Questions on Hot Water Heater Help

[Motorman55]

This is the current Hot Water heater set up in our new to us (old) house. No basement just a crawl space.

The water heater is 10 years old according to the inspection date of 12/2008. and as you can see it takes up a lot of space in this small laundry/powder room.

There's a timer hooked up to it. The power coming into is just romex thru some type of panel on the wall. Why a timer? Don't know, but its not set, just serving as a sub panel I guess.

The cold water comes up thru the wall, out to the water meter, then back into the wall where it must T-off because behind that wall is the main bathroom.
Then it comes back thru the wall and feeds the hot water heater, then back into the wall to T-off again and feed the main bathroom hot water valves, then it comes back thru the wall to feed the washing machine.

Oh and of course it feeds all the other cold water taps including one line out to the side of the house for the hose faucet.

Also there's a large shut-off valve dropping down from the water meter and that goes down thru the floor and feeds the yard sprinklers. The control unit is that white and green box mounted to the wall.

My question(s):

1. Does it look like there's enough room to install an electric tankless hot water heater on the back wall above the meter? There are upper cabinets mounted just to the right of the sprinkler controller.

2. Can the tankless unit be mounted below the meter? I would offset the sprinkler pipe if it can. I would like to extend the upper cabinets for more storage. If not I would put in a lower cabinet.

3. Are those electric tankless heaters comparable to the water heater shown in available hot water for the washer?

4. Best all round reasonably priced units?


Thanks for any info.

 

[Jim greengo]

I wouldn't think about a tankless electric water heater unless you have a 200a electric service to the house.
They're a huge drain on the electrical service when they kick on.

 

[Motorman55]

I wouldn't think about a tankless electric water heater unless you have a 200a electric service to the house.
They're a huge drain on the electrical service when they kick on.

No 200A panel, per my other Thread its a 150A panel. I would upgrade the panel if necessary.

 

[ForceFed70]

Yes, you could install a tankless heater. Yes, you could install it above the water meter.

I think it's a bad idea tho. The cost of the electrical work will be very high. I doubt it's worth it. Consider an addition if you need more space.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Electric **** a lot of power.

Do you have nat gas or propane?

 

[Motorman55]

Electric **** a lot of power.

Do you have nat gas or propane?

No, the whole house runs on electric.

I averaged about $300.00 electric per month over this winter.

I thought tankless on demand electric water heaters were suppose to be cheaper because your not constantly heating the water tank?

 

[ForceFed70]

No, the whole house runs on electric.

I thought tankless on demand electric water heaters were suppose to be cheaper because your not constantly heating the water tank?

They are more energy efficient, but efficiency isn't the main selling point. People like the idea of "endless supply of hot water"

The problem is that you need lots of power to heat water quickly. For each appliance/tap you want to use at the same time you need to budget about 10KW. Want to be able to have a shower, run the dishwasher, and have someone wash their hands at the same time? You'll need about 30KW. 30KW is 125amps! We're not talking about a run of 12-3 here.

 

[Motorman55]

They are more energy efficient, but efficiency isn't the main selling point. People like the idea of "endless supply of hot water"

The problem is that you need lots of power to heat water quickly. For each appliance/tap you want to use at the same time you need to budget about 10KW. Want to be able to have a shower, run the dishwasher, and have someone wash their hands at the same time? You'll need about 30KW. 30KW is 125amps! We're not talking about a run of 12-3 here.

I understand it can be expensive with a family. Just me and the wife/hand dishwasher. Daily showers, but never when the washer is used. Electric heaters off at night in winter and usually not more then 70o during the day during the winters with zone controls and Central A/C only on hot humid days otherwise the windows are open with maybe a ceiling fan if needed. All LED light bulbs thru out the house and my garage.

This year $300.00 average a month total electric outlay. Little high because the wife's elderly mother is always cold when she comes here for dinner a few times a week. We've been giving here a sweater to wear and keep it at 75o....Ha, Ha!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Telling us what your monthly electric bill is is meaningless because every poco has different kilowatt hour rates.

Since you want to add a large electric load to your service you should do a load Calc to make sure your service can handle the additional load.

 

[Motorman55]

Telling us what your monthly electric bill is is meaningless because every poco has different kilowatt hour rates.

Since you want to add a large electric load to your service you should do a load Calc to make sure your service can handle the additional load.

Just trying to get an idea or two on whether going tankless is a better alternative or just replace the hot water heater since its already 10 years old. Figured there's a lot of guys here that may have done the conversion and could give me a few pointers before I call an electrician/plumber. Of course I would do as much as possible myself to lower the labor costs.

So far I heard that its a large electric load and I will probably need a new 200amp panel and I'll have to run a larger line to it. OK, so that's doable especially since I'm looking to increase outlets in the garage for my compressor, welder and other equipment, so the new electrical panel would be done first.
As for the tankless, what size line? More then the 10/3 I have going to the current heater now? The run from the panel to the laundry room is about 40'. Is there any other ancillary equipment that is required to hook up and run the tankless unit or is all self contained?. Aren't there different size Tankless heaters for smaller homes? Can anyone recommended a name brand from experience?

I'll do whatever is needed if its worth it in the long run. Stating my current electric costs is just to show how conservative we are with our electric use with a little humor thrown in.

We've only just moved into the house last December. We have all brand new 1 month old appliances which are better rated then our old ones in the old house. Now I'm looking to upgrade utilities as needed.

Again, the house is all electric zoned heat and central air to each room controlled by adjustable vents, fans on each ceiling and led lighting thru out.

Again thanks for any info.

 

[ForceFed70]

If it's just you and the wife, you could likely get away with a 20KW heater which is about the smallest they sell as a "whole house water heater".

That's still 83.3Amps to run it. 10/3 is only good for 30 amps.

 

[sberry]

Right now the old one is working, service is adequate for this, why mess with it?

 

[Jim greengo]

No, the whole house runs on electric.

I averaged about $300.00 electric per month over this winter.

I thought tankless on demand electric water heaters were suppose to be cheaper because your not constantly heating the water tank?

It takes a ton of electricity to for the right now affect of tankless,compared to an electric water heater with a tank that gets time to recover.

 

[American Locomotive]

It's not the monthly electricity cost that's going to be much different, it's the install cost that people are referring to. A 30KW tankless water heater is going to need a 200A service minimum - especially considering the rest of your house is electric.

You'd need to tear 40 feet of your walls up to run conduit from your panel to the heater. You would have to buy the 40 feet of 0 AWG copper wire (how ever many conductors the heater needs), and then have it all installed including your new 200A panel.

You'd be thousands up thousands of dollars into this project just to gain a few cubic feet of space in your laundry room.

There are many reasons to go to a tankless hot water heater (including electric ones). Saving a bit of space in a small room probably isn't a good one.

 

[Norcal]

When people are saying 200A service minimum, it's going need more then that & OP is all electric, this is coming from someone who hates propane, but if someone is set on a tankless WH, gas should be considered just because of the huge electric requirements of a tankless model.

 

[Bert_]

Norcal is right if you are all electric and now want an on demand water heater you are probably looking at a 400a service. On demand water heater will be 20-30kw (85-120 amps).

I wouldn't put an electric one in my house.

 

[Motorman55]

Saving a little space wasn't the only reason I was thinking tankless.

First, I thought it would actually save me money in the long run since our hot water consumption is relatively low and not overly expensive to install. Also, I don't like the idea of a large water heater, especially this 10 year old one, sitting next to new hardwood floors and carpeting as there is nowhere for the water to go should it burst ( my previous residences all had full basements with the WH and Panels in them, (This house is part slab and crawl space only. )Then there's the fact this is a laundry/powder room and the tank & safety valve protrudes into the walking space of the room. And since I was already considering upgrading to a larger electric panel anyway, that aspect would be mute (except if as stated it would require a larger then 200A service.) Also had considered installing a small utility sink in that space and rerouting the water lines, etc. etc.


Thanks everyone for your input, helps to get unbiased info before talking to the salesman and installers.

 

[Jim greengo]

When people are saying 200A service minimum, it's going need more then that & OP is all electric, this is coming from someone who hates propane, but if someone is set on a tankless WH, gas should be considered just because of the huge electric requirements of a tankless model.

It depends on the size of house,but I've installed a couple of them in all electric houses with 200a services before.

 

[Motorman55]

I was looking at something like this ECO Smart 18.

Specification: ECO 18 Voltage 240, Phase Single, KW 18 kW,
Amperage Draw
75 A
Required Breaker
2 x 40 A
Required Wire
2 x 8 AWG
Pipe Fittings
3/4" NPT
Dimensions (in.)
17"H x 14"W x 3.625"D
Weight
11.7 lb
Activation Flow
0.3 GPM
Certification
UL-499, ETL Listed
Warranty
Lifetime Limited

 

[Slowgsr]

What kind of temperature rise will that give you at given gpm rates?

 

[Motorman55]

Maybe this would explain better my inquiring into installing a Tankless.

Our hot water heat consumption on average is:

(2) 20min. Showers per day
(2) Full load wash cycles per week
1-2 Gal. one time sink fill and quick rinse per day for hand washing dishes.

That's it, that's all the hot water we use per week.

Wire runs maybe 40 ft., easy access ceiling or crawl space?
Piping run a couple ft.

 

[Motorman55]

What kind of temperature rise will that give you at given gpm rates?

You can go on their site to check, but I think for around here at 108o would be about 2.6 GPM with an incoming water temp here in South Jersey around 52o+
Don't know for sure if its a year round incoming temp..

Again I'm just starting to researching this Tankless thing and just wanting to pick the brain trust here on GJ.

 

[JoeMcGov]

The majority of folks are misled by the tankless water heater industry. You're in that group. The "devil is in the details" is certainly in play with tankless.

8.5 out of 10 inquiries into tankless that I've been around just don't make sense in the final analysis.

Crank up the thermostat on your tanked water heater.

Slightly adjust your behaviors.

Or do a combo of those two ^^.

Then get on with enjoying the season of spring.

 

[Red 17]

With your existing heater you can:
--make use of the timer it is already hooked up to. Have it shut off at night or during work hours, with a restart timed to your schedule
--reroute the T&P pipe--easier said than done, but not a terrible expense.
--install a pan under your water heater, add an alarm to it
--install a water heater blanket to help retain heat

Usually the heaters will develop a tiny leak to start. The pan will catch that. Ditto the T&P valve--they usually start to drip. (If something goes really wrong, they will blow out a lot of water, but that's a bit of a long shot)

Our neighbor had a gas tankless on the side of his house. When the water was running, the flue pipe looked like the heat waves off a locomotive stack. I can't imagine how you "instantly" heat water with electricity without dimming the lights citywide with the amount of power in play. I think that is potentially more dangerous than your current setup. When the neighbor remodeled, he put two tankless gas units in. In brief conversations with the plumbers who were out to service them a couple times, I decided to love my tank job.

ymmv

Good luck!

 

[Motorman55]

The majority of folks are misled by the tankless water heater industry. You're in that group. The "devil is in the details" is certainly in play with tankless.

8.5 out of 10 inquiries into tankless that I've been around just don't make sense in the final analysis.

Crank up the thermostat on your tanked water heater.

Slightly adjust your behaviors.

Or do a combo of those two ^^.

Then get on with enjoying the season of spring.

I'm not in anybody's group. I don't need to adjust my current water heater and I don't need to adjust any behavior and I'm not being misled by anybody. I'm just considering another option to heat water. Thanks.

 

[Motorman55]

With your existing heater you can:
--make use of the timer it is already hooked up to. Have it shut off at night or during work hours, with a restart timed to your schedule
--reroute the T&P pipe--easier said than done, but not a terrible expense.
--install a pan under your water heater, add an alarm to it
--install a water heater blanket to help retain heat

Usually the heaters will develop a tiny leak to start. The pan will catch that. Ditto the T&P valve--they usually start to drip. (If something goes really wrong, they will blow out a lot of water, but that's a bit of a long shot)

Our neighbor had a gas tankless on the side of his house. When the water was running, the flue pipe looked like the heat waves off a locomotive stack. I can't imagine how you "instantly" heat water with electricity without dimming the lights citywide with the amount of power in play. I think that is potentially more dangerous than your current setup. When the neighbor remodeled, he put two tankless gas units in. In brief conversations with the plumbers who were out to service them a couple times, I decided to love my tank job.

ymmv

Good luck!

Thanks, I'm retired, Not complaining about the cost to run the current heater. Don't want to use a timer, not sure it even works. Installed by PO. I've got plenty of hot water. There is a shallow pan under it already that will do nothing should the heater element blow or the bottom rupture.

I'm simply thinking about the option of a tankless unit verses replacing this 10 year old HWH with another one and looking for others experience with one or tech advice.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have you done a load calc?

Absent of that, this thread is pointless to discuss.

 

[Motorman55]

OK, thanks everybody for your input. I'll take it from here.

 

[sberry]

I could install it at cost and,,,, ,, dont.
My fave is lp, power goes out and still have hot.

 

[sberry]

I have 4 main water heaters, 3 gas, 1 electric. 1 gas 40 years old, I electric 40, 2 gas 25 years. Not replacing them till I need to. When I replace I want builder grade replacement. Simple as I can get.

 

[walta]

You may find this chart interesting.

http://www.eemax.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Sizing-MAP.pdf

If you are in Jersey the average water temp is 52° and you want to shower at 117° so the delta is 65° so your 18kW heater will give about 2 gallons a minute shower.

I have a tankless electric water heater but it is a 36kW unit feed from a well, it is great.
If you are on city water you may have 35° water in February with a 18kW heater and a 2.5 gallon shower head you would be having a 85° shower.

Walta

 

[Copymutt]

Big caveat on tankless is the quality of your water. If it’s hard, the tankless will plug up shortly after installation. They aren’t used around here for that reason unless you sacrifice more space for conditioning.

 

[Chukster]

........................

There is a shallow pan under it already that will do nothing should the heater element blow or the bottom rupture.

I'm simply thinking about the option of a tankless unit verses replacing this 10 year old HWH with another one and looking for others experience with one or tech advice.

How about a float switch on the pan and an alarm?

Might save your bacon. And floors.

 

[1MtnGoat]

Question. Why does one need a "hot water heater"? If the water is already hot why heat it? Its called a water heater!

 

[egdede]

Some run 2 tank-heaters to save money. Specifically, the first heater heats cold water and feeds the second tank (which is smaller). That way, small hot water loads like a hand wash are less likely to kick oFf the first heater. In this set up, the second tanked heater would be a 'hot water heater'.