I only have 100 amp service run to my shop. Long story short, I couldnt put a pole in the ground and I couldnt get approved for a disconnect. It is what it is. I dont run mills and lathes out there while running 6 hair dryers at the same time. I have all LED lighting out there. I can put the 220 plug for welding close to the breaker panel. Thats not any problem. Welding 1/8 steel and 1/8 aluminum is the plan. What amp breaker and wire size should I make sure I have. Ill get an electrician over I just want to make sure Ive got the right stuff going in. Thanks for any advice guys.
Tig welder and amp draw...
- Thread starter mopar92
- Start date
sberry
Banned
I wanna haul some bricks, what tires should I put on my truck.
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post. I’m a bit overwhelmed with your utter knowledge and raw science behind your answer. I’m asking because I don’t know a lot about 220 and wiring 220. Anytime I’ve welded with 220, I’ve just used the machine. What questions do I need to ask? Hell I came on here because I don’t know. Please do not reply. This is for grown men who are not assholes to reply to. So please, you’ve said enough.
sberry
Banned
Wouldnt you think it might be helpful to include the machine you intend to run?
I read your post and didn't understand a thing. What are you trying to do and what is the question?
If you don't have a clear question how can you expect a clear answer?
rburke65
Well-known member
Yes, photo of the name plate of the “machine” would be help. If not then run big wires.
I guess I didn’t know it was a complicated question. I have a shop that’s only got 100 amp service for a while. I want to wire up a welder only dedicated 220 plug. I want to be able to safely run a Tig welder. I am looking at an Alpha AHP as I am just a hobby welder. I just want to make sure the electrician and I are on the same page as to what will be wired up. Thanks for the help. I do not have the welder yet.
You need to at least decide how big of a welder you are looking for. A 50A plug will run the majority of welders that might get used in a home shop, but without any idea what you will get that is a GUESS at best. Also a 100A service is plenty of power for 99% of home shops.
Looking at the AHP Alpha Tig. I believe their website shows this...
Output Power Type:
DC/AC
Rated Electrical Input:
110v / 240v 50/60 Hz
Minimum Amp Start On DC/AC:
10A/20A
TIG(GTAW) Amps/Volts @ Duty Cycle:
200 A, 20 V @ 60% 200 A, 18 V @ 60%
TIG Open Circuit Voltage (OCV):
No
STICK (SMAW) Amps/Volts @ Duty Cycle:
200 A, 28 V @ 35% 155A, 26.4 V @ 100%
STICK Open Circuit Voltage (OCV):
No
Input Amps MAX Inrush And Running Amps 220v:
43A / 33A @220V MMA 28A/22A@220V TIG
Input Amps MAX Running Amps 110v:
36 A/ 29A @110V TIG 46A/37A@ 110V MMA
Foot Pedal:
YES
Anti Stick Control:
YES
HF Start TIG:
YES
2T/4T Torch Trigger Panel Control:
YES
Start Amps(2t/4t Trigger Function):
10-200AMPS
End Amps(2t/4t Trigger Function):
10-200AMPS
Post Flow (GAS):
0-10 SECONDS
AC Balance Control:
-5 to +5 AC FREQUENCY RANGE FROM 40-200HZ
Pulse Frequency Range:
5 to 5HZ
Pulse Amp Control:
10 - 200 WELDING AMPS
Pulse Time ON (Width):
10-90% OF PULSE CYCLE
Weight: 50 lb
Dimensions: 20 in × 9 in × 22 in
Output Power Type:
DC/AC
Rated Electrical Input:
110v / 240v 50/60 Hz
Minimum Amp Start On DC/AC:
10A/20A
TIG(GTAW) Amps/Volts @ Duty Cycle:
200 A, 20 V @ 60% 200 A, 18 V @ 60%
TIG Open Circuit Voltage (OCV):
No
STICK (SMAW) Amps/Volts @ Duty Cycle:
200 A, 28 V @ 35% 155A, 26.4 V @ 100%
STICK Open Circuit Voltage (OCV):
No
Input Amps MAX Inrush And Running Amps 220v:
43A / 33A @220V MMA 28A/22A@220V TIG
Input Amps MAX Running Amps 110v:
36 A/ 29A @110V TIG 46A/37A@ 110V MMA
Foot Pedal:
YES
Anti Stick Control:
YES
HF Start TIG:
YES
2T/4T Torch Trigger Panel Control:
YES
Start Amps(2t/4t Trigger Function):
10-200AMPS
End Amps(2t/4t Trigger Function):
10-200AMPS
Post Flow (GAS):
0-10 SECONDS
AC Balance Control:
-5 to +5 AC FREQUENCY RANGE FROM 40-200HZ
Pulse Frequency Range:
5 to 5HZ
Pulse Amp Control:
10 - 200 WELDING AMPS
Pulse Time ON (Width):
10-90% OF PULSE CYCLE
Weight: 50 lb
Dimensions: 20 in × 9 in × 22 in
blazemaster83
Well-known member
I use a standard 50 amp receptacle and breaker from a stove setup for my tig welder, a miller dialarc HF. I weld stainless, steel, aluminum of all thicknesses. I've never tripped the breaker even on the high setting (85-295amps)
sberry
Banned
I would have guessed the dvi were 30a machines but it looks like it's a 50. Needs 8 cable pr 10 in pipe and 50a. Does it come cord and plug?
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bczygan
Well-known member
Your answer is in here:
Input Amps MAX Inrush And Running Amps 220v:
43A / 33A @220V MMA 28A/22A@220V TIG
They call it 220 but it is really 240V.
From what they show, for stick, I'd provide a 30A circuit.
For TIG a 20A circuit would do.
But look at what it says. Their amps are for max inrush and then running amps. And this is at the highest settings.
So if I was going to use both stick and TIG, I'd provide a 30A circuit.
I just bought the same welder, by the way. I'm running TIG off a 20A 120V circuit. It goes up to 140A output on 120V.
You will LOVE the welder, it's awesome! Watch a bunch of YouTube videos on it.
And put your location in your info.
Bill
Input Amps MAX Inrush And Running Amps 220v:
43A / 33A @220V MMA 28A/22A@220V TIG
They call it 220 but it is really 240V.
From what they show, for stick, I'd provide a 30A circuit.
For TIG a 20A circuit would do.
But look at what it says. Their amps are for max inrush and then running amps. And this is at the highest settings.
So if I was going to use both stick and TIG, I'd provide a 30A circuit.
I just bought the same welder, by the way. I'm running TIG off a 20A 120V circuit. It goes up to 140A output on 120V.
You will LOVE the welder, it's awesome! Watch a bunch of YouTube videos on it.
And put your location in your info.
Bill
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sberry
Banned
It shows 33 draw, why would you put it 30? If I reaf it right its also got a 35% duty. Its got quite a bit of power. More than a new 200 Synch which appears rather anemic. Quite a machine for a grand.
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I share your same concern. Let a plug be a plug and power it accordingly.
But there are circumstances for dedicated welding circuits... I don’t like it but, but it’s difficult to argue.
This is where others chime in with good information. A dedicated welding circuit is allowed to cheap out under the code. Based on their built in service duty.
A welding circuit is permitted to have a bigger breaker that has it an ability to fry the lines there after. The lines should be put in metal conduit. This allows for a good short circuit with good proper grounding.
My problem with the whole situation is somebody moves out and the next person moves in thinking they have a true breaker protected line/circuit. Properly wired everything trips and the fire is contained. Example. One guy moves out in the next guy wants to put a 7200 W heater on the line/Circuit. He assumes since it has a 50a breaker and a 6-50 there after but there was a half *** 12 gauge wire run between not properly shielded or run to code. The same guy lets his family plug-in to his 6-50 well they’re camping for the weekend in their motorhome well they’re running their big rooftop air conditioning unit... or the same guy plugs in a 5 hp tablesaw...
My next problem is who has still 220 V in their home/residential property??? This is like saying I bought gas for $2.20 when I really bought it for $2.40!
Put a Test metre on what you really are getting, and give me the facts. You should know longer have 220 V. You should be on a split phase that is 60 Hz 120 V +-(+-5%). This means you should have a low of 228 v and a high of 252, but you’re mean voltage should be close to 240.
The op seems to be building a dream shop. Fair questions are fair questions with validation!
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Is a welding circuit not different then a 50 amp plug that can accept a welder plug? Also the same as other stuff such as temporary heaters or whatever else. So being wired with a 50 amp plug and running a 50 amp breaker it’s technically another circuit that must have proper sized wire for the breaker.... unless I’m misreading your post
A welding circuit is a special application circuit. Most welders have a duty cycle... which means they will shut off there their own draw let’s say 35% of the time every 5 minutes (or 10 minutes). This allows people to cheap out on the feed wire. The machines circuitry should/will not allow you to use it above the manufacturers specifications. So, you can over amp the powerline after the breaker as the machine should limit melt down sheathing points of the feed wire.
A Household 240 V circuit, 2 space breaker will hold overload 6 to 8 times for about 10 seconds. These are motor circuit’s generally.
A welder is a lot like a variable heater or toaster. It can have a huge in rush, and can have a stable High-peak. But... it is suppose to shut it self down to let lines cool. This makes it a special application under circuit applications.
Think about it like a Electric heater that has a gas pedal. You can use the gas pedal all day long at 100%. But at 175% the machine/vehicle cut itself off from the power source for 65% of the time.
It’s like adding a turbo to your car. If you want a sudden boost, it’s there for a few minutes. Then it is gone.
A 12 gauge wire that is rated for 20 A has a sheath that is temperature related. When you’re pulling triple the amperage for more than one minute, the sheath has a temperature rating. I usually install motors and feed lines with SOOW and not SJOOW.
I am more of a motor guy, so I don’t like to come across these circuits too often. But I am aware.
I will use a higher temperature rating wire with a higher voltage ratings.
The dozen or so welding circuits that I have installed (which are usually need a certified electrician) and a final electrical inspector to sign off on.... electrically things are getting more difficult permit wise for residential which I totally support. I’m OK.. somewhat with guys doing their own electrical...but don’t like guys doing electrical for somebody else, unprofessional or uninsured. It bothers me, that I have to pull two permits to do it. Installing a simple air compressor and saying the circuit you have doesn’t jive.
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sberry
Banned
Millions of welder circuits have been installed by master electricians under legal codes for decades. Makes one wonder how these dumb asses ever did it without nutning the place down being the cheapskates they are till some amateurs come along and figure out that they been doing it wrong and gonna burn their houses down.
Hot Rod Grampa
Well-known member
So now that you are thoroughly confused, you can see there are two different schools of thought on powering a welder outlet. Some say only use the minimum wire yet maximum breaker based on the model welder you will be using, and don't worry about the future when or if you buy a bigger welder and find out the cheap wire is now inadequate. The rest of us believe if you have a 50 amp outlet, for a welder, feed it with 50 amp wire, a 50 amp breaker and never think about it again. Done. Your shop, you choose. I have wired welders many times and only in one high end welding facility did we ever use 10 wire on welding outlets. It was a prototype facility where the machine was dedicated to a very specific job at a given location, and the wire was in conduit, protected by fuses, and the runs were 10 to 12 feet long. There the 10 wire was safe, in my opinion, and the disconnect was clearly labeled.
bczygan
Well-known member
It's 35% duty cycle at the full 200A for stick, but goes 100% duty cycle at 155A.
For TIG it is 60% duty cycle at 200A.
Great machine for the price.
If you pre-order when they are out of stock, the price is $750 plus $30 shipping.
If they have stock, the price is $800 plus $30 shipping.
Bill
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The OP was dinged for calling 240V service 220. It might be more helpful to explain why vs just being critical that sometime used an older term. This also applies when someone refers to a 110 outlet.
OP, I don't remember the exact history but several things come into play. First, is that over time the unloaded line voltage on the US wasn't perfectly standardized so some places were something like 115v vs 120v. There is a tolerance allowed even today and I think it's around 5% but I'm sure others here can tell you the exact nominal and tolerance.
Second thing is the loaded voltage. When you draw a heavy line load the voltage drops. Before redoing the power to my garage the unloaded voltage was something like 123V. When I ran my roofing compressor the voltage dropped to around 114V. You will see many things like larger motors specifying 230V amp draw. The 230v vs 240v difference is because the line voltage into the motor when running is expected to be 230. Hope that helps. It's helpful when people explain a bit why "220" is no longer correct (even if we do understand when is meant).
OP, I don't remember the exact history but several things come into play. First, is that over time the unloaded line voltage on the US wasn't perfectly standardized so some places were something like 115v vs 120v. There is a tolerance allowed even today and I think it's around 5% but I'm sure others here can tell you the exact nominal and tolerance.
Second thing is the loaded voltage. When you draw a heavy line load the voltage drops. Before redoing the power to my garage the unloaded voltage was something like 123V. When I ran my roofing compressor the voltage dropped to around 114V. You will see many things like larger motors specifying 230V amp draw. The 230v vs 240v difference is because the line voltage into the motor when running is expected to be 230. Hope that helps. It's helpful when people explain a bit why "220" is no longer correct (even if we do understand when is meant).
I know how a welder works.
My point was how do you call a circuit with a 50 amp plug in it just a welding circuit and get away with undersized wire for the breaker? If the welder can be unplugged it isn’t a dedicated circuit. It’s also ridiculous to buy a 50 amp breaker and skimp on the wire for the small added cost.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You label it "for welder use only". Believe it or not, but there are ways to do things that you may never have seen before. Crazy, huh?
My next problem is who has still 220 V in their home/residential property??? This is like saying I bought gas for $2.20 when I really bought it for $2.40!
Put a Test metre on what you really are getting, and give me the facts. You should know longer have 220 V. You should be on a split phase that is 60 Hz 120 V +-(+-5%). This means you should have a low of 228 v and a high of 252, but you’re mean voltage should be close to 240.
The op seems to be building a dream shop. Fair questions are fair questions with validation![/QUOTE]
Its not my dream garage because it didn’t cost $500000 to build. Its a 48x64 that I’m proud of. That’s what matters I guess. 220/240... whatever. I didn’t get on to you for your poor grammar. Not sure if we are joking on this forum or just that many seem to be smart asses. I swear I just came here to ask a question. Then I get picked apart. No wonder web forums are dying off.
Put a Test metre on what you really are getting, and give me the facts. You should know longer have 220 V. You should be on a split phase that is 60 Hz 120 V +-(+-5%). This means you should have a low of 228 v and a high of 252, but you’re mean voltage should be close to 240.
The op seems to be building a dream shop. Fair questions are fair questions with validation![/QUOTE]
Its not my dream garage because it didn’t cost $500000 to build. Its a 48x64 that I’m proud of. That’s what matters I guess. 220/240... whatever. I didn’t get on to you for your poor grammar. Not sure if we are joking on this forum or just that many seem to be smart asses. I swear I just came here to ask a question. Then I get picked apart. No wonder web forums are dying off.
sberry
Banned
No one here is advocating the minimum. We point out what it is and why. I have never used 14 wire on one. But to insist that someone must use 6 or they will burn the place down is not correct either. There is a reason all the experts allow it. There is 100 years of forensics behind it. Lots of code cycles and improvements.
There is a difference between thinking we know how something works and actually knowing it. A 225 buzzer doesnt have any additional internal thermal, lots of equipment doesnt or its limited to vertain components. Most dedicated circuits do not rely on the breaker to thermal protect the incoming wire or the cord. Hence you can use a 16 cord with a 15a end on a 20a circuit.
There is a difference between thinking we know how something works and actually knowing it. A 225 buzzer doesnt have any additional internal thermal, lots of equipment doesnt or its limited to vertain components. Most dedicated circuits do not rely on the breaker to thermal protect the incoming wire or the cord. Hence you can use a 16 cord with a 15a end on a 20a circuit.
I never said anything would burn down either.
My question was how does a circuit with a 50 amp plug become a dedicated welder circuit when it can easily be unplugged and have another device plugged in.
My question is an honest one. I am curious to know. Not on the side of how the science with a machine works but on the side of how code allows.
I’m not saying #10 won’t take the load. My suggestion on that end is why try save a few extra dollars.
sberry
Banned
It seems a major reason to raise the nominal voltage was for efficiency and to allow increasef load with the same wire. A buzzer welder draws 3 or 4 amps less than it did when it was 220 and utilities didnt have to replace a lot of service wire when it became common to upgrade from 60 to 100a service and they often use the same wire for 200 that they did for 100.
The pico recently liad tested a line we had a provlem with. It had a long line of service on it, long ways from the ****** and at 130a less than a volt drop which really surprised me. I really thought we would see some sag.
The pico recently liad tested a line we had a provlem with. It had a long line of service on it, long ways from the ****** and at 130a less than a volt drop which really surprised me. I really thought we would see some sag.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
It becomes a welder only circuit by labeling it.
cbacres
Well-known member
OP, sounds like your existing 100 amps will power the welder you want to buy just fine. You have a pretty nice size shop, and we don't know what else you're running.
I have 100 amp on mine and I run a 252 miller wide open at times, ran a miller 330 stick machine ( this is a 95 amp machine)high a few times and never had a issue. True, it's just me on one machine and minumun load elsewhere while I'm welding.
My extension cord for my welders is #8, never a issue. You mentioned your plug could be close to panel, so you f you had any concerns, just wire with #6, but running 8 is just fine. Having been around electrians, I've been aware of this code for years and never thought twice about it.
Post up your new welder when you get it, sounds like a nice unit.
I could only wish I bought a house with a shop that there was a outlet labeled for welders!
I have 100 amp on mine and I run a 252 miller wide open at times, ran a miller 330 stick machine ( this is a 95 amp machine)high a few times and never had a issue. True, it's just me on one machine and minumun load elsewhere while I'm welding.
My extension cord for my welders is #8, never a issue. You mentioned your plug could be close to panel, so you f you had any concerns, just wire with #6, but running 8 is just fine. Having been around electrians, I've been aware of this code for years and never thought twice about it.
Post up your new welder when you get it, sounds like a nice unit.
I could only wish I bought a house with a shop that there was a outlet labeled for welders!
I don't know how you are going to be working, but I would suggest that you look at how you will be dealing with you welder. I have one corner of my shop where I have 50A plug and it is set up for metal working. Kitty corner from that spot I have a 50A plug by the big door so I can weld out on the apron. If I had only that one plug in the back, I'd be stuck having to drag all of my "friends" projects to that back corner to take care of. You will want the flexibility of location
astroracer
Well-known member
100 amps is more then enough to have a full machine shop if you are working alone most of the time. My fab shop has had 100 amps for 33 years and I have never popped a breaker in the main panel. Just sayin'...
mark
mark
sberry
Banned
its because very few other devices use that end. There is some factor built in. U am not super familiar with heaters but I think some portable could cone 30A and there are no exceptions for the 30 circuit/recept. Most of the heaters in the catalog I see say,, not for portable use and do not come factory cord.
There could be other things come with a 6/50 end but I dont own a piece, have never installed one factory. That recept is only rsted to 3 hp, if an installed followed that rule hasnt hooked a compressor to it thst would overheat a 12 thhn or a 10 cable which is the minimum wire for 50 outlet.
The only thing that can legally be (pretty much) installed is a 250 wire feed and even them only a couple models require 8 which is why welder cprds come 8.
I have ran buzzers connected by 10 cable till they were glowing and barely warms a wire, most of the time cant tell. I ran my 250 feeder a while back on 10 cord, steady 30 minutes, couldnt feel it.
I ask fire investigators at conference, they ever see a fire from this or comp wire,,,, never.
Under most codes a circuit is built up of breaker, wire, wiring devices/outlet. Under most circumstances the wiring devices/outlet is allowed to be bigger than the rest of the circuit, as it is protecting itself and the building it is in.
Most older stove outlets were a 6-50 and they only had eight gauge wire. The wall mount wiring devices/outlet could handle 50 A. The breaker was 40 A sized to the internal wiring.
Now a lot of stoves have 14–50 wiring device/outlet. The breaker size is most often still 40 A with eight gauge wire.
If you run six gauge wire from a 50 amp breaker to a wiring devices/outlet 6-50 or 14-50 The wire is actually 10%ish oversized(copper). Aluminum I am assuming we’re not discussing.
In all circumstances (except for welding circuits,)the breaker needs to be adequately sized to the building wire.
Some heat treat ovens come with A wiring devices plug 6-50 and some shop heaters come with the same line device.
I personally do not advocate using smaller wire to get you by on a welding circuit. I feel if you’re putting in a 50 amp breaker, put in six gauge wire. If you’re putting in a 40 amp breaker put in eight gauge wire. If you’re putting in a 30 amp breaker put in 10 gauge wire and change your wiring device to 6–30 or 14–30.
I do a fair bit of TIG tool welding in my residential Machine shop. Attached building. I have four different circuits from the main powering the same shop. Hopefully one day I’ll pull the fifth to isolate lighting from the main.
Here are some more food for thought. I only have a 55 kVA transformer feeding myself and four other neighbours. I get one neighbour that knows what I’m doing, asking if I was pulling A lot of power during the night. They saw their lights dim for a few seconds a couple times. Yep that was me. I’m still running a low volume machine/pattern/wood shop in a residential area. I’m not an angel at any means. My code specifically says to a Teee...”No Outlet is allowed to have more than 150 V to ground disbursed... in residential. oops... I have a at least a half dozen 600 V machines.
I also have about a half dozen machines running on pulse wave modulation (or VFD)... but that’s another story.... nobody realizes how easy it is to put out of date, industrial equipment that is three-phase into a residential situation. Clickety click Barbara trick.
I am now a professional educator with shops on the side. I personally wish our youth were willing to learn A task. I am completely saddened that are today’s youth does not even know how to use a handrail! But they can show you how to use the next gaming system on daddy‘s iPad. Sorry for the rant.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
no older range circuits used 10-50. ovens were 10-30 unless very large.
and #8 THWN is good for 50a so need to specify wire type
Nice snipe! What is your opinion for the OP?? Please be helpful!
Until what year? I believe THWN has only been around for 40-50-ish Years. So are you saying anything prior to 1975 might not have THWN? As a stove cable?
In your professional opinion where in buildings you have worked on, what is the stove cable prior to early 70s and they’re on? Still THWN? The last two buildings I did minor demolition on, that were late 1960s builds had Tar sheath.
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sberry
Banned
Heaters really dont have inrush. I am willing to learn, I would look if someone posted up equipment that comes with 6-50.
Very few circuits other than generals with multiple outlets does the breaker protect the wire for thermal. It does on panel feeds, it does to some extent on a range but a range is a collection of 12 appliance wire tied to a number 6 cord. Even on range its not teally for thermal, that is the applied load like the internal wire is, it's there for short circuit.
If you are using too small a wire to a range it needs smaller breaker to provide thermal overload.
Very few circuits other than generals with multiple outlets does the breaker protect the wire for thermal. It does on panel feeds, it does to some extent on a range but a range is a collection of 12 appliance wire tied to a number 6 cord. Even on range its not teally for thermal, that is the applied load like the internal wire is, it's there for short circuit.
If you are using too small a wire to a range it needs smaller breaker to provide thermal overload.
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