the fact that that's the approximate time frame when 410a units came into wide use for most all new installations.

Did you ask the service tech whether the compressor had a mechanical failure or if it was a burnout? If not, you should as that determines the procedures used in replacing a compressor or changing out to a new unit. Mechanical failure makes the job much simpler than a burnout.

 

[yeldogt]

It’s R22, it’s a heat pump. So it has the exterior condenser and an inside ‘furnace’ (has heat coils when necessary, but largely runs off the condenser)

Confirmed that replacing the condenser is not an option without replacing the entire system.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

When you say "heat coils" is this electric heat coils for back up heat ?

If that's the case and there is no furnace -- you have an air handler inside. So, yes -- that would need to be replaced so it all matches and coil is set up for new refrigerant type.

You still have not told us what the problem was regarding the low charge on the previous service .... if they just added.. you have a leak and replacing the compressor is not going to be the only thing needed.

With new efficiencies and better performance in systems today -- putting too much towards the old is not something I would do.

 

[shadycrew31]

I am still confused as to what the issue is and what was recommended by the tech...

I paid $5000 for a new Trane 3 ton heatpump, lines, and evap coil and install about 3 years ago. I cant imagine a goodman unit costing more than $4k. Throw it on a Home Depot or Lowes card with 0 % for 2 years and be done with it.

 

[acmikee]

was your leak ever located and repaired. if not STOP locate the leak first. if yes what type of failure did you have is it bad valves, grounded, open windings knowing this will determine the repair/replace
a compressor replacement is not a 5-6hr job. you need to pickup the parts, drive to the job, reclaim the refrigerant, r/r the compressor-start components-driers, evac the system, recharge the unit, test operation, clean up and put away your tools
the reason for the mark up is to cover warrantee if needed, service truck, tools, office personal....

 

[nh_yota]

If your system runs on R22 then it's pretty old and it may be worth replacing the whole system even if it costs twice the price of the compressor replacement. It's like putting a brand new engine in a 20 year old truck - at the end of the day you still have a 20 year old truck. The efficiency gained by the new system will offset its cost.

 

[fowldarr]

Okay, I'm going to try to answer all of the questions:

1) It is an older unit. I previously received a quote for updating the whole system. Unfortunately, the existing system wasn't installed to current standards, and was before an addition onto the house. So system replacement is expensive (if done right). I do not know what happened to the compressor, but I will ask. I was told there is no 'acid' in the system.

2) Current unit is a 3.5T unit, (Should be 4 at a minimum and 5 preferred according to the quote).

3) the existing ductwork won't handle a larger unit and most would need replaced.

4) there are not enough 'return air' vents in the house. (the house has been added onto twice)

5) I misspoke when I said furnace, you are correct, it is an air handler in the garage.

6) The leak has been located. It will be repaired at the same time as the compressor change out.

7) I have no intention of doing this myself.

8) I have 3 quotes now. 1: $3500; 2: 2500-3500; 3: 2900.

9) this has led me to accept quote 1 as reasonable (though high) for my area. They have the best reputation, service the hospital I work at, and have serviced my system before. I will pay a $500-600 premium for known quality/warrantied work.

10) Because of the cost of upgrading the entire system (new ductwork and all), I will likely be repairing the condenser for now. If I had the money, and wasn't already in line for a new roof this year, I would replace the system. I agree it just makes sense, but I can't afford it right now.

Thank you all for your input.

 

[fowldarr]

And the system was manufactured in 2004 (14 years old)

 

[shadycrew31]

IMO. Once you start repairing leaks and limping units along you end up spending more than the cost of a new system within a few years time.

You are essentially paying for a $3500 band-aid and the warranty will only be good on the pinhole they fixed and the compressor. All new leaks, condenser coils, pressure switches, etc will all come out of pocket.

I get money is tight and you gotta do what you gotta do. I'm just speaking form experience its best to find the money now then pay double in the future.

Good luck either way, hope things work out for the best!

 

[yeldogt]

The issue with fixing leaks. If one of the valves is leaking -- that's one thing .. even a connection from the time of installation can be fixed ... if it's in one of the coils and it's not caused by an obvious manufacturing defect ,,, there is a good chance it's going to leak from someplace else.

Any issues and you paying big bucks again for all the R12 ... make sure they are sure they can fix it .. and otherwise in good shape.

 

[acmikee]

ok so its probably not a grounded compressor so I guess its open windings or bad valves and I guess it doesn't have a low pressure switch.

you need to replace the compressor with new start components, new drier, new refrigerant and add a low pressure switch. this is not a 5-6hr job so quite trying to low ball your contractor yeah he can take some short cuts and save some time but you get what you pay for and you cant do the job yourself or even buy the refrigerant.

 

[fowldarr]

Thanks again for the advice everybody. I will ask about the low pressure switch.

I do want to reemphasize, my questions come out of sheer ignorance. I really didn't know if that was a decent price or not, or if the hours predicted were correct, or what the cost of the compressor should be. I was doing a lot of research, and I have found that this is one of the places I can come for valid opinions. I never tried to low ball my contractor, just asked them to explain their quote so I understood where my money was going, and I got some other quotes to make sure I was getting a fair deal.

As I stated above, I have determined that the quote I received is within the realm of reasonable for the task at hand.

Unfortunately, the quote for the system upgrade is 4-5x's what it costs to repair with the compressor. So, I'm going to pay for the compressor install, and likely do the system update in 2 years

2018-19: New roof
2019-20: Electrical upgrade (shop, eaves, garage, exterior lighting)
2020-21: HVAC upgrade
2021-22: Add a bathroom and update master bath

If I didn't need a roof, and I really do, I would move up the HVAC and do it this year. Because I live in Oregon, I could actually limit my HVAC usage down to almost nothing anyway (it's 52 degrees right now), I have a wood stove insert to warm the house, and my windows open for summer and it rarely gets above 80.

 

[MattT]

2) Current unit is a 3.5T unit, (Should be 4 at a minimum and 5 preferred according to the quote).

You've been living with 3.5 tons so you already know whether it's enough. And if it is you don't need the upsell tonnage and duct work.

 

[Brian_WK]

The issue with fixing leaks. If one of the valves is leaking -- that's one thing .. even a connection from the time of installation can be fixed ... if it's in one of the coils and it's not caused by an obvious manufacturing defect ,,, there is a good chance it's going to leak from someplace else.

Any issues and you paying big bucks again for all the R12 ... make sure they are sure they can fix it .. and otherwise in good shape.

R-12 was never used in split system residential HVAC. Definitely not in 2004. HP are a different breed then your normal a/c units. The indoor coil and expansion valve must match perfectly or you will have issues. I'm guessing the quote is interior coil, line set, and exterior unit as well as any ductwork to replace the interior coil.

Don't change the compressor. 2004 is one year less then what I would consider a heat pumps expected life span. (20 years is what I would consider A/C life span in a dual climate area) if you replace the compressor your on borrowed time.

 

[jjrbus]

I have been told multiple times we do not guesstimate size needed or use a rule of thumb.

The pro's I respect do a manual J load calculation and put the correct size in. Then do a manual D for duct work, not I have been doing this for 54 years and know what I'm doing.


http://www.loadcalc.net/

 

[shadycrew31]

Thanks again for the advice everybody. I will ask about the low pressure switch.

I do want to reemphasize, my questions come out of sheer ignorance. I really didn't know if that was a decent price or not, or if the hours predicted were correct, or what the cost of the compressor should be. I was doing a lot of research, and I have found that this is one of the places I can come for valid opinions. I never tried to low ball my contractor, just asked them to explain their quote so I understood where my money was going, and I got some other quotes to make sure I was getting a fair deal.

As I stated above, I have determined that the quote I received is within the realm of reasonable for the task at hand.

Unfortunately, the quote for the system upgrade is 4-5x's what it costs to repair with the compressor. So, I'm going to pay for the compressor install, and likely do the system update in 2 years

2018-19: New roof
2019-20: Electrical upgrade (shop, eaves, garage, exterior lighting)
2020-21: HVAC upgrade
2021-22: Add a bathroom and update master bath

If I didn't need a roof, and I really do, I would move up the HVAC and do it this year. Because I live in Oregon, I could actually limit my HVAC usage down to almost nothing anyway (it's 52 degrees right now), I have a wood stove insert to warm the house, and my windows open for summer and it rarely gets above 80.

I would run on the wood stove through the winter and do the full retrofit next year before summer. Roof would definitely take priority though... Cant blame you on that. But... I really cant stress enough that planning for 2 years more with this setup is more than a long shot. Possible, but still a long shot.

 

[yeldogt]

R-12 was never used in split system residential HVAC. Definitely not in 2004. HP are a different breed then your normal a/c units. The indoor coil and expansion valve must match perfectly or you will have issues. I'm guessing the quote is interior coil, line set, and exterior unit as well as any ductwork to replace the interior coil.

Don't change the compressor. 2004 is one year less then what I would consider a heat pumps expected life span. (20 years is what I would consider A/C life span in a dual climate area) if you replace the compressor your on borrowed time.

My bad ,,, it's R22 not R12 ... my points are all the same. Just like cars with R12 ... the cost of future leaks just in refrigerant costs makes one think about alternatives. This is especially true in home systems that are large with large line sets ... the amount of refrigerant needed after a leak can be a lost of cash.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I had a quote for a new compressor on a Trane/American Standard and installed it was like $1,500. I instead just got a new condensing unit.

Family member just had a new compressor on a 5 ton unit and it was about the same price, maybe a few hundred more. Been working great last I heard.

I would not recommend replacing just a compressor, but in some situations I can see it making sense. My understanding is you can't buy R22 condensing units anymore because of the EPA, so it's basically replacing the compressor or going all new.