"S.R." Sockets? Can't seem to find any info.

[Plombob]

They are nearly identical in construction and finish to the Plomb WF-38 and WF-21. Differences (e.g., screw heads, selector) are very minor. I don’t know of anyone who has ever taken a Proto WF ratchet apart, but I’d be curious to know if the guts (cam, pawl dogs, gear, gear bosses, etc) were the same. My bet would be yes, whereas the early generation true Proto production corollaries (5249, 5449) were different. In terms of markings, some of the examples of Proto WF ratchets are stamped with “PROTO” on the face plate, others have it forged on the topside of the handle where the old “V PLVMB V” logo was, and some have been found with a “v PLVMB v” forged handle and a “PROTO” stamped face plate.

Here ya' go Lugnutz! The guts are the same.

View media item 61655
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[Private Lugnutz]

can I join the club

Yes. There's only one fee - and you already paid it! We're going to have a big party when the mystery is solved and hand out awards to the collector with the most pieces!

Here ya' go Lugnutz! The guts are the same.

Thanks for the disassembly, Bob!

 

[T_Curlee]

I find the slight differences between the markings on the socket pictures posted yesterday interesting. Lug's sockets show some S.R. logos with square corners like mine, others have rounded corners. Nothing big, but interesting. The stamping on Mr. Teenagers socket in the second picture looks different, with the size stamp much larger than most of the other S.R sockets. While it may well be the lighting, the stamping also looks a bit more raised, like it was stamped after the outside of the socket was buffed/polished. The sockets I (and Lugs) have almost look like the markings were etched, but I'm sure they were stamped, then the raised edges ground or buffed down flush with the OD of the socket. Could S.R. be a trade mark only and the sockets were manufactured by different forging shops?

 

[Teenager with old tools]

I find the slight differences between the markings on the socket pictures posted yesterday interesting. Lug's sockets show some S.R. logos with square corners like mine, others have rounded corners. Nothing big, but interesting. The stamping on Mr. Teenagers socket in the second picture looks different, with the size stamp much larger than most of the other S.R sockets. While it may well be the lighting, the stamping also looks a bit more raised, like it was stamped after the outside of the socket was buffed/polished. The sockets I (and Lugs) have almost look like the markings were etched, but I'm sure they were stamped, then the raised edges ground or buffed down flush with the OD of the socket. Could S.R. be a trade mark only and the sockets were manufactured by different forging shops?

Or maybe they're different eras. It was my grandpas and that's where I got a few of the plomb wrenches from. He lived in El Monte almost his whole life which is near l.a. Along with many protos. He was a diehard local company guy so most everything pre 80 he has was from local all newer is craftsman. Sr seems old so it would be California company almost sure. I'll ask my other grandpa who is slightly younger than the one who passed that I got some plomb from.


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[Private Lugnutz]

I am posting my small, humble and somewhat old BLO-mottled collection of [S.R.] 1/2-inch drive sockets here for RagTopTA to look over. They are, from left to right, 15/16", 7/8", 13/16", 11/16" (missing it's [S.R.] marking), 11/16" deep (w/cadmium plating), and 1/2".

 

[Username already in use]

Here's a few pieces for discussion. Cross posting from the Plomb thread HERE with some additional discussion.
The [S.R.] stamped ratchet is obviously Plomb made, as is the universal joint. The 1/2" drive socket looks like it's WF marked counterpart.

The lot came with a long extension , t-bar handle, and sliding T with similar finish, but otherwise unmarked. The sliding T is consistent with it's WF marked counterpart as well.

 

[4xdog]

In the bicycle world of the 1970s-1980s, SR would have stood for the Japanese component maker Sakae Ringyo. Most of what they did was aluminum alloy componentry, and any tools I've seen have been very bike-specific.

I'd say zero chance that's the SR on your sockets!

 

[d42jeep]

I apparently missed this thread until reminded about it by Lugz. Here are my SR sockets I posted on the Plomb thread.
-Don

 

[6PTsocket]

I asked this question a while back and some one suggested Sturtevant Richmont, the torque wrench company.

I have seen no definitive proof yet like a socket box or anything. They had to have come packed in something.

Sturtevant and Richmont did not merge until 1974. Those sockets look pretty old. Dunno.

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[6PTsocket]

If I had to guess, I'd back Sturtevant Richmont given the proximity of Richmont in Monrovia to Plomb-Proto in L.A. during the WF era.

Do they look post 1974? That is when Stutevant and Richmont(owned by
Cleco) merged.

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[Private Lugnutz]

Consensus on production is mid to late 1940's, 6PTsocket. Sturtevant-Richmont covered in post #37.

 

[r_olson_06]

Re: "S.R." Sockets? Can't seem to find any info.

Bump

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[RubiconJK]

Thanks for bumping this. I had mentioned earlier on the Plomb thread some conjecture on my part for the Sears Roebuck theory, but can see some earlier posts here from Lugz regarding doubts this would apply. I had also made the connection with the Hinsdale SR numbering scheme and so perhaps that might still valid. I believe SR for Hinsdale might have stood for "Service Regular". SM was "service midget" etc.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks for the bump, Roy. I hope you don't mind me moving your comments from the Plomb thread to here...

Is there a military name that would fit the SR?

It's an interesting idea, Roy. Nothing pops immediately to mind, but it's not a path I have gone down before, probably because I've always thought of the marking as a logo. Collectively, we tend to go right for the mysterious initials, but the marking is not just the initials. As you guys know, it is the initials, with period marks, in a rectangular box. [S.R.]. And as such, it looks like branding to me, not mere nomenclature. There is a difference. Tools made and marked by Plomb with a "WF-" series number for their contracts with the US Army Air Corps, which was HQ'd at Wright Field during WWII, were branded Plomb. Tools made and marked by Wright with an "AC" for their contracts with the US Army Air Corp, were branded Wright. There are other examples of military markings with other agencies, and none of them could be mistaken for branding or a logo. Just my two cents.

I had mentioned earlier on the Plomb thread some conjecture on my part for the Sears Roebuck theory, but can see some earlier posts here from Lugz regarding doubts this would apply.

Hey, don't let my doubts stop you. I have no authority than you or anyone else on this or any other matter. Not to be the naysayer or wet blanket, but as long as you (and Roy) bring it up again (vis-a-vis the Plomb thread), I will just re-summarize for your consideration and others what I think is problematic about it.

Sears, Roebuck & Company was not a brand. Craftsman, Dunlap, Fulton, Companion, etc, were brands. Sears, Roebuck & Company never branded their tools in this era (late 40's) or prior with their own name. And much later, when they did start co-branding them with the corporation name, it was SEARS. There is no known precedence for Sears, Roebuck & Co. to use initials as far as I know. And again, while it's easy to go straight to the initials in the analysis on this topic, hypothetically speaking, if Sears, Roebuck & Co. were going to contract with Plomb to make a parallel line of sockets to the Craftsman Circle-U marked series with surplus "WF" tooling, and if they were going to atypically forego their usual practice of branding (e.g., Craftsman, Dunlap, etc) for this line and mark it instead with some representation of their own name as a brand, does it really seem reasonable that this - "[S.R."] - is what they would come up with?

Again, I could be dead wrong. Just saying why I have a hard time with the theory.

I had also made the connection with the Hinsdale SR numbering scheme and so perhaps that might still valid. I believe SR for Hinsdale might have stood for "Service Regular". SM was "service midget" etc.

I'm not following you on this theory, Rubicon. I don't know if there is a direct translation for "SR,", but the "SR" series was Hinsdale's standard 1/2-inch drive 12-point sockets. As you have noted, they continue the scheme from there. For further example, they also made "SQR" (4-point, or square) and "SPR" (spark plug) series sockets at that time. The Hinsdale "SR" had no period marks, it was not located in a rectangle, and it was accompanied by model numbers indicating the opening sizes. Conversely, we have never found any square or spark plug sockets marked "[S.Q.R.]" or "[S.P.R.]". Lastly, Hinsdale didn't make these sockets. They are without a doubt made by Plomb. (Besides the resemblance, measurements have proven it.)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

This might give the Sears Roebuck theorists some hope.

I have found a few instances in a 1922 Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalog where it appears that they are referring to themselves with the initials "S.R." in print at least. See Pics 1 & 2.

That's not the same as marking products that way, and it would mean more, even in print, if it was in the same era as the tools in question.

Maybe someone with late 1940's era Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogs could check those. The CD that guy was selling here was advertised as searchable. Maybe someone can run a search on "S.R." and see what pops up in the late 40's. I know Rileysan has a copy but I haven't seen him here lately.

 

[d42jeep]

As I posted on the Plomb thread, I found my third SR socket at an estate sale on Friday.
-Don

 

[RubiconJK]

Thanks for the bump, Roy. I hope you don't mind me moving your comments from the Plomb thread to here...


It's an interesting idea, Roy. Nothing pops immediately to mind, but it's not a path I have gone down before, probably because I've always thought of the marking as a logo. Collectively, we tend to go right for the mysterious initials, but the marking is not just the initials. As you guys know, it is the initials, with period marks, in a rectangular box. [S.R.]. And as such, it looks like branding to me, not mere nomenclature. There is a difference. Tools made and marked by Plomb with a "WF-" series number for their contracts with the US Army Air Corps, which was HQ'd at Wright Field during WWII, were branded Plomb. Tools made and marked by Wright with an "AC" for their contracts with the US Army Air Corp, were branded Wright. There are other examples of military markings with other agencies, and none of them could be mistaken for branding or a logo. Just my two cents.


Hey, don't let my doubts stop you. I have no authority than you or anyone else on this or any other matter. Not to be the naysayer or wet blanket, but as long as you (and Roy) bring it up again (vis-a-vis the Plomb thread), I will just re-summarize for your consideration and others what I think is problematic about it.

Sears, Roebuck & Company was not a brand. Craftsman, Dunlap, Fulton, Companion, etc, were brands. Sears, Roebuck & Company never branded their tools in this era (late 40's) or prior with their own name. And much later, when they did start co-branding them with the corporation name, it was SEARS. There is no known precedence for Sears, Roebuck & Co. to use initials as far as I know. And again, while it's easy to go straight to the initials in the analysis on this topic, hypothetically speaking, if Sears, Roebuck & Co. were going to contract with Plomb to make a parallel line of sockets to the Craftsman Circle-U marked series with surplus "WF" tooling, and if they were going to atypically forego their usual practice of branding (e.g., Craftsman, Dunlap, etc) for this line and mark it instead with some representation of their own name as a brand, does it really seem reasonable that this - "[S.R."] - is what they would come up with?

Again, I could be dead wrong. Just saying why I have a hard time with the theory.


I'm not following you on this theory, Rubicon. I don't know if there is a direct translation for "SR,", but the "SR" series was Hinsdale's standard 1/2-inch drive 12-point sockets. As you have noted, they continue the scheme from there. For further example, they also made "SQR" (4-point, or square) and "SPR" (spark plug) series sockets at that time. The Hinsdale "SR" had no period marks, it was not located in a rectangle, and it was accompanied by model numbers indicating the opening sizes. Conversely, we have never found any square or spark plug sockets marked "[S.Q.R.]" or "[S.P.R.]". Lastly, Hinsdale didn't make these sockets. They are without a doubt made by Plomb. (Besides the resemblance, measurements have proven it.)

I certainly defer to those of you who have done the homework and research as my comments are just mostly "spit balling" possibilities!
As far as the Hinsdale reference, my point is that maybe the SR is just a simple acronym for something like "service regular" as in the Hinsdale case? The flaw in this theory is that I would think we would also be seeing 3/8" and 1/4" drive sets resembling the 1/2" SR, but marked differently. I can't remember, but are you guys seeing more than just 1/2" marked as SR?

This might give the Sears Roebuck theorists some hope.

I have found a few instances in a 1922 Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalog where it appears that they are referring to themselves with the initials "S.R." in print at least. See Pics 1 & 2.

That's not the same as marking products that way, and it would mean more, even in print, if it was in the same era as the tools in question.

Maybe someone with late 1940's era Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalogs could check those. The CD that guy was selling here was advertised as searchable. Maybe someone can run a search on "S.R." and see what pops up in the late 40's. I know Rileysan has a copy but I haven't seen him here lately.

Maybe, just maybe! After reading some of yours and other comments, I do tend to agree though that particular trademarks of Sears Roebuck and Craftsman would seem to contradict.

 

[r_olson_06]

I certainly defer to those of you who have done the homework and research as my comments are just mostly "spit balling" possibilities!
As far as the Hinsdale reference, my point is that maybe the SR is just a simple acronym for something like "service regular" as in the Hinsdale case? The flaw in this theory is that I would think we would also be seeing 3/8" and 1/4" drive sets resembling the 1/2" SR, but marked differently. I can't remember, but are you guys seeing more than just 1/2" marked as SR?



Maybe, just maybe! After reading some of yours and other comments, I do tend to agree though that particular trademarks of Sears Roebuck and Craftsman would seem to contradict.

I am in your boat. I base a lot on gut feeling vs research in facts.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[RagTopTA]

I wonder if maybe they may have been made by contract for a company, like S.R. Dresser Manufacturing Co ? It was based in Dallas Texas and a big oil industry service company looks like. Maybe they got their tools from plomb with a Company logo on them like the WF series ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresser_Industries

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That scenario has been my supposition from the very beginning, Rags. I have gone through several different business directories from that time period, in the "S" and "R" sections, looking for matches. The best guess I can come up with from those lists, reported on the Garage Gazette thread a few years ago, is Sinclair Refining Company. They were huge in the late 40's and had locations all over the US, including Texas, Kansas, Wyoming, Indiana, Pennsylvania and New York. But I have never been able to find any hard evidence.

 

[RagTopTA]

I agree, I think that's just how it went. They were made for a big company for inter-company use. Now to try to complete my set! I want to find some SR wrenches though.....

 

[shanny19]

If Sinclair Refining is in the mix, I’d have to include both Southern Railway, and also Kansas City Southern which used SR as a reporting mark.

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/railroad-reporting-marks

Either of those railroads buying private label tools from a West coast maker......seems dubious, but who knows?

 

[Provincial]

I'll throw in a speculation about PROTO-marked WF ratchets: perhaps Proto was contracted to supply repair kits for existing Plomb WF ratchets after the name change. This may not have shown up as a contract for new tools, but instead for repair parts. In order to keep the original identification, the specification would require that the side plate be marked for the original WF designation, and Proto could not have used the Plomb name.

This would require that the military felt the need to repair ratchets, rather than replace worn ones.

I have some Proto Los Angeles 5285 3/8" drive T-handles that were obviously made for the military.

 

[d42jeep]

In answer to a question asked upthread, two of my SR sockets are 3/8” drive and the one I found on Friday is 1/2” drive.
-Don

 

[RubiconJK]

In answer to a question asked upthread, two of my SR sockets are 3/8” drive and the one I found on Friday is 1/2” drive.
-Don

Good to know. Thanks Don.
Ok...here is another guess. What about "Special Run"? If I'm at Plomb post WWII and left with a gaggle of surplus unmarked WF inventory, maybe this is an avenue to move some product through non-traditional distribution networks?

 

[RubiconJK]

Adding my just found two sockets to the mystery.

 

[r_olson_06]

Have about 6 more sockets buried somewhere.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[alton1911]

according to Alloy-Artifacts.org the "Wright Field" series model WF-38 was made by PLOMB:

http://alloy-artifacts.org/plomb-gallery-p3.html

I have some P&C pieces marked with the WF prefix part number. They seem to follow Plomb part numbers.
The SR marked sockets seem similar but the markings are not anything alike.

Thanks
alton1911

 

[RubiconJK]

I have some P&C pieces marked with the WF prefix part number. They seem to follow Plomb part numbers.

Thanks
alton1911

P&C was part of the Plomb empire.

 

[RagTopTA]

Are there any 1/4 drive tools we know of?

 

[d42jeep]

I haven’t run across any 1/4” drive tools.
Based on this 1954 ad from Liverpool, Ohio that Twertsy posted, I can’t help but believe that the SR brand is simply a price line made by Plomb designed to be sold as an inexpensive product at auto parts stores.
-Don

Here's what I could find in newspapers. Paper date and location in the title of each pic. A search in conjunction with "Sears" produced no relevant results.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The "S.R." in that hardware store ad could be an abbreviation for Sears Roebuck. Newspapers charged by the character, and I found several of them like that. But who knows. It's just not convincing enough for me.

 

[d42jeep]

I’ve never heard of an auto parts store back then selling products that Sears was selling in their catalogs but I guess anything is possible.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

No, you're right. That's where I saw the abbreviation, not newspapers. And in much older catalogs. I posted examples in a discussion on this topic somewhere, perhaps this thread, having to back off comments that Sears Roebuck never used that abbreviation.

 

[RagTopTA]

so doing some googling.. and this came up.. interesting.. S.R. Dresser Manufacturing Co.

Torque wrench - Wikipedia​

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Torque_wrench



A torque wrench is a tool used to apply a specific torque to a fastener such as a nut, bolt, or lag ... Bahr's partner, Pfefferle, was an engineer for S.R. Dresser Manufacturing Co and held several patents. ... Tools should be marked with their torque range and the unit of torque as well as the direction of operation for ...


In 1950 the company moved to Dallas to be in the middle of the gas and oil industry! Maybe,,, they had their tools contracted by Plomb, who did have a factory in Dallas around war time as per a lot of the catalogs.

 

[RTM]

I know the Sturtevant Richmond link has been squashed a bit, but the Monrovia link caught my eye, having grown up there. Poking about a bit, seeing where they were relative to where I lived and went to school was interesting. As others have said, Richmont was founded early by Livermont, but companies with both names lived at the same address at 922 S Myrtle. In 1961, both were bought by Reed Roller Bit of Texas.

Lots of this is from snippet view publications in google books

According to
Petroleum Engineer International Volume 33, Issue 13
"Reed Roller Bit Co . has acquired Livermont Inc . and Richmont Inc . , both of Monrovia , Calif . Extensive patent rights for hand torque ..."

And then.
Electronic News Financial Fact Book & Directory 1963

"During March 1962 , Richmont Incorporated of Monrovia , California ( purchased by Reed in 1961 ) was dissolved and their operations fully integrated into the Cleco COMMON ..."

in a 1962 version of
Instruments & Control Systems Volume 35 there is a listing for

"Richmont Products , Cleco Tools Div . , Reed Roller Bit Co. ,"

(I was hoping to tie this back to ~1974 Sturtevant merger noted above, but ran out of time and dog patience. They need to be fed , and walked)

We are back, and on a better computer for searching

Looks like the Sturtevant Richmont merger was closer to 1970, as I am finding lots of references in 1970 magazine / trade journals about them being together. Narrowed my window from 1960- 80, drew nothing much earlier. 1965 had them listed, but not together, then a drought til 1969.

In 1970
Space Aeronautics Space/aeronautics Volume 54, Issue 1
"Compare and consider the advantages of STURTEVANT RICHMONT STURTEVANT / RICHMONT Nondestructive inspection and diagnostics become the key concepts as designers...."

Wire and Wire Products Volume 45
Talk of a transfer "Dresser Industries William Prinz Co. of New York Testing Laboratories to sales representative , Sturtevant and Richmont Torque Products Div ..... " (Their bold, who owned SR I assume)

Materials Research and Standards Volume 10
"William Printz proudly sells the following products : Torque Tools and Calibration Precision Load Positioners Dresser Industries Sturtevant Torque Tools Del Mar Engineering Laboratories , Richmont Torque Tools Hydra Set Division Pre - Fab..."

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I know the Sturtevant Richmond link has been squashed a bit,

A bit? The company's own website includes a video of their separate histories, stating that they merged in 1974. I suppose your 1970 ads reveal the company's own website could be in error, unless something legal lingered for four years before it was technically complete. But that's splitting hairs and false hope. I have a 1964 P.A. Sturtevant catalog when it was clearly still a separate entity. The "[S.R.]" sockets are clearly much earlier, with most collectors agreeing on late 40s or 50s and no later.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I think just a generic brand plomb used to sell stuff, possibly through hardware stores and such. Maybe just stands for sales retail or something. An old plomb memo may surface one day and clear it up!

 

[RagTopTA]

What would you guys think of a GJ group effort. Put an add in each of our areas on Craigslist and Maybe FB market place, "In search of Plomb Employees still living or fam member with company knowledge." If the last Plomb factories changed to Proto around 48 that means an employee at the time with an age of 21 would be 95 now. And a 26 yo employee would be 100. We really don't have much time left to find them. My grand father is almost 96 and his long term memory is great! Short term.... Not very good. Just an idea.....thoughts?

 

[Oldtuleguy]

That's a good idea. Time is running out.