new gravel driveway

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So as I continue to plan my detached garage, I will need a new driveway for it.
Attached is current state before the rain set in and we had to call it. Wet clay is a mess to work in. Currently it is 315 feet long and 12 feet wide.
There is a slight slope from right to left. The right side is dug down about 6-8 inches and the left 4-5". I did buy a roll of geotextile WF200 (local equivalent) that is 12.5' wide and 432 long.
So can I use just #57 gravel in layers? I was told that since I am using the fabric, I don't need to get the larger stone as a base layer.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Piggywutz]

I have never used fabric in place of the rip rap. On our build for the driveway and parking area, the excavator stripped off about 8”. He then back filled with a layer of rip rap, a layer of shale, and layed 2a modified on top to smooth. The drive is solid, packs well, and has no water standing on top. It drains very well.

 

[jpcjguy]

I have never used fabric in place of the rip rap. On our build for the driveway and parking area, the excavator stripped off about 8”. He then back filled with a layer of rip rap, a layer of shale, and layed 2a modified on top to smooth. The drive is solid, packs well, and has no water standing on top. It drains very well.

Rip rap around here is helmet sized! You used that as the base? Here is the local stone yard and what they called riprap: https://www.luckstone.com/products

 

[Bighead38]

Yeah I can’t imagine rip rap as a base. Whoever told you to not use a base layer is wrong imo.

 

[Crawlin]

Fabric works well but you need to use at least 3 or 4" of ABC or "crusher run" for a base then top it with a couple inches of 57 which will drain and keep it less dusty than leaving just a base course. If it is very soft, fabric followed by 3 or 4" clean stone is often used with good results. I would wait a little while after putting down the ABC before you top dress with clean stone to allow it to pack and settle in. I am in NC with similar soil and have built many driveways and roads.

 

[why worry]

Out here in the pacific northwest fabric is a must unless you plan on putting down lot's and lot's of rock to develop a base. Pull the top soil back 6 to 8 inches, fabric, 3-5 inches pit run, then top with 3/4 minus for a nice smooth surface.

 

[egdede]

I'd use what your quarry calls 'surge' over the wf200. That'll do'er

Correction: TommyK makes a good sense argument for smaller stone a few posts below.

 

[Bondo]

Hi all,

So as I continue to plan my detached garage, I will need a new driveway for it.
Attached is current state before the rain set in and we had to call it. Wet clay is a mess to work in. Currently it is 315 feet long and 12 feet wide.
There is a slight slope from right to left. The right side is dug down about 6-8 inches and the left 4-5". I did buy a roll of geotextile WF200 (local equivalent) that is 12.5' wide and 432 long.
So can I use just #57 gravel in layers? I was told that since I am using the fabric, I don't need to get the larger stone as a base layer.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Joe

Ayuh,...... What's the heaviest vehicles you expect to be usin' this driveway,..??

If nothing but cars or pickups, you'll probably be Ok with yer plan,......

If heavy equipment will be usin' it,.....
I suggest ya box it out to 1' deep,.....
Lay down yer fabric, 'n put down 6" of 4" minus crushed rock,....
Then 4" of 2" minus,..... 'n cap it with 3/4" minus, up to finished grade,....
Compacting after each lift of course,......

 

[Notgrownup]

Fabric works well but you need to use at least 3 or 4" of ABC or "crusher run" for a base then top it with a couple inches of 57 which will drain and keep it less dusty than leaving just a base course. If it is very soft, fabric followed by 3 or 4" clean stone is often used with good results. I would wait a little while after putting down the ABC before you top dress with clean stone to allow it to pack and settle in. I am in NC with similar soil and have built many driveways and roads.

^^^This is what my son in law used alone without fabric but his base was not red clay. Leave that crush n run to pack down for a while and it’s almost like cement, makes a great base for whatever is next.

 

[jpcjguy]

Thanks for all the replies. As for use - it is residential. My diesel Excursion will be the heaviest regular vehicle. Of course for the building of the garage, the concrete truck and a crane truck for the trusses will go on it. But that is a 1-2 time occurance.

So the consensus is to use what my local supplier call "surge" (https://www.luckstone.com/products) as an initial layer, compact and then let that settle in and top with #57 clean.

 

[ZipSnafu]

I have a 300 + foot driveway that started out as clay/muck. I used surge and then after a while put down 57 and it worked out really good for me.

 

[Bondo]

Thanks for all the replies. As for use - it is residential. My diesel Excursion will be the heaviest regular vehicle. Of course for the building of the garage, the concrete truck and a crane truck for the trusses will go on it. But that is a 1-2 time occurance.

So the consensus is to use what my local supplier call "surge" (https://www.luckstone.com/products) as an initial layer, compact and then let that settle in and top with #57 clean.

Just looked at that page, 'n see "surge" listed Nowhere,......

Which is why I said Crusher run, 4" minus, 'n 3/4" minus for topping,.....

 

[jpcjguy]

Just looked at that page, 'n see "surge" listed Nowhere,......

Which is why I said Crusher run, 4" minus, 'n 3/4" minus for topping,.....

Interesting. Did you scroll down? It is listed under "Large Open Graded Aggregate"

 

[Bretny]

I would throw some large rock in there, dif names in dif areas. But i would use 4in, then do your garage and let the trucks pack that in. Then do your top dressing. You will know if you need fabric by then.

 

[TommyK]

The surge stone won't have any fines so it won't compact. It is generally used where standing water is present. From your description of the prep work it sounds like the lift thickness on one side of the driveway is only 5 inches or so. If that is correct you will probably not want to use a material that has a max aggregate size over 2.5 inches. The surge stone around here is typically 5 inch minus so if yours is similar it is probably not ideal for what you are doing based on lift thickness. With the separation fabric you can probably use all #57 or something a little coarser if the subgrade stability is at issue..

 

[jpcjguy]

The surge stone won't have any fines so it won't compact. It is generally used where standing water is present. From your description of the prep work it sounds like the lift thickness on one side of the driveway is only 5 inches or so. If that is correct you will probably not want to use a material that has a max aggregate size over 2.5 inches. The surge stone around here is typically 5 inch minus so if yours is similar it is probably not ideal for what you are doing based on lift thickness. With the separation fabric you can probably use all #57 or something a little coarser if the subgrade stability is at issue..

That was my initial thought. As for the one side being less than the other, that is to compensate for the slope from right to left. In certain areas, on the left side - looking at the the photo, I will probably add some dirt on the edge and "feather" it out into the grass so that I get a "level" driveway. So while the left side is only dug out about 4-5" inches, it will end up being 8" or so of stone. This will then match the right side height. Hopefully that makes sense...

 

[Bondo]

Interesting. Did you scroll down? It is listed under "Large Open Graded Aggregate"

Ok,.... Found it,.... it Ain't what you want,....

Ya need the fines left in it for compaction,......
hence My recommendation, 4" minus,.....
That would be the surge stone, right outa the crusher, before it passes the screens,....

'n with yer dig-out,.....
We call that Box-out,...
The box-out should be to 8", 'n it should self-drain, all by itself,.....
Then put in the fabric, 'n layers of stone,......

If the box-out is self-draining, you won't have sittin' water, which turns clay, into soup,....

 

[MattN03]

Thanks for all the replies. As for use - it is residential. My diesel Excursion will be the heaviest regular vehicle. Of course for the building of the garage, the concrete truck and a crane truck for the trusses will go on it. But that is a 1-2 time occurance.

So the consensus is to use what my local supplier call "surge" (https://www.luckstone.com/products) as an initial layer, compact and then let that settle in and top with #57 clean.

I just did this exact thing. I don't remember the rock size (#4 maybe?), but the base was bigger stone like what is shown in the pic of "surge" stone. I then went back with #57. I poured a little bit of #9's in one area over the 57's and that made it even smoother. I think with a little time and traffic, the 57's will be good, but it they are a little hard to walk on, you could put a light amount of smaller #9's to lock the 57's in place even more.

Over all, I'm very happy with the fabric, "surge" stone, and #57's. I just wish the rest of my driveway was done this way as it's a nasty mess right now, and the drive going to my shop is great.

 

[sanddan]

We have clay under about 6" top soil and our driveway is fabric over the clay and then 4-6" 1" minus with another 4" of 3/4" minus. The clay will not absorb water below about 1-2" unless you DO NOT HAVE good drainage. I would keep the sideways slope on the new drive to keep standing water off. My drive has been in for 25 years and never a soft part or any other issue. The clay is a very stable base to build on, at least it has been for me. My shop was built on the clay that was scraped down when we leveled the site (pole barn) so 3/4 of the shop is on the disturbed clay. 4-6" 3/4" minus gravel over that for a base and then the concrete. No cracks or shifting in the 36'x48' slab. The clay is a btch to dig in during the summer as it turns rock hard and water does not soak in but runs down hill on top of the clay. I think the fabric was the key, all of my gravel parking areas and drive have that as a base.

 

[machsnell]

I just did this exact thing. I don't remember the rock size (#4 maybe?), but the base was bigger stone like what is shown in the pic of "surge" stone. I then went back with #57. I poured a little bit of #9's in one area over the 57's and that made it even smoother. I think with a little time and traffic, the 57's will be good, but it they are a little hard to walk on, you could put a light amount of smaller #9's to lock the 57's in place even more.



Over all, I'm very happy with the fabric, "surge" stone, and #57's. I just wish the rest of my driveway was done this way as it's a nasty mess right now, and the drive going to my shop is great.

Your guy did a nice job cutting out the driveway.

It all depends in the cbr of the soil. That reddish clay seems to be fairly solid even though saturated.

Short answer-

- Yes fabric although not necessary.
- You dont want 57's.(solely)
- Surge stone (vdot #3) for construction traffic min of 4" for some strength
- if a small garage and not much strength needed for lots of big trucks/forklift trips then install vdot 21a stone now, or once your subgrade dries out.
- Finish with vdot 21a for smooth driving surface after Construction
- if you cant wait for it to dry then fabric and #3's and choke it up with some 21a on top just enough to get 3's to start to lock up.


Long answer

So its cut 4 to 8 inches deep. I assume this means the grade of the dirt (subgrade) and its current cross slope is the way the road will be only you are 6 or 8 inches off of finish grade? So you will install your section (depth) of driveway and you will be back filling on the edges that are only cut 4 to 5 inches since your driveway (section) is 6 or 8 deep.

If it were an average dry summer you could probably get away with fabric and 4" of vdot 21a and be solid as a rock with weight rolling over the stone daily keeping in nice and tight.

If you are building now or spring probably best to shoot for an 7 inch section of stone.

Install your fabric and 4 or 5" of vdot #3 stone then choke it up with a skim coat of 21a. With your dimensions of 420sy you have roughly 25 tons per inch installed of material. So for stone and delivery to you ?? $20 ?? Per ton you are $500 per inch of stone. Rough rough number.

This will have you fairly solid for average type construction traffic and allow you to be below your finish grade elevation.

That way once done you can grade the 3s and 21a mix flat and smooth and install 1 to 2 inches of fresh 21a over it and it will be good.

You dont want to have subgrade too high because as you add this stone your driveway becomes elevated from existing grade and requires fair amount of backfill.

With it going left to right I imagine you will want to keep that water flowing as it does left to right. If you raise the driveway on the high side you cant get the water to sheet flow across driveway. It will run down the driveway

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[machsnell]

I would throw some large rock in there, dif names in dif areas. But i would use 4in, then do your garage and let the trucks pack that in. Then do your top dressing. You will know if you need fabric by then.

I forgot to add that I usually take 8's, 9's, or 68s/78s and sprinkle over 21a by garages/foot traffic areas. It is so easy to spread letting it trickle over the edge of the bucket. No real grading required other than having the 21a noce and smooth beforehand.

It is easier to walk on than 57s and looks much nicer.

My guys just installed more 3's and cattle guard at a construction entrance yesterday. It is required by the county for commercial entrances

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[MattN03]

Your guy did a nice job cutting out the driveway.

Thanks! That guy was me on my little Kubota B3200 using a 5' tiller and 5' box blade . Stupid me had a dozer on site clearing for the shop pad and clearing trees and I didn't think to have him cut in the drive while he was there. I was so mad at myself a few days later lol. It's sure nice to have the Kubota around though!

 

[Piggywutz]

Rip rap around here is helmet sized! You used that as the base? Here is the local stone yard and what they called riprap: https://www.luckstone.com/products

Around here it is not that big. About baseball/softball size.

 

[jpcjguy]

So I went to the 2 local yards and it appears that the #3 is commonly used base material around here. So I figure my calculator variables are 12' wide, 315' long x 3" deep for that layer. Based on several online calculators that is around 45 tons or 35 yards. A truck holds about 16-18 yards, so I figure start with 2 trucks and see where I am at.....

now to wait for more than 2 consecutive days without rain!!!

 

[38Chevy454]

I am far form an expert, but around here with the heavy clay soil, it is common to use the larger 3-4 inch size as a base. Whether that will be under concrete, asphalt or smaller gravel, the high clay content needs the larger stone to prevent the small stone form getting pounded into the ground.

I hear ya on the rain, my whole yard is like a swamp right now. Real flat and heavy clay means it is just saturated with all the rain/snow we have been getting. Probably be 3 months before it dries out it seems.

 

[jpcjguy]

I am far form an expert, but around here with the heavy clay soil, it is common to use the larger 3-4 inch size as a base. Whether that will be under concrete, asphalt or smaller gravel, the high clay content needs the larger stone to prevent the small stone form getting pounded into he ground.

I will be using the #3 stone on top of the geotextile fabric. That will go down first.

 

[machsnell]

So I went to the 2 local yards and it appears that the #3 is commonly used base material around here. So I figure my calculator variables are 12' wide, 315' long x 3" deep for that layer. Based on several online calculators that is around 45 tons or 35 yards. A truck holds about 16-18 yards, so I figure start with 2 trucks and see where I am at.....

now to wait for more than 2 consecutive days without rain!!!

315x12 @3" will be 69 tons depending slightly on the density of the rock in the quarry.

Quarries should sell it by the ton not a yard.

Cost per ton should be 14 to 20 per ton. If quarry is within 30ins I would expect 5 bucks/ton to deliver.

Normally not sold by the yard other than by little resellers. Who get it from the quarry.

Call a quarry of you have one.

You are a fellow virginian and the quarry will have quad to 7 axle trucks (stinks) and they will deliver 20 to 23 tons.

Max yardage you can get delivered is somewhere around 15 to max 16 yards.

But dont get it from someone who delivers in yards. Especially if the say they can bring 18 in a truck. Only in a tractor trailer could you get that plus.

Get 3 loads and that should get you. Dont order partial truck

Order some 21a to choke up the 3's. You will need it eventually and this will keep some moisture out and lock the stones in place giving you a tighter drive capable of handling traffic better.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[tarmy]

If you can...get a few extra tons for clean ups after the new drive install. There will be, inevitably, some low spots, soft spots...or failure. Having a little pile off to the side will come in handy. I have a 550’ drive that I sweeten up every other year or so...

 

[jpcjguy]

315x12 @3" will be 69 tons depending slightly on the density of the rock in the quarry.

Quarries should sell it by the ton not a yard.

Cost per ton should be 14 to 20 per ton. If quarry is within 30ins I would expect 5 bucks/ton to deliver.

Normally not sold by the yard other than by little resellers. Who get it from the quarry.

Call a quarry of you have one.

You are a fellow virginian and the quarry will have quad to 7 axle trucks (stinks) and they will deliver 20 to 23 tons.

Max yardage you can get delivered is somewhere around 15 to max 16 yards.

But dont get it from someone who delivers in yards. Especially if the say they can bring 18 in a truck. Only in a tractor trailer could you get that plus.

Get 3 loads and that should get you. Dont order partial truck

Order some 21a to choke up the 3's. You will need it eventually and this will keep some moisture out and lock the stones in place giving you a tighter drive capable of handling traffic better.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Thanks for the detailed info. The local stone quarry (and the largest around) is LuckStone. I got quoted at $21/ton and $103 per load delivery. I think it was a tri or quad dump truck. The $21/ton was for #3, #5 or #57

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I got a quote (the lowest around) for $24/ton for 3" granite surge from the closest quarry but the concrete recycler has crusher run for $11/ton and is just a bit closer. I can get the crusher run delivered for $375 for 20 tons in a tri-axle and the driver can tailgate it out. I'm kinda torn on this given the price gouging on bigger stuff, one yard quoted me $70/ton for 2's & 3's, yikes! The quarry that quoted me $24/ton also said they have a scheduled price increase on March 1st. While I'm in no huge hurry, I am interested in not spending more than I have to as my driveway is eventually going to be ~435' up to the concrete pad when I build in 5-6 years.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Make sure the crusher run doesn't have any metal. You will eventually find every "spear" of rebar or wire mesh, one tire at a time.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Well, I've dropped 10 tons of the entrance surge so far and it looks good, not too hard to plow off the back of my trailer. The only problem is the trailer is small and I can only get 3500lbs. at a time. One the plus side the quarry only weighs you once then you're good for the rest of the week with the same truck/trailer combination so that saves time. The bad part is they just went from $24/ton to $26/ton on March 1st so I'm 8+% more $ for the rest of the driveway (not including topping) and I'm only 89' in from the road so far with another 346' to go. If anything looks wrong to anyone with more experience than me, feel free to let me know what I need to do different.

 

[machsnell]

Well, I've dropped 10 tons of the entrance surge so far and it looks good, not too hard to plow off the back of my trailer. The only problem is the trailer is small and I can only get 3500lbs. at a time. One the plus side the quarry only weighs you once then you're good for the rest of the week with the same truck/trailer combination so that saves time. The bad part is they just went from $24/ton to $26/ton on March 1st so I'm 8+% more $ for the rest of the driveway (not including topping) and I'm only 89' in from the road so far with another 346' to go. If anything looks wrong to anyone with more experience than me, feel free to let me know what I need to do different.

You are picking up less than a ton of 3's in a trailer? Is there a reason you arent getting it delivered?

If I were you I would get the recycled delivered for 18 bucks a ton. Only the super soft areas un you picture needs 3s. Wh as tener is solid will be fine with "crusher run" sort of material. More watertight and smoother to drive on.

Looks fine a little splotchy. Just paint one edge nice and smooth on the limit you want then measure whatever width you have and mark the other side then you can keep nice and smooth and not jagged. I would leave it inside your eventual width a hair so when you grade or put final stone coat down it covers the edge of the 3s.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Bretny]

Not to mention that after a rain/traffic every spot you see dirt through the stone the stone will be gone.

Fabric makes for less stone. In your situation use the fabric.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

You are picking up less than a ton of 3's in a trailer? Is there a reason you arent getting it delivered?

If I were you I would get the recycled delivered for 18 bucks a ton. Only the super soft areas un you picture needs 3s. Wh as tener is solid will be fine with "crusher run" sort of material. More watertight and smoother to drive on.

Looks fine a little splotchy. Just paint one edge nice and smooth on the limit you want then measure whatever width you have and mark the other side then you can keep nice and smooth and not jagged. I would leave it inside your eventual width a hair so when you grade or put final stone coat down it covers the edge of the 3s.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I'm picking up 3500lbs.+/- per load so I can take my time, I'm working with a 5 year deadline and it's keeping me busy.

I'm debating if the recycled stuff wouldn't be a better option, I need more specs before making the switch.

No one down here is using fabric, no one. I don't know why but it is what it is. There is a base of some kind of road used in the past (~20 years ago?) so trying to stay on top of that should allow little of the stone disappearing.

Crusher run or 3/8" screened stone will be the topping after the base is completely compacted and the low spots have all worked themselves out and been filled.