Illegal Service Hook Up. Need Advice.
- Thread starter roblouvasz
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I wouldn't be one to steal power. But I bet if you did it all real professional looking, U guard up the pole and used h-taps to connect your wires, you could get away with it for a long time. Maybe incorporate a relay so that if your metered power got shut off it would also shut off the unmetered power.
Back on topic I would be talking to the power company before you buy it. Be upfront with the seller about your concerns and that you want to talk with the utility company before you proceed.
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OP
roblouvasz
Well-known member
So there's two left panels, but no right panel?
WTF does this even mean?
I corrected my post. You must have missed the correction.
OP
roblouvasz
Well-known member
Apparently the previous (deceased) owner was a bit crooked and had someone do the hook up for him that worked for the utility co.
Tunajoe
Well-known member
OP, I'd be using this "illegal" connection to negotiate a better deal.
Put it in writing, nicely and professionally, that you've had professionals out to determine what needs to be done to correct it (inflate the cost greatly) and adjust your offer accordingly.
I've purchased several homes using this strategy.
Put it in writing, nicely and professionally, that you've had professionals out to determine what needs to be done to correct it (inflate the cost greatly) and adjust your offer accordingly.
I've purchased several homes using this strategy.
Is this just your opinion or has some one told you this? How were you able to follow the buried cable to the pole? Are you sure the second panel isn’t fed from somewhere else? Say the house?
OP
roblouvasz
Well-known member
That's exactly what he did. U guard up the pole right next to the other U guarded line that connects to the meter. And BTW, I did check the house panel in the basement, and didn't find any large gauge wire coming out of it except for the line going to the outside central air unit.
Toomanytools?
Well-known member
Waiting until after the sale sounds like a pain in the @ss.
I think it's been said call the power company have them look at it, they should have a record of it or someone may even remember doing the work. Unless the guy that did it illegally comes out. Even if the sale goes through, address it first thing. It's always harder to get money back once things have been done though.
Remove yourself from the forum for a few days and enjoy Christmas if you can.
Innovate1
Well-known member
It may be that there is a hidden splice somewhere that connects the panels. Helped my sister with an old house she bought that had three fuse boxes. It wasn't obvious where the panels tied together. We eventually knocked down the house because of numerous issues and put up another. In the tear down I found a splice in the wall between the meter base and the fuse boxes. Just U clamps and tape. It may be that someone knew someone at the power company to set up an illegal feed but it seems unlikely.
Out of curiosity, who is the power company ?
I'd make the call to the local PoCo, give them the address and the pole number where the connection is made. I'm sure they will be happy to take care of it.
The pole should have a thin metal plate nailed to it or a strip with numbers on it. It'll about 5-6 feet off the ground. Locally, I know enough of the AEP guys to get it solved.
I'd make the call to the local PoCo, give them the address and the pole number where the connection is made. I'm sure they will be happy to take care of it.
The pole should have a thin metal plate nailed to it or a strip with numbers on it. It'll about 5-6 feet off the ground. Locally, I know enough of the AEP guys to get it solved.
6768rogues
Banned
I would be sure you are not miss interpreting anything by looking again and/or having a knowledgeable inspector look at it. Then bring it up to the seller. If it is not corrected by them voluntarily, I would bring it to the attention of the utility provider. If they discover it, they could try to recover all estimated electricity costs from the time they assume it started stealing electricity. After being informed, the seller has to fix it or disclose it to all prospective buyers. I would not put my name on the deed without having it fixed first.
shelteredV
Well-known member
Like others have said- get someone over there that knows what the hell they're looking at before you call anybody. This should be a short discussion until you make that happen.
theamcguy
Well-known member
You want to blow up your deal by calling the whole world that's your business. Get an electrician there to inspect it. If it is truly an illegal hookup, get an estimate to make it right; add 25% for cost overruns. Make an offer and deduct the cost of making it right from your offer and explain why. Easy peasy it's an estate sale, people sell it as is. You won't be on the hook for any past stolen electricity as your name is not on the electric bill and you can show the electric company you put everything to code and keep the invoice from the electrician and the city/county inspection to show proof. Make sure you get a permit to do the electrical work, just do it all legal.
bczygan
Well-known member
Around here people only know how to make illegal hookups, not how to disconnect them!
Bill
Bill
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Let's see a picture of this custom hook up at the pole.
This. They may be able to go after the new owner regardless of whether or not they were responsible. I had a utility that legally held me responsible after closing on a new house. It got squared away, but they had the ability to do so. Prove that this isn't the case in your location instead of assuming it.
I bet if the PoCo was alerted and got out there, the first thing they would do is remove the tap. Then they could never go after the OP, who has not yet bought the property. After purchase, have an electrician wire the garage correctly off the legal feed. Adjust offer accordingly.
cbacres
Well-known member
I have nothing diffrent to add, just underscore a few key items.
A inspection and report by a electrician.
Make it a condition to your sale contract that this is addressed with PoCo before closing, no way I'd sign on the dotted line without the tap issue being front and center of discussions.
May not get anything deducted from sale price, just don't take on liability of illegal power.
Merry Christsmas
A inspection and report by a electrician.
Make it a condition to your sale contract that this is addressed with PoCo before closing, no way I'd sign on the dotted line without the tap issue being front and center of discussions.
May not get anything deducted from sale price, just don't take on liability of illegal power.
Merry Christsmas
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Rabid Badger
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OP, do they not require a building inspection as a part of the home buying process where you're from? If there's something funky with the electrical in that garage they'll inform you, the seller, the realtor and the lender; then you work out a solution.
The inspector will do a walkthrough with you after they complete their inspection and answer any questions you might have.
No need for any homeowner/power company/realtor drama before then.
The inspector will do a walkthrough with you after they complete their inspection and answer any questions you might have.
No need for any homeowner/power company/realtor drama before then.
Wow. 60 plus posts .
seems an easy solution to see if it's a concern or not. just too bad it's close to the holidays.
I think if you put the RE on official notice , they would act quickly on your behalf . and a clause added to the agreement of purchase/sale would be in order to secure it
seems an easy solution to see if it's a concern or not. just too bad it's close to the holidays.
I think if you put the RE on official notice , they would act quickly on your behalf . and a clause added to the agreement of purchase/sale would be in order to secure it
This line of thinking can be dangerous. In some cases, the liability may follow the property and the new owner, regardless. I've seen it and it was legal (I'm not saying I liked it or that it seems logical, but it WAS legal for the utility company to go after a new owner for a past owner's issue). Depends on the laws in the location. I'd prove that it can't happen in that location before assuming it can't.
Jim greengo
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redneckcharlie
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Holy cow, there’s some horrible advice in this thread. You would think there’s a scud missle parked in that property illegally. This is such an easy issue to address it’s not funny. Get a quote to have a service upgrade done and the necessary repairs to bring it up to code, assumimg it isn’t currently. Adjust your offer accordingly, assuming you still want the property. After you close, you put the service in your name. End of story, move on with life, and enjoy your new home. It is absolute nonsense that you assume any liabilty for a property you did not nor do not currently own. Your responsibility starts when you sign.
DpSyChO
Well-known member
Couple of things semi-related to this thread:
1. Back in 2008 when economy slumped we were looking at a house, a bank owned foreclosure. Made a offer that was contingent on the home inspection, our realtor put this clause in all her clients offers then let her clients decide if they actually wanted to get a home inspector, she said sometimes it seemed like the seller was more flexible on price with this clause in place. After a couple of offers/counter offers our offer was accepted on a Tuesday then Wednesday we took my mom by to show her the house we were trying to buy. We had left a message with home inspector already about setting up inspection. Showed my mom the house and saw someone had both pulled the top to the well and stole the well pump and broke into the house and stole the water heater since we had last looked at the house the Saturday prior, the location of the house in relation to the road made this easily possible. At first bank was like "oh well, that ***** (for you)" and thought the bid should still stand since the house was a foreclosure being sold "as is". We actually had a good realtor and she told them we were walking away because it was not in same condition as when we made the offer. At this time way more houses were being foreclosed on than sold so they finally agreed to deduct off of the offer what a local plumber would charge to install both a well pump and water heater back in since the two items were there when we made the offer but it was up to me to get two bids and to submit to the bank. I done that but then the home inspector pointed out several things we had not noticed so in the end we did walk away from it. OP- if you do still want this house despite the possible power issue and slack realtor and have not already made a bid.......at the very least have your realtor to make the offer contingent on there being "nothing illegal" so you can adjust your offer later if there is in fact something illegal going on.
2. A high school buddy used to be the guy to cut off your power if you didnt pay your bill. If he did not have any cutoffs that day he would do what they called "meter, transformer, and pole inspections" but was more or less looking for people stealing power. He has told me of several he found where the person was doing more or less exactly what the OP thinks may be going on. One in particular I remember the person had somehow had the heat pump tied in between the transformer and the meter, everything else in the house was run though the meter. He found it because even though they were not paying for power for the highest usage item they had, they still got pretty far behind on the bill and when he went to pull the meter the heat pump was still running after the meter was pulled. The co-op power he worked for looked back for your highest bill, then looked for when THEY thought you started stealing power. They back charged you the same as the highest bill you had ever had since you had service starting at the date THEY thought you started stealing power.........When you went to court it was up to you to prove when you started stealing power and that you were not using as much power as they had proof you had once used. Since neither the house or power bill is in OP's name, he does not have to worry about power company coming after him for anything later on but if I was in his shoes I would want a third party electrical contractor to look at it before purchasing the house as others have mentioned.
1. Back in 2008 when economy slumped we were looking at a house, a bank owned foreclosure. Made a offer that was contingent on the home inspection, our realtor put this clause in all her clients offers then let her clients decide if they actually wanted to get a home inspector, she said sometimes it seemed like the seller was more flexible on price with this clause in place. After a couple of offers/counter offers our offer was accepted on a Tuesday then Wednesday we took my mom by to show her the house we were trying to buy. We had left a message with home inspector already about setting up inspection. Showed my mom the house and saw someone had both pulled the top to the well and stole the well pump and broke into the house and stole the water heater since we had last looked at the house the Saturday prior, the location of the house in relation to the road made this easily possible. At first bank was like "oh well, that ***** (for you)" and thought the bid should still stand since the house was a foreclosure being sold "as is". We actually had a good realtor and she told them we were walking away because it was not in same condition as when we made the offer. At this time way more houses were being foreclosed on than sold so they finally agreed to deduct off of the offer what a local plumber would charge to install both a well pump and water heater back in since the two items were there when we made the offer but it was up to me to get two bids and to submit to the bank. I done that but then the home inspector pointed out several things we had not noticed so in the end we did walk away from it. OP- if you do still want this house despite the possible power issue and slack realtor and have not already made a bid.......at the very least have your realtor to make the offer contingent on there being "nothing illegal" so you can adjust your offer later if there is in fact something illegal going on.
2. A high school buddy used to be the guy to cut off your power if you didnt pay your bill. If he did not have any cutoffs that day he would do what they called "meter, transformer, and pole inspections" but was more or less looking for people stealing power. He has told me of several he found where the person was doing more or less exactly what the OP thinks may be going on. One in particular I remember the person had somehow had the heat pump tied in between the transformer and the meter, everything else in the house was run though the meter. He found it because even though they were not paying for power for the highest usage item they had, they still got pretty far behind on the bill and when he went to pull the meter the heat pump was still running after the meter was pulled. The co-op power he worked for looked back for your highest bill, then looked for when THEY thought you started stealing power. They back charged you the same as the highest bill you had ever had since you had service starting at the date THEY thought you started stealing power.........When you went to court it was up to you to prove when you started stealing power and that you were not using as much power as they had proof you had once used. Since neither the house or power bill is in OP's name, he does not have to worry about power company coming after him for anything later on but if I was in his shoes I would want a third party electrical contractor to look at it before purchasing the house as others have mentioned.
James-W
Well-known member
Perhaps "right" isn't the correct term to use, but just off hand I can't think of a better term for it. I mean, if I were buying the home I would want to know certain things about the home before I would even consider buying it. I would want to know what the average cost for heating the home was. I would want to know the average electric bill. I would want to know what the property taxes are. I would want to know what the current owner was paying for home owners insurance. Things like this would be important to me because I would like to be aware of exactly what I am getting into and approximately how much it is going to cost me every month. Whether I have the legal right to see things like this or not, I don't know, but I can tell you straight out that if I don't see them I am not buying the house.
I don't think anyone is saying you are liable if you never own it, but the second you do own it, it is POSSIBLE to be responsible for a previous owners issues. I've seen it. I've seen a title company miss it. Sure, title insurance may help clear it up. All I'm saying is assuming that you are liability free because the last owner did it, not you, may not be correct. Maybe it is correct. Depends.
Example from the city of Minneapolis regarding water service (many other examples can be found, this is just one. I've seen things like this missed by everyone before closing) :
What is a Service Address Lien?
This is the unpaid amount owing from previous bill payer(s) at this service address. This amount remains with the service address property according to state statutes and city ordinances. The City may assess this amount to property taxes.
Why does the water bill stay with the property when the property is sold?
In Minneapolis, as well as with many cities across the nation, unpaid amounts owed by a previous bill payer at a service address (a lien balance) remain with the property, and the new owner of that property is responsible for those charges. This is in accordance with state and city laws.
When you sell a property the realtor, buyer, or seller contacts Treasury Operations. The city reads the meter and sends a final bill to the occupant. The previous owner pays the bill or it is negotiated at the closing. The title insurance company involved with the sale might also be contacted as they sometimes check with utilities to make sure no outstanding debts are attached to the property. If there is a dispute, the new owner may be able to take legal action against the previous owner for non-payment. In most cases, this can be done through conciliation court.
The new owner is ultimately responsible for resolving the situation. Water service will not be turned off because of the former owner's outstanding debt. However, service can be discontinued if you fail to pay charges that you incur. If you cannot pay the full delinquent balance, an installment agreement may be set up.
If you can't negotiate a satisfactory installment agreement, the lien balance from the previous owner may be added to your property taxes.
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You're saying if the property is bought after being brought into compliance, the new owner is liable for the non-compliance that was in place prior to the sale? I'm not buying it.
The only way this makes sense is if the power company has an inchoate lien based on unbilled service. This would follow the home regardless of ownership. If such a lien exists is a matter of state law. It may or may not be covered by a title insurance policy, but I’d expect such liens to be excluded in the fine print since they are essentially unidentifiable.
I do agree that there is a ton of bad advice in this discussion. The internet is like a bar, very late at night, when it comes to getting legal advice.
Honestly, I didn't say anything about whether or not it was brought into compliance or when. From the origional post, it is currently isn't.
My point is that there is a bunch of homework to do, and assuming things based on gut feel or what people on the internet feel can be dangerous. I provided an example, from the city of Minneapolis website (not his city, just an example), where the next owner would be liable for a previous owners issue to show that things aren't always that simple. That's my point.
Maybe he's fine, maybe not. That's for him to figure out (not assume or take our word for it). I think it is reasonable advice to state that more work is necessary based on these other utility examples vs. simply a "you're fine" or "you're not fine" based on our gut feel. It could be complicated. It could be simple. Assuming either isn't probably a great path.
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manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This really makes my head hurt....
buy the house and before you transfer the electric in your name tell the power company about it.
They will disconnect it if it real and you will still have power to the garage. via the meter line.
I suspect the feed comes from the house, unless the PO died from electrocution or OD.
They will disconnect it if it real and you will still have power to the garage. via the meter line.
I suspect the feed comes from the house, unless the PO died from electrocution or OD.
rjn2649
Well-known member
This is in IL, not sure where you're at, had a similar thing happen to a friend of mine I was helping...It seems you are able to tell it is an illegal hook up. I would call the power company report it. They may want to cut the power to the entire property, YES even the legal hooked up side of things.
Then to get it re-connected guess what? EVERYTHING had to be checked and brought up to code, it was a nightmare.
I would check with a local contractor that understands how to deal with rehabbing and code violations. Pay for their time to consult if you have to.
The realtor? F her call her boss, get rude w/her if you have to SHE WORKS FOR YOU.
Then to get it re-connected guess what? EVERYTHING had to be checked and brought up to code, it was a nightmare.
I would check with a local contractor that understands how to deal with rehabbing and code violations. Pay for their time to consult if you have to.
The realtor? F her call her boss, get rude w/her if you have to SHE WORKS FOR YOU.
1Garageman
Well-known member
Makes me wonder what else the previous owner has done to the house??
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
This is a real estate deal.
Require an electrical inspection by a professional and repairs by the seller
OR
$2000 credit for "bringing electrical service up to code"
Require an electrical inspection by a professional and repairs by the seller
OR
$2000 credit for "bringing electrical service up to code"
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