More dumb electrical questions: Sanity check, is this crazy?

[anythingyoucanimagine]

Trying to figure out how to use the internet. My copy & paste from a spreadsheet didn't end up looking all that great so here is a link: https://imgur.com/57wrgLw and I also attached the same thing.


This seems like an insane number of circuits for 100 amp service in a ~1300sf home. Do they even make 100A panels that big? Did I miss anything? Where am I being dumb? Should I combine some stuff?


I am open to any feedback. This is nec 2017 and ahj doesn't have any weird rules on top of 2017.


I guess I'm scratching my head... When I do the math I could put the entire house all on one 15A lighting circuit --but that could end badly if one of my kids does something dumb trying to change a light bulb someday... I feel like I'm in a weird spot where the home should need less but at same time to make things logical I need a crazy amount of home runs/dedicated circuits.


I guess maybe combine all the bedrooms and living room/dinging room wall receptacles? This doesn't feel right.


Also, entryway/mudroom that's 58x44 (inches) square. One wall is longer than 4 feet but shy of 6 feet around corners. Do I need a receptacle on that 58" long wall?


Oh --basements. I've never had a basement before. (slab home and apartments) Other than lighting (and I assume at least one receptacle), are there any requirements for a dirt floor basement with zero utilities in it? Someday in the future we may consider pouring a slab/floor in the basement so is there anything we can do to future-proof it?


I wish everything ran on 48vdc... my life would be so much easier...


Thanks for any constructive comments.

 

[ddawg16]

100A? Electric dryer? Floor heat in the bathrooms (x2)? Electric Stove? 60A to the Garage? Server Rack?

Dude.....100A is not enough

 

[nsula_country]

I'm thinking you need a 200A service minimum. 200A 42 slot panels are common.

Looks like you are going with non-electric primary heat.

Don't see a smoke alarm/CO alarm circuit.

Don't **** with 15a/14ga circuits. Consolidate and just keep it all 20a/12ga.

3 circuits in Bathroom? Is toilet circuit for light in water closet or a heated toilet? Incinerating toilet? Does fart fan have a heater?

To save on circuits and GFCI's, put entire bathroom on a GFCI breaker.

Put kitchen receptacles on GFCI breakers. If any appliance requires GFCI like dishwasher or disposal, use GFCI breaker. IMHO, much more reliable and less prone to nuisance trips than in wall receptacle GFCI. I said GFCI 7 times...

CT

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

100A is fine for that size home. There is no need for more. Maybe 125A or 150A but absolutely no need for more than that.


This is a vacation home so yes it will see big spikes: We will have family/guests and both bathrooms plus stove/kitchen will be used all at once, just like when the kids go to bed the girls will be in the living room, guys will be out in the garage and washer/dryer and clothes dry racks might all be on at same time.

100A is fine for all of that and more. Electric vehicle is really the only thing that might push it over the top.

 

[ripperd]

Don't see a smoke alarm/CO alarm circuit.

I'd keep this on a general lighting circuit, so that if it trips, you will know!

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

You are second person to say 200A. Do I really need it or is it just that the 200A panels are bigger?

Looks like you are going with non-electric primary heat.

yes hydronic oil, once the house is insulated properly it'll be fine. we will keep oil. our kids can deal with it after we die lol.

Don't see a smoke alarm/CO alarm circuit.

should that be dedicated? I included that (but did not explicitly type it) in the 20A "TV/Internet" circuit. We aren't huge TV/movie/theater people, just a couple TV's plugged into the wall. At home I put TV/Internet/Alarm/Smokes all on same circuit --if grid goes out or internet goes out then we get a call. If grid is up smokes are up (well battery too...), if grid goes down we get a call.

Inspector at home didn't say a word about me putting smokes (and alarm) on same circuit as TV/data. (also nec2017).

If nothing else, my kids would probably realize there was no internet faster than smokes can figure out the house is on fire.

Don't **** with 15a/14ga circuits. Consolidate and just keep it all 20a/12ga.

Seriously? I don't mean that to be rude... Are you a sparky? Do you know how much of a pain in the balls it is to shove 12ga into a box?

I guess it doesn't matter. I'm not an electrician so I could be wrong. In my mind I figured yellow = receptacles and white = lighting. Keep everything separate, different runs, nothing combined, cable stakers for whites and different for yellow, etc. White is lights and everything else is yellow (or bigger). With LEDs technically I could put the entire house lighting on one 15a (no ceiling fans).


I asked for feedback and I appreciate it. Thank you. I asked because I don't know and I value the feedback. In my experience, dealing with 12ga and ceiling boxes is a pain in the ***. Do you really think it's worth it to do lighting with 12ga too? I don't really care about the money but I don't have much 12/3. (have almost a full spool of 12/4 that I can't use) Trying to run the numbers in my head about how much 14/3 I'd need vs. 12/3+mwbc... or 12/2/2...

Can I bring 12/2/2 to a workbox then run 12/2 whips? I assume yes? At home I ran 12/4 to workboxes and did 12/2 whips... Shouldn't be any different right??

Bathroom?

I don't remember exactly which fart fan she picked out. It's got a heat lamp, fan, bluetooth speaker, etc. F'ing fart fan will probably end up costing more than a spool of wire.

Mentally I was thinking "someone could drop a hairdryer in the bathtub... don't want them to be left in the dark when that happens" That's why I broke out the lights and fart fan from req. 20a. And yes, incinerating toilet is amazing. I love my wife. She taught herself Python (programming language) and wrote some code to tie in our ecobee motion sensors to the heated toilet seats. When the dogs start stirring in the morning (to go out and pee) they trip the ecobee sensors... and then a raspberry pi tells the toilet to warm up the seat... then she can take a morning pee on a warm seat and my AM poop is always warm and enjoyable. Sorry if too much info, it is an absolutely wonderful indulgence and absolutely worth every penny (even if I end up needing a bigger panel). I highly recommend it. It is awesome. The only other thing I could maybe compare it to is having your own urinal in your garage (I do not have this so I cannot compare).

Put kitchen receptacles on GFCI breakers. If any appliance requires GFCI like dishwasher or disposal, use GFCI breaker. IMHO, much more reliable and less prone to nuisance trips than in wall receptacle GFCI. I said GFCI 7 times...

I'm thinking about a bunch of things. I could be thinking wrong --but still trying to factor in a bunch of thoughts. Dishwasher: I don't give a **** if the gfi trips. If it needs to trip I hope it does. That said, it should be a rare event (never) and if it does trip --the walk to the garage is fine to reset. I honetstly don't want to look at a gfi plate in the back splash.

Heated toilet seats: My kids are idiots. Last year my daughter took a giant sh*t, ran out of TP, used the hand towel and tried to flush that... (she can be a ******* and trust me, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree If heated toilet gfi trips I want the line in to also be dead.

Kitchen: Maybe we someday have waffle iron, toaster oven, coffee maker, blender for ****** mary's, etc. all running at same time. Not that any of those would trip gfi --but maybe I knock something into kitchen sink, etc. It's nice to just push a button and keep on going with breakfast. Same thing when wife is half dressed getting ready to go out. She wants to push a button on a wall plate vs. run out to the garage half dressed.


(knocking on wood) I've never really had issues with gfi. cafci on the other hand... F that. Going forward I'll use nothing but plastic cable stackers and plastic staples. Not insulated staples, the kind with two nails and a plastic top strap. I hate afci.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

I'd keep this on a general lighting circuit, so that if it trips, you will know!

Curious about this. I hear that a lot. I agree with you but I choose to put it with my internet and alarm so I'll get a call from the alarm company.


I don't really want to put lights on same circuit as alarm and internet --but I do yield and accept that the alarm company might not call, I might not have cell service, etc.... and the lights either are on or they don't work.


Am I wrong? Should I move smokes over to lighting?

 

[Warrenator]

I vote for 15 amp circuits for lights, and even that is overkill with the new LED bulbs. But they don't make a 10 amp 16 gauge ROMEX.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

I vote for 15 amp circuits for lights, and even that is overkill with the new LED bulbs. But they don't make a 10 amp 16 gauge ROMEX.

correct but they are starting to make 24vdc or 48vdc PoE LED lights... 24awg cat5e is a little small but short runs...

edit: not 'starting to make', the prices are starting to come down

 

[cleanspg]

I am pretty sure that for NEC 2017 all of your 15 and 20 amp circuits in the house have to be afci protected from the panel for new install. Combo afci/gfci breakers are cheaper than afci breaker and gfci outlet, so you might as well do that. It may help you to limit your circuits knowing that each requires a $40 breaker.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

I am pretty sure that for NEC 2017 all of your 15 and 20 amp circuits in the house have to be afci protected from the panel for new install. Combo afci/gfci breakers are cheaper than afci breaker and gfci outlet, so you might as well do that. It may help you to limit your circuits knowing that each requires a $40 breaker.

Thanks. Doesn't help much though. I have a full "spare" set of afci breakers from prior 2017 inspection that I can use for this house. I don't care about lighting or the rest of the house but in kitchen I swap them out as soon as inspector signs off.

 

[nsula_country]

Not a residential sparky. Previous life Industrial Electrician. Current life Electrical Engineer. Wired our entire 2200 sq/ft house from 320A service pole to the faceplates. 2, 200A 42 slot panels. Both 3/4 full. Also installed 2 heat pumps from ductwork to commissioning.

Reason for saying 12ga everywhere is you never know when you want to expand a circuit. Will probably never happen.

I still stand by dedicated smoke/co circuit. Never know when you have to service one and it ***** to replace one in a dark room. I stare at the green blinking light on bedroom smoke alarm almost nightly, would notice if its off. They have batteries in them too. Also have 2 smoke alarms tied into the alarm system that has battery backup and a cell dialer.

GFCI breakers are cleaner way to install. I have 2 GFCI circuits per bathroom. 1 lights, 1 receptacles.

CT

 

[ddawg16]

100A is fine for that size home. There is no need for more. Maybe 125A or 150A but absolutely no need for more than that.


This is a vacation home so yes it will see big spikes: We will have family/guests and both bathrooms plus stove/kitchen will be used all at once, just like when the kids go to bed the girls will be in the living room, guys will be out in the garage and washer/dryer and clothes dry racks might all be on at same time.

100A is fine for all of that and more. Electric vehicle is really the only thing that might push it over the top.

Really? Do you know how to add?

Dryer.....assume working amps at 20a
Bathroom Floor heat...30a breaker....but assume 20a (x2)
Stove....50a breaker....but assume a working load of 20-35a

The above puts you at 80-95 amps.....and that is with no lighting.....or your office rack.

If you plug in your car.....you will trip your breaker.

So.....going back to your title? Yea, you are crazy to think it will work

 

[cleanspg]

Thanks. Doesn't help much though. I have a full "spare" set of afci breakers from prior 2017 inspection that I can use for this house. I don't care about lighting or the rest of the house but in kitchen I swap them out as soon as inspector signs off.

That seems like a lot of work.
Do you uninstall because they give you problems?
I haven't had any issues with my combo gfci/afci breakers in either the house or garage where I used them in some circuits (even though not required in the garage). I have heard of others having problems with older motors and the like. I don't see where it would cause an issue inside the house though.

I headed others advice to run 12G/20 amp everywhere in my garage. It was nice to have plenty of overhead when I decided to add a large ceiling fan, but cramming the boxes for three way switches etc. was a lot more painful.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

Not a residential sparky. Previous life Industrial Electrician. Current life Electrical Engineer. Wired our entire 2200 sq/ft house from 320A service pole to the faceplates. 2, 200A 42 slot panels. Both 3/4 full. Also installed 2 heat pumps from ductwork to commissioning.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. FYI: I have 208Y at home This is second/vacation home that I'm asking about and this split phase stuff is like learning all over again. Our neighborhood at home was built in the 50's as Navy housing with in-slab hydronic radiant heat. Initially, because neighborhood was so far away from base, as a "perc", the base paid for electricity to the neighborhood. Not sure if it was easier to branch 208Y into the neighborhood (or maybe someone paid someone off and all the houses got 3ph electric water heaters)... This is somewhat common in early military-ish housing neighborhoods. We are in New England but the early AC units were mostly 3ph. There are a few other neighborhoods like ours out west that were build back in the 50's. There's your fun fact of the day... Rumor has it they chose 208Y because it was closest to 120/240 split phase... (I bet someone paid someone off and it had nothing to do with that)


Anyway thanks for the reply. I don't have an issue bumping up to 200A service --except the house is set back pretty far (two poles), I'd want to bury it... and longer-term I'd rather put panels on the roof than put metal in a trench that hopefully won't be used (someday).


This is my first time working with 120/240 split phase. Also my first time working with a two story house with basement. (our home is single story slab attached garage)

Reason for saying 12ga everywhere is you never know when you want to expand a circuit. Will probably never happen.

I would rather run a new circuit than combine lighting with other **** --but yes. I understand. Maybe I'm so OCD it's hurting me. I look at the 14ga as a limiting factor. Yes I could put 12ga on 15A circuit... but then in the back of my mind I could always bump up the breaker and expand the circuit. I like that it is at capacity, serves a purpose --and that someday a handyman (or my kids) can't hack into it (or they will hack into it and burn the house down).

I still stand by dedicated smoke/co circuit. Never know when you have to service one and it ***** to replace one in a dark room. I stare at the green blinking light on bedroom smoke alarm almost nightly, would notice if its off. They have batteries in them too. Also have 2 smoke alarms tied into the alarm system that has battery backup and a cell dialer.

At home I combined the TV/Internet/Data/Alarm/Smokes because mostly the alarm and then second the generator. Was much easier to have all that tied on one circuit. I do see your point about splitting stuff out --but to what end? Where is the balance between a HR for everything and a branch? What I'm having a hard time with is how many circuits I'm drawing out --and how small the house is. But... smokes with 10 year batteries means I might have to change them... christ --maybe 5 times before I die? yeah maybe I'll break out the smokes

GFCI breakers are cleaner way to install. I have 2 GFCI circuits per bathroom. 1 lights, 1 receptacles.

Is that a commercial thing? I get what you mean but then all the stickers and if you ever had to push a button I feel like a wall plate is much easier than walking out to a cold garage.

I thought you didn't need lights (and fart fan) to be gfi in bathroom? I'm pretty sure my bathrooms at home one has lights jumped off line side of gfi receptacle (was too lazy to run a proper whip down from attic) and the other has lights and fart fan not gfci protected. Maybe I'm wrong --maybe I'm not compliant and inspector missed it??


Where you have two gfci circuits per bathroom, I have essentially one and then other stuff. The bathroom rule is that the required circuit can do everything or just be receptacle (can't share rooms, etc.) so I have one 20a bathroom circuit running to a workbox, then to gfi receptacle, then (yeah I see your point about a breaker being cleaner...) the way I did it was line runs to gfi receptacle then essentially I ran a gfci protected whip back up to a workbox, then out to the branch from there. Yes, in hindsight, would have been much cleaner to use a breaker. I learned something today. Thanks.


So my bathrooms have just that one 20a branch with partial gfci and lights/fart fan jumped off the line side so no gfci for them. Then the toilet and heated floor stuff are no different than any other dedicated home run.



It just seems crazy to have that many circuits for such a small home.

 

[s14kev]

Don't **** with 15a/14ga circuits. Consolidate and just keep it all 20a/12ga.

I like this idea in theory and did so for my garage. I'm no electrician but after working with 12GA, I can see why I would stick to 14GA when appropriate. It probably took me more than double the time to do 12GA vs 14GA. Maybe you folks are much stronger than my weenie little hands but 12GA was a pain to bend and pack into boxes. If I was an electrician, I would charge substantially more to wire the whole house in 12GA than use 14GA when appropriate.

 

[anythingyoucanimagine]

Really? Do you know how to add?

Dryer.....assume working amps at 20a
Bathroom Floor heat...30a breaker....but assume 20a (x2)
Stove....50a breaker....but assume a working load of 20-35a

The above puts you at 80-95 amps.....and that is with no lighting.....or your office rack.

If you plug in your car.....you will trip your breaker.

So.....going back to your title? Yea, you are crazy to think it will work

I guess thanks?? You are probably right. At home my toys managed to trip 100A 208Y breaker but only if range/oven, microwave, dryer, dishwasher, AC and then welder.... That was also terrible wiring and neutral not balanced. I rewired and went up to 225A at same time but I feel like maybe I could have just rewired and didn't need the 225A service. 100A 208Y is a lot. A properly wired residential home shouldn't need (much) more than 100A. If you need more than that it'll be a fun electric bill.

assume working amps

When you calculate wire gauge and overcurrent protection amounts the NEC doesn't let you assume. With Listed devices it's pretty simple math. I do realize that 100A is on the light side of what I'm mapping out but also at same time I feel like 200A is overkill.

I can absolutely see us coming home from a day of skiing, hiking, (doing whatever) and being tired, wet, cold, hungry, car charge is low, etc. Kids come in, strip then run to showers/baths (floor, toilet, etc.), wife heads to kitchen and starts oven, microwave, etc. I'm running the washer & dryer getting clothes done/clean while at same time car is plugged in, etc.


Yes it'll be on the upper end of 100A but that's only when the stars and moon are aligned. 98% of the time the house will be empty.


idk. I'm not trying to argue. I'll go back and redo the numbers for all my circuits. Maybe I'm being dumb and I missed something obvious. First time around the numbers seemed fine.

 

[nsula_country]

Sorry, did not multi post.

Why run 12 and use a 15? 15 and 20 breakers cost the same. Just 12 and 20.

Folding solid wire in boxes is a residental issue. Industrial is mostly stranded. Actually leaving solid a little long using deepest boxes you can use folds in easy.

Reason for 2 bathroom GFCI circuits is 1 for sink receptacles. 1 for lights and fart fan. Each bathroom either have a can light fan in shower or chandelier over jacuzzi.

In 7 years, 0 GFCI breakers have tripped. AFCI maybe a dozen. I know why (long story, induction and 2, 27kw tankless water heaters).

Did not think about military bases. Barksdale AFB is in Bossier Cith, LA. Home of the B-52's. But Shreveport, LA (across the Red River) has older, upper class neighborhoods that have 3p service. Was told it was for early central air conditioning...

CT

 

[nsula_country]

200A is modern standard service. Only multi-family units like apartments and condos have 100A services.

CT

 

[acer66]

I'd keep this on a general lighting circuit, so that if it trips, you will know!

What if you do not have the lights on during the day or the middle of the night?

 

[nsula_country]

What if you do not have the lights on during the day or the middle of the night?

Right?

CT

 

[theoldwizard1]

I might have missed this, but if you have counter space on both sides of the sink, the outlets must be on separate 20A GFCI protected circuits. Refrigerator does NOT require a separate circuit and I have not seen a residential refrigerator that needs more than a 15A circuit (if you are going to use that circuit for something else that might justify a 20A circuit).

Separate circuit for bathroom light and fan ? Overkill.

20A circuits for any wall outlet IMHO is a waste. My house is all 15A circuits. the only time something trips is when I am running a heater on a circuit that also has a refrigerator (yesterday was the first time in years).

I would not go an less than 150A for the main. 200A will give you some cushion. With all of those 240V circuits, I would use tandems on the 20A and 30A ones.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I might have missed this, but if you have counter space on both sides of the sink, the outlets must be on separate 20A GFCI protected circuits.

No, code doesn't say this. They can be on the same circuit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They can be split up any way the designer pleases

 

[ripperd]

What if you do not have the lights on during the day or the middle of the night?

Then you find out the next day when you try to turn the lights on again?

The goal here being that when one starts chirping, you can't just pull the battery and flip the breaker off to silence it, and then forget about it for weeks or months and have unpowered smoke alarms when the house starts burning.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Seriously? I don't mean that to be rude... Are you a sparky? Do you know how much of a pain in the balls it is to shove 12ga into a box?

If you're having trouble "shoving" 12awg wire into a box, your boxes are not properly sized, or you're not folding your wire in properly.. Use deeper boxes or 4sq boxes with mud rings. Box fill is actually a thing, it's not a test to see IF you can cram it all in there.

And no, I'm not a sparky.

 

[D.J.]

Make sure you sure house w / 240 volt plug in in utility room for your Tesla or Leaf electric car.

 

[MattT]

idk. I'm not trying to argue. I'll go back and redo the numbers for all my circuits. Maybe I'm being dumb and I missed something obvious. First time around the numbers seemed fine.

What you're missing is the electric car pulling 50A only leaves you 50A to run the house. You do laundry while your wife cooks supper and it's gonna pop the main breaker if the car is charging at the same time. You could probably get by with 100A service if you manage your loads but it doesn't sound like you want to do that. And even if you did good luck getting the wife and kids on board

Beyond that your plan looks pretty reasonable regarding number of circuits. "Overkill" now will be a lot easier and cheaper than correcting deficiencies later.

One thing that did throw a flag is your 240v 30A circuits for bathroom radiant. That sounds excessive for what I'm guessing are fairly small bathrooms.

 

[TRWham]

A few things:

Why the separate 120V to the range?

If you previously managed to trip a 100A 3 phase main, then you certainly need more than 100A 120/240. I know it's a different house, but you probably didn't have an EV then.

Smokes are usually tied to something you will notice tripped.

I would use 14 gage where appropriate. If it was big enough when lighting was all incandescent, it is certainly enough with CFLs/LEDs. Many GJers must own copper futures given the way they want to run big, fat wires everywhere.

I don't know what floor heat you are planning for bathrooms, but we use Schluter and it's only 120V and 20A typically. Tile heat usually just takes the chill off- it does not get your floor scorching hot.

Some bath fan/light combos must be on a GFCI. The box or specs will spell that out.

A combination AFCI (CAFCI) is not the same thing as a dual function CAFCI/GFCI, it's just a smarter AFCI. Current (2008 and later) code essentially requires CAFCIs rather than AFCIs but they provide less sensitive ground fault protection and do not meet the requirement for GFCI unless they are specifically dual function CAFCI/GFCI. Be sure you are using the correct breaker or breaker/receptacle combination to provide the protection you need.

 

[acer66]

Then you find out the next day when you try to turn the lights on again?

The goal here being that when one starts chirping, you can't just pull the battery and flip the breaker off to silence it, and then forget about it for weeks or months and have unpowered smoke alarms when the house starts burning.

I understand, I just went into a rental where in the darker half basement no ceiling light worked and all the smokes were pulled because when they took out the old batteries instead of replacing them and the smokes kept peeping.

The smoke detectors I have in my own place let me know when the power is out.