Caution to home buyers

[McFarmer]

So our daughter bought a house in town for herself and two kids. Guy who sold it bought it to flip, nothing wrong with that. She had a home inspection.

We’ve found several shortcuts he took, nothing serious until now. He put an electric heat pump furnace in it. Not keeping up at 5 below, expected to get to 30 below tonight. Runs continuously and temp is falling.

Plumbing and heating guy was out this morning and said everything is working fine, furnace is simply undersized.

Looks like home inspector might have caught that ? Installer might have said something ? I’ve never been around an electric furnace before.

Just something to check before you buy.

 

[SickSpeedMonte]

Does the compressor keep running? The grid heater should take over when the heat pump can't keep up. That's controlled by the thermostat.

 

[oledude1952]

Sorry to read, but it happens everyday. Few home inspectors hold a current license in any trade. They may have used to though in one trade or the other. As a HI, they just have a good "general" knowledge of the workings in a home.

And most every HI report will have a disclaimer on their report, stating they are not liable for anything happening or being faulty on the property...post inspection.


So in anyone's case of hiring a HI, expecting them to "size" up a homes HVAC load, electrical load, water usage load, heat loss etc...to see if they are adequate is expecting too much of them. They just turn the water on, run the heat and ac to see if it works. And never stay long enough in very hot or cold temps probably, to see if any system will pass the "added" load tests.

Only a individually hired expert in these fields/trades can give the prospective buyer these unknowns about a property, they may be making an offer on.

And if a person want this much specific information about a home, they will have to pay an independent contractor to get it for them. JMO

 

[bored350]

More details please. This is a heat pump + electric furnace or just electric furnace? What size is it vs. what size do you think it should be? Where is the house located or what zone? Was the insulation up to code?

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[yeldogt]

Even the best split systems go to about 5f ... the best mini splits are -5. There is a big difference between operating at those temps and delivering full output at those temps.

any house with the possibility of -30 should have a furnace. even with resistance -- its not going to keep up.

 

[nsula_country]

So our daughter bought a house in town for herself and two kids. Guy who sold it bought it to flip, nothing wrong with that. She had a home inspection.

We’ve found several shortcuts he took, nothing serious until now. He put an electric heat pump furnace in it. Not keeping up at 5 below, expected to get to 30 below tonight. Runs continuously and temp is falling.

Plumbing and heating guy was out this morning and said everything is working fine, furnace is simply undersized.

Looks like home inspector might have caught that ? Installer might have said something ? I’ve never been around an electric furnace before.

Just something to check before you buy.

Need 2 simple questions answered.

Where is the house located?

How size is the house and its construction?

I can understand the heat pump hits a wall in the teens. That's why there should be electric resistive heat as a backup.

Electric heat "may" not be set up as a stage with the thermostat "heat" setting. If there is a mode called "aux heat" or "emrg heat" try that. That will call for electric heat only. Should have a 7.5kw-20kw heat strip depending on size of air handler and space.

When Plumbing/Heating guy came out and said it was undersized for heating, did they mention it was the heat pump, electric resistive, or both?

Electric heat upgrade is super easy, may involve pulling new or additional wire for 2nd circuit. Heat strip alone is under $200 for the kit. Comes in many kw options.

 

[JRC3]

He said the furnace is undersized. Even if it has a full electric backup it won't keep up if it isn't big enough.


Keep in mind, if the seller has done some shortcuts and work himself, be concerned where she might plug in any space heaters. Joe-blow tends to make loose electrical connections...And even worse, sometimes just covers them with sheetrock dangling in walls or laying in attics or floor spaces.

 

[CoogarXR]

The first "real" house we bought was built in 1916, and had no insulation whatsoever. None in the attic, none in the walls, and original single-pane 1916 windows. We had a home inspection done, and the furnace was newer, and of course, it passed.

It would never keep up though. It ran continually.

As was mentioned, the home inspector will just assume it's sized right. He (in our case, an probably in most cases) only checks to see if it works, checks the exhaust, checks for CO leaks, duct temperature, etc. He's not going to check for adequate BTU calculations.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Before I installed my underfloor radiant heat system in my "open concept" house we had just a Vermont Castings propane fired direct vent gas woodstove sort of like this in our living room. We still use it even though it is only about 30K BTUs. Works great in a power failure also. Having good insulation also really helps. We don't have natural gas service.

 

[LXCam]

So the contractor based that comment on what, the fact it can't keep up. nsula I think hit the nail on the head. It's an old place, could be it needs to be properly insulated and maybe more importantly sealed. She might consider as a quick solution using a hot glue gun to seal all the windows for now, at least that stuff can be peeled off once it warms up. Also get some door foam seals up and upgraded door sweeps installed. Simple little things like that sometimes go a long ways.

Then again, maybe its undersized.

 

[scooterboy]

Until the weather breaks, get some extra blankets to keep warm at night and let the water trickle. Sounds like she will need to get this house insulated the best it can be and get a professional to install the proper size furnace ASAP!

She can cover the windows with movers pads they will keep out the cold. They won't look good but will help with saving heat. I know we used them many years ago when we needed to keep the cold out.

 

[McFarmer]

Just got back from picking up the kids so she can go to work.

Not an old house, 1980s sometime. The main elements are working, the heat pump part isn’t a factor at 5 below. She put a new filter in in June, after she moved in. I picked up a new one from the shop and we put it in.

Temp rise at the elements checked OK, it was tripping the elements off with the old filter. Furnace guy said it’s small enough it most likely won’t shut off and will struggle tonight when it gets to 30 below, 58 below with wind chill.

Don’t know the BTUs, didn’t ask. Anyway, the previous owner put the furnace in, most likely thought it would be big enough. Probably not that uncommon.

We farmers have a well deserved reputation of making everything heavier and bigger than needed.

 

[vavet]

Even a simple sheet of plastic to seal around the window opening will create an air barrier.
I'm not a proponent of home inspectors as a whole. Too many of them don't know what they're doing and are simply following a checklist.
There are ways to blow insulation into wall cavities. It's unfortunate that she's in this situation.

 

[nsula_country]

Just got back from picking up the kids so she can go to work.

Not an old house, 1980s sometime. The main elements are working, the heat pump part isn’t a factor at 5 below. She put a new filter in in June, after she moved in. I picked up a new one from the shop and we put it in.

Temp rise at the elements checked OK, it was tripping the elements off with the old filter. Furnace guy said it’s small enough it most likely won’t shut off and will struggle tonight when it gets to 30 below, 58 below with wind chill.

Don’t know the BTUs, didn’t ask. Anyway, the previous owner put the furnace in, most likely thought it would be big enough. Probably not that uncommon.

We farmers have a well deserved reputation of making everything heavier and bigger than needed.

Good find. Plugged filter reduced air flow and was causing high limit switch to cut out resistive. Lesson learned, filter cannot make it 7 months!

I tell my tenants to change the filters when they pay the rent (mortgage)...

CT

 

[JRC3]

She put a new filter in in June, after she moved in. I picked up a new one from the shop and we put it in... it was tripping the elements off with the old filter.

The most basic and probably the most common cause of forced air HVAC problems.

Even though it's undersized I bet now it keeps up enough to keep it tolerable. I'd go buy her a case of filters, now she knows the importance of replacing them regularly.

 

[McFarmer]

Thanks for the suggestions, hopefully it keeps up. The filter is one of those five inch thick jobs.

Now I’m hoping her radiator doesn’t freeze if it hits -30 when she goes to work tomorrow morning. I told her to watch the temp gauge so it doesn’t overheat. She looked at me like I was out of my mind.

Most likely that’s about where the mix is at.

 

[hangfirew8]

If you can't rent a thermal imager just get a cheap laser temp gun and shoot every outer wall and corner every square foot or so. Do it on a really cold day.

70's/80's houses are infamous for having fiberglass insulation fall down between the studs and leave big gaps. Settling will expose cracks and then you can feel the refreshing breeze inside.

A drill and Great Stuff will be the fix, follow up with spackling sanding and paint. An 80's house should not have external (stud space) counterweights on doublehung counterbalance windows but I will repeat the usual warning for everyone else, foam insulation can lock up those weights. For modern counterbalance windows, pull the access trim and keep an eye on it as you foam.

-HF

 

[hangfirew8]

Did you inspect the outside unit? My previous unit was a louvered box packed with mower grass but looked great viewing from the inside past the fan on top. After unpacking the dried grass blanket it worked great again.

My other outside unit has the coils viewable from the outside and is trivial in inspect and clean, but I guess is a bit more vulnerable. It just has a wire cage around it.

-HF

 

[jjrbus]

Hired a home inspector in Florida to try and get a discount on insurance, that guy was super good and did not miss a thing!

Bought another house and hired a home inspection for insurance company. What a total waste of money. Under normal circumstances I would have refused to pay for such poor service but I needed the paperwork. Literally had to argue with inspector to show holes in roof in report so I could renegotiate price of house with seller.

I showed real estate agent things the inspector missed such as a Pacific Electric panel that is considered a fire hazard and needs to be replaced and many other little things.

Is there recourse?? Possibly, try to find a real estate lawyer who will try to go after the seller and inspector for a "latent defect" Likely cost of litigation will exceed repairs, but does not cost anything to ask.

 

[rsanter]

Around here anyway. When I was looking for a house I could spot a flip house in less than 5 min.
Workmanship was shotty at best and it was time to run.
So often the flip houses are sortcutted way too much.

On the other hand , with the heat pump heating. You have to see what the unit is rated for. Many units don’t work below a particular tempature and are fine as they are made for areas that don’t get as cold. Other back up to rely on strip heaters that are t be added on if below their spec tempature

 

[aka Larry]

On the other hand , with the heat pump heating. You have to see what the unit is rated for. Many units don’t work below a particular tempature and are fine as they are made for areas that don’t get as cold. Other back up to rely on strip heaters that are t be added on if below their spec tempature

This. When our temps are below freezing, it works, but just barely. If the auxiliary electric strips have to come on to keep up, you can see dollar bills flying out the window. I much prefer NG heat, as it 'feels' warmer, and is usually cheaper, but we don't have HG in our subdivision.

We have a heat pump, but here in eastern NC the temps are not even close to that cold. As a matter of fact if I lived where it was that cold, instead of investing in heating I'd move!

 

[Bretny]

Heat pumps need heat to work. Not much heat out there at -5*. Dosnt it have a backup electric heater? If so and its still not keeping up you can get bigger ones.

We only see -1* every other winter or so and i wouldnt use just a heat pump with no electric backup. But our primary heat is a wood stove so we stay warm even on the coldest nights with no power.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Thanks for the suggestions, hopefully it keeps up. The filter is one of those five inch thick jobs.

Now I’m hoping her radiator doesn’t freeze if it hits -30 when she goes to work tomorrow morning. I told her to watch the temp gauge so it doesn’t overheat. She looked at me like I was out of my mind.

Most likely that’s about where the mix is at.

Now I'm confused. Radiator? You said she had a heat pump...

Tommy

 

[ford33]

I don't think it is undersized. If a -20 F degree day is not typical then the furnace will run often to keep the house warm on those very cold not typical days. I don't want my furnace and AC sized for the worst case situation. It will be over sized 99% the rest of the year. Let it run longer for the few days when it is very cold or very hot.

 

[McFarmer]

Now I'm confused. Radiator? You said she had a heat pump...

Tommy

Sorry, switched the topic to cars.

Lots of things go to heck at 20 some below.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

So our daughter bought a house in town for herself and two kids. Guy who sold it bought it to flip, nothing wrong with that. She had a home inspection.

We’ve found several shortcuts he took, nothing serious until now. He put an electric heat pump furnace in it. Not keeping up at 5 below, expected to get to 30 below tonight. Runs continuously and temp is falling.

Plumbing and heating guy was out this morning and said everything is working fine, furnace is simply undersized.

Looks like home inspector might have caught that ? Installer might have said something ? I’ve never been around an electric furnace before.

Just something to check before you buy.

Home inspectors - they are kind of hit and miss.
Example - We bought a house in 1986. Hired home inspector and he gave it all an "okay". Made some boilerplate comments about the usual stuff: age of roof, etc.
Fast forward about 3 months - I am working on a ceiling fan install/upgrade. I go in the attic over master bedroom. There was not a bit of insulation in that ceiling area.
So what apparently had happened is that some kind of termite infestation had occurred and the cleanup removed everything in that attic space over master BR. I wasn't irritated that there had been termite damage (and treatment) - these things happen, and can be treated.
But when I contacted the Home Inspection company they refused to take any responsibility for their neglect in finding this (no notes in their files, as best I could determine).

 

[nsula_country]

Sorry, switched the topic to cars.

Lots of things go to heck at 20 some below.

Where are you located where it drops to -20*F?

CT

 

[ddawg16]

Sorry, switched the topic to cars.

Lots of things go to heck at 20 some below.

If she can't put the car in the garage, then park it as close to the garage as possible.....and cover the front of the car.

If she has a drop light with an incandescent bulb, hang it inside the engine bay next to the radiator. It will help a little.

By parking close to the garage door, the temp is a 'little' warmer....and by covering the car with a blanket after she parks it, she keeps the heat inside the engine bay in there a little longer. Maybe have her start it and let it idle for 20 min before she goes to bed.

 

[McFarmer]

If she can't put the car in the garage, then park it as close to the garage as possible.....and cover the front of the car.

If she has a drop light with an incandescent bulb, hang it inside the engine bay next to the radiator. It will help a little.

By parking close to the garage door, the temp is a 'little' warmer....and by covering the car with a blanket after she parks it, she keeps the heat inside the engine bay in there a little longer. Maybe have her start it and let it idle for 20 min before she goes to bed.

Yeah, no, I’m talking about when your car over heats while driving down the road when the radiator freezes.

Iowa will see -31 tonight -58 wind chill. Not very many coolant mixes safe much below -25.

 

[JRC3]

Yeah, no, I’m talking about when your car over heats while driving down the road when the radiator freezes.

Iowa will see -31 tonight -58 wind chill. Not very many coolant mixes safe much below -25.

Cardboard. The newer the car the more difficult though.

 

[Bretny]

Home inspectors - they are kind of hit and miss.
Example - We bought a house in 1986. Hired home inspector and he gave it all an "okay". Made some boilerplate comments about the usual stuff: age of roof, etc.
Fast forward about 3 months - I am working on a ceiling fan install/upgrade. I go in the attic over master bedroom. There was not a bit of insulation in that ceiling area.
So what apparently had happened is that some kind of termite infestation had occurred and the cleanup removed everything in that attic space over master BR. I wasn't irritated that there had been termite damage (and treatment) - these things happen, and can be treated.
But when I contacted the Home Inspection company they refused to take any responsibility for their neglect in finding this (no notes in their files, as best I could determine).

Sounds like you may have been better off keeping your money in your pocket and doing your own inspection. If an inspector dosnt come with a ladder i would send them home. There not going on the roof or in the attic.

I did my own home inspection and my sisters. There were major flaws but we knew that going in and the price offer reflected that.

 

[Jim greengo]

Are there a back up gas furnace or just an air handler for the heat pump?
Is there heat strips in the air handler?

 

[ForceFed70]

Cardboard. The newer the car the more difficult though.

That won't help unless the car is kept in a heated garage and you're only worried about it freezing while it's being driven around. If it's going to be outside overnight, cardboard is just a waste of time.

 

[Jim greengo]

Good find. Plugged filter reduced air flow and was causing high limit switch to cut out resistive. Lesson learned, filter cannot make it 7 months!

I tell my tenants to change the filters when they pay the rent (mortgage)...

CT

 

[Jim greengo]

The most basic and probably the most common cause of forced air HVAC problems.

Even though it's undersized I bet now it keeps up enough to keep it tolerable. I'd go buy her a case of filters, now she knows the importance of replacing them regularly.

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

Just got back from picking up the kids so she can go to work.

Not an old house, 1980s sometime. The main elements are working, the heat pump part isn’t a factor at 5 below. She put a new filter in in June, after she moved in. I picked up a new one from the shop and we put it in.

Temp rise at the elements checked OK, it was tripping the elements off with the old filter. Furnace guy said it’s small enough it most likely won’t shut off and will struggle tonight when it gets to 30 below, 58 below with wind chill.

Don’t know the BTUs, didn’t ask. Anyway, the previous owner put the furnace in, most likely thought it would be big enough. Probably not that uncommon.

We farmers have a well deserved reputation of making everything heavier and bigger than needed.

You should change the furnace filter monthly.....


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[Jim greengo]

Now I'm confused. Radiator? You said she had a heat pump...

Tommy

I think hes talking about her car.

 

[JRC3]

That won't help unless the car is kept in a heated garage and you're only worried about it freezing while it's being driven around. If it's going to be outside overnight, cardboard is just a waste of time.

You mean like I quoted and was replying to?

Yeah, no, I’m talking about when your car over heats while driving down the road when the radiator freezes.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7690121&postcount=30

 

[Innovate1]

I have found home inspectors to vary a lot. Some very thorough and some not. But having something in their report carries more weight in getting it fixed or a price reduction than just my saying it so I think it is worth doing it. I still do my own inspection as I often see things they miss.

I agree that they are almost never going to catch an undersized HVAC system.

 

[McFarmer]

You should change the furnace filter monthly.....


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Not at $30 a pop.